i feel like dante is too good ?

[0_The_F00l]

I was expecting changes , so its not really a surprise when DE admitted it. 

I really really hope it's limited to the overguard cap numbers (on par with the nourish changes) and some bug fixes for noctua (with Galvanised shot)  while they are at it.

I will wait for what they have planned before worrying.

I am also a little baffled by players complaining about the interaction between overguard and pure health damage dependent frames , were they asleep when styanax and frost recieved their bonus effects ? Granted they need to be built for it and can't just generate overguard out of thin air (need enemies)

... I guess it was unfortunate timing that Dante was released at the same time that inaros got a rework , it's like inviting ants and anteaters to the same table. It's going to be un fun for sure.

If there was a light difference between their releases there would be less of an argument on it.

Edited April 3 by 0_The_F00l

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Zaghyr:

Ya the discourse around this is embarrassing. On here, and on reddit. DE says they will do a slight adjustment to ensure he doesn't become dominant, we don't even know what the change is, and everyone is losing their minds. Like WF players get easily triggered when they hear 'nerf', which still baffles me, but all of these posts are just pathetic.

Everyone, not only Warframe players, become triggered by the word "nerf". It is like toddlers when you take away their most beloved toy. At least look at the context and the good of the game as a whole. One frame dominating the meta and 3 other players is not healthy for any game.

[Stomno]

En 28/3/2024 a las 2:48, Ocerkin dijo:

is this your first time playing warframe? this literally happens every time a new frame comes out that isnt staggeringly underpowered, and usually even then youll find someone complaining that if you use it in some specific niche way its to strong. the warframe community is like a bucket of crabs, constantly dragging everyone else down.

This guy says the truth, perhaps some whiners are DE members I think :/

I don't understand why people would want a nerf for a frame when others needs buffs or bugs needs solving and we wait for a loooong time to see them solved (and perhaps you never will)

it's odd that they want to nerf a new frame days since launch and they didn't nerf Voruna, Citrine, Dagath... Perhaps they have a preference, I don't know... I see why everyone's think only female frames are strong.

anyways, Dante is fine, period. This just makes people regretting SPENDING REAL MONEY ON THE FRAME and they will not get a REFUND 💰

[WindShadow970]

31 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

The only reason that Eclipse didn't get nerfed even harder than it did was the noise that got made before it released.  Because I'd bet you that if they hadn't workshopped it, and just released it like they originally planned to, they never would have reverted those changes. 

You just echoed my point, the justifiable uproar began when the actual changes were presented, the "when?" is completely at DE's discretion but all the same we need concrete things first before throwing a fit.

[Xenevier]

11 minutes ago, Rickeay said:

So my personal take is this, yes he does have a bit of overguard, but so does rhino, bit rhino has waaaay more and his slash abilities can nuke similarly to gauss, but gauss is considered balanced and so is dante, Looking at the purpose of Dante is that he is a support frame, and I had to sacrifice a lot of duration, range, and archon shard slots to get him where he is. His overguard is his survivability, and he is an end game frame, my shields and health for Dante is dangerously low, and I get shredded when I forget to cast overguard, especially due to shield gating changes. So if you do nerf him, don't kill his overguard, they are relatively in a good spot, and in endgame content they still get brought down a bit and I have to watch it like a hawk, any less than where it is and it starts moving towards dangerous and frustrating so these are my most important aspects of dante summed up from someone who doesn't want to see him become dissapointing and make sure he stays relevant:

-Dont do too much to his overguard, keep it similar, a few other frames like rhino can get loads more than Dante can with his cap. because in order to get dantes cap high we have to sacrifice most of his stats, including his survival stats like health and shield And it's a big point of playing him and buildcrafting

-The Slash in dark verse and it's combo is nice, and doesn't feel like needing to be tweaked too much, but just keep in mind it's his only damaging ability

-He is an endgame frame, most players get him at the level of Steel Path, Archon Hunts, Netracells, and he needs to have strong enough abilities to match that level of content and thrive in it. Nerfing him too hard might make many players keep them in the dark reaches of their arsenal or just subsume him like in the cases of Styanax, Loki, Inaros, Dagath, or Grendel. 

-He is different, his playstyle is not the run of the mill cast and wait for energy 3 mins later, but it makes the player take into account timers, and allies better than most other support frames.

-He is slow, casting speed and sprint speed. All other frames are way faster and he gets to the fight later, making it important for him to cast early and plan. It helps keep him balanced.

-Finally, He needs to keep his big energy pool. Combining his abilities is not cheap and he needs efficiency mods to keep his energy up right now, and it sacrifices a bit of mod slots to do it.

I enjoy his play style and I think he has the most cohesive kit since Gauss, I hope you keep in mind what I have said when tweaking him, Great Job on this new frame, I know it's a difficult balance, to get a good frame just right. And he is close, good luck! Keep up the good work.

Are you in your right mind comparing a tank frame that his whole kit is roar + big shield to dante ??? you dont have to sacrifice anything for stats, Stretch, continuity and augur mods all give positive stats without taking anything from you, its only strength, and strength is either -duration or -efficiency, dante has insanely high duration anyway and 25 ability costs... my current build has all positive stats at 100% efficiency btw.

your argument is you die when you forgot to cast overguard ... WHAT, thats literally the same for any other overguard character ... rhino or kullervo die as well if they dont cast theirs, and again rhino specifically relies on his OG because that is like 80% of what his kit is. man i dont know what to tell you but by your post it seems less like dante is weak and more like your build isnt good. i sacrificed no stats for having 200% strength, the only negative mod i have is Transient fortitude and still i have positive duration.

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Rickeay:

So my personal take is this, yes he does have a bit of overguard, but so does rhino, bit rhino has waaaay more and his slash abilities can nuke similarly to gauss, but gauss is considered balanced and so is dante, Looking at the purpose of Dante is that he is a support frame, and I had to sacrifice a lot of duration, range, and archon shard slots to get him where he is. His overguard is his survivability, and he is an end game frame, my shields and health for Dante is dangerously low, and I get shredded when I forget to cast overguard, especially due to shield gating changes. So if you do nerf him, don't kill his overguard, they are relatively in a good spot, and in endgame content they still get brought down a bit and I have to watch it like a hawk, any less than where it is and it starts moving towards dangerous and frustrating so these are my most important aspects of dante summed up from someone who doesn't want to see him become dissapointing and make sure he stays relevant:

-Dont do too much to his overguard, keep it similar, a few other frames like rhino can get loads more than Dante can with his cap. because in order to get dantes cap high we have to sacrifice most of his stats, including his survival stats like health and shield And it's a big point of playing him and buildcrafting

-The Slash in dark verse and it's combo is nice, and doesn't feel like needing to be tweaked too much, but just keep in mind it's his only damaging ability

-He is an endgame frame, most players get him at the level of Steel Path, Archon Hunts, Netracells, and he needs to have strong enough abilities to match that level of content and thrive in it. Nerfing him too hard might make many players keep them in the dark reaches of their arsenal or just subsume him like in the cases of Styanax, Loki, Inaros, Dagath, or Grendel. 

-He is different, his playstyle is not the run of the mill cast and wait for energy 3 mins later, but it makes the player take into account timers, and allies better than most other support frames.

-He is slow, casting speed and sprint speed. All other frames are way faster and he gets to the fight later, making it important for him to cast early and plan. It helps keep him balanced.

-Finally, He needs to keep his big energy pool. Combining his abilities is not cheap and he needs efficiency mods to keep his energy up right now, and it sacrifices a bit of mod slots to do it.

I enjoy his play style and I think he has the most cohesive kit since Gauss, I hope you keep in mind what I have said when tweaking him, Great Job on this new frame, I know it's a difficult balance, to get a good frame just right. And he is close, good luck! Keep up the good work.

Man, please play Steel Path and higher and not only level 10 before you make postings like this. You are wrong on nearly every sentence that you wrote and grossly downplaying his strength.

- bit of overguard? no, the overguard is MASSIVE and passively generated without any effort whatsoever

- Rhino can't generate overguard for all teammembers last time I checked, so don't compare

- dark verse if specced with highest strength murders everything non-Eximus in its path already. Dantes 4 is only icing on the cake.

- what makes him an endgame frame? Nothing that you need to do to get him is endgame, nothing. You only need to have some quests finished.

- what is so different on his playstyle? what timers do you need to take into account? You just spawm 334 and everything dies. Nothing special, timing or allies about it.

- there are mods to improve your casting and sprint speed, just in case you did not know

- I am running him with 45% efficiency and don't have any mana problems ever. Equilibrium is enough to make all your energy problems go away

- his playstyle won't change, don't worry, the only change will be that he no longer makes himself and the whole team invincible and maybe, just maybe he cannot nuke the whole room effortlessly any more

[Dunkelheit]

Am 31.3.2024 um 20:05 schrieb Prof-Dante:

but here's the thing, Dante isn't game breaking...

I guess that's what DE gets when they add high effectiveness to a frame that requires more than 2 button presses...

If I do all that effort and don't expect at least some good results then why am I even playing him?

I love it how people argument against nerfs. Always gives me a chuckle.

Dante makes everyone in his group invincible without any effort whatsoever. Since you cannot seem to be able to understand even this, you disqualify yourself in any discussion. Because your interest is most certainly not the good of the game or getting it right, your motive is to keep your toy that diminshes everything else in the game.

[Waeleto]

4 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Dante makes everyone in his group invincible without any effort whatsoever

So does frost/styanax/revenant/hildryn/wisp

[MouthfulOJoules]

What follows is a small collection of somewhat disjointed thoughts on the topic.

59 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Now imagine that 4 players want to have fun and kill stuff together, but one player is hogging 99% of all the kills. Is that "fun" for all other 3 players?

If we follow along that logic, wouldn't it mean that more nerfs are required for khora, mesa, the new nezha, vauban, saryn, nova, limbo (yes, really), octavia etc.? With the right setup and experience you can "hog kills" in many ways and as many frames, while many old frames are relegated to the shelf to collect dust as MR fodder, because of the Nuke+DPS+overguard gameplay focus direction that warframe seems to be moving towards.

Styanax helicopter nerf was sad, him not having the ability to multicast anymore is also sad, but I do understand where it was coming from. Or I did until the Dante release.

I do want to say that playing styanax as an overguard-gifter gets boring as hell, considering that at later stages you're basically locked into keep up nourish and 3, cast 4, keep up your buffs and watch the overguard get 1shot off of everyone, 2 the priority target, repeat.
Dante somewhat fixes that by having more things that you can do, apart from giving og.

I do agree that nerfing new things quicker is better than nerfing them after a few months, but I hope that they are doing more than just looking at usage data on a new, easy to get frame that is very usable before the hype goes away and are taking into consideration that it's even easier for veteran players who've got little to do with new frames except try to see how broken of a build they can make with it asap.

EDIT:

Quote

As long as you post here, you won't vote with your wallet. The "wallet" is a tool for people with an inferiority complex that makes them feel better. If I can give you one hint for your life, don't threaten to do something, do something instead. Threatening is only for the weak.

Totally agree here. And even if you are not voting with your wallet, you are able to vote with your time. if enough players don't agree with the changes that a developer has made, and they leave the game, including both paying and non-paying customers, it gets the attention of the developers. Sadly, players are lacking in that regard and will often stick around, showing the developer that they may have caused some dismay but have not crossed the line because of the sunk cost fallacy or other factors.

Edited April 3 by MouthfulOJoules
Forgot to quote the other message

[Xenevier]

3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

So does frost/styanax/revenant/hildryn/wisp

ah yes, 2 need and an augment to even try to compete with dante and fail to do so, revenant needs an augment to actually share more than 1 stacks and even then needs to use reave on them which 2+3 will put him at the same cost as dante's 2+2+4, hildryn gives 500 shield extra to teammates, dante gives 50,000 and its overguard which is better than overshields. wisp is a support, you'd expect her to do support things, and even then her hp buff+regen is objectively weaker than what dante offers, but please! do go on about how everyone else being strong makes it okay for dante to be too strong too !

[Kronxito]

40 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

The "wallet" is a tool for people with an inferiority complex that makes them feel better. 

Tell that to Bungie. They are about to crash deep into the ground because people got tired of their s*.

They are bringing back the stuff players enjoyed the most in a desperate attempt to get some players back. And they will fail again.

[Waeleto]

10 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

ah yes, 2 need and an augment to even try to compete with dante and fail to do so

really hard to compete with dante, my 57-62k overguard while stripping armor/providing energy isn't enough at all it's so bad they need a buff now

10 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

revenant needs an augment to actually share more than 1 stacks and even then needs to use reave on them which 2+3 will put him at the same cost as dante's 2+2+4

revenant gains extra strength on his mesmer skin and makes the entire squad literally IMMORTAL

10 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

hildryn gives 500 shield extra to teammates

what hildryn gives is a free shieldgate every 2 seconds while stripping ell enemy armor/shields

10 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

wisp is a support, you'd expect her to do support things

yes it's so balanced for wisp to give survivability/speed/cc/nuke the room/have invulnerability and the room to subsume roar/nourish/eclipse over her 4th thus gaining the benefit of precision intensify

Edited April 3 by Waeleto

[MouthfulOJoules]

6 minutes ago, Kronxito said:

Tell that to Bungie. They are about to crash deep into the ground because people got tired of their s*.

They are bringing back the stuff players enjoyed the most in a desperate attempt to get some players back. And they will fail again.

WF is a different beast in that regard, you don't need to drop a metaphorical 1k eur/usd/gbp to get through the content.
If we look at WF as an mmo, then the f2p players are still important to the game, because they are the contrast in, at the very least, fashion and can serve as a measuring stick when it comes to damage/kills/etc that you can skip to faster if you use your wallet. Just because the system is a bit more fair than other ones, doesn't mean that there aren't whaling trends going on.

[Xenevier]

7 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

really hard to compete with dante, my 57-62k overguard while stripping armor/providing energy isn't enough at all it's so bad they need a buff now

revenant gains extra strength on his mesmer skin and makes the entire squad literally IMMORTAL

what hildryn gives is a free shieldgate every 2 seconds while stripping ell enemy armor/shields

yes it's so balanced for wisp to give survivability/speed/cc/nuke the room/have invulnerability and the room to subsume roar/nourish/eclipse over her 4th thus gaining the benefit of precision intensify

idk why you added the pics as if dante's and frost's and styanax's cap isnt the same, any max amount you generate is the same that dante can do, now lets see how fast all 3 can reach their cap ? 

also wow i surely need armor strip when my kit is built around the anti armor element

i dont need to argue with you about revenant being a tank and the fact that he shares 50% of his mesmer skin to allies just like syanax and frost but dante shares 100% of his survivability to allies.

talking to you legit feels like hell because you cant seem to focus on the matter at hand, we're talking about dante being the best survivability character and you say "b-but styanax and hildryn have armor strip!" as if that was even a point to bring up.

and yes it is balanced for wisp to give survivability, speed, but she doesnt nuke the room nor does she have invulnerability, even if we stretch the fact that she makes enemies take more damage and call it a nuke which isnt, where tf did you get the inulnerability from wisp? having room to subsume somehting isnt a good thing, its not like DE says oh lets make a frame and make one ability bad so people can subsume that as a buff! when we talk about frame's balancing, we talk about their base kit not their subsume

[Waeleto]

3 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

talking to you legit feels like hell because you cant seem to focus on the matter at hand

I find everything i provided very important the the matter at hand, feel free to "ignore" it's a feature here for a reason

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 29 minutos, Waeleto dijo:

So does frost/styanax/revenant/hildryn/wisp

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahha. FAIL

[Merrcenary]

1 час назад, Waeleto сказал:

FIX OVERGUARD 

or remove it

[Waeleto]

Just now, Merrcenary said:

or remove it

Why remove it ? frost was literally irrelevant before his overguard augment and styanax was on the way to be caliban 2.0, overguard is a fun mechanic that adds diversity to survivability, i'm honestly tired of the same health tanking setup or shieldgate setup

[Xenevier]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

I find everything i provided very important the the matter at hand, feel free to "ignore" it's a feature here for a reason

i dont care when you talk about the frame as a whole because the whole frame isnt our focus, if you want to focus and believe me me and you had this talk yesterday:

dante also has: 

armor ignoring damage in his kit as a base like styanax does

faster and cheaper overguard gain

overguard regeneration unlike ANY other overguard character

the only frame in the game that has status vulnerablility which is crazy strong at the moment

an exalted weapon that can go head to head with some very solid secondaries we already have interms of damage

an exalted weapon that can be used as the only weapon with more than 1 tome mod and provide supportive capablities 

a nuke with tragedy that can kill SP level enemies with ease in a wide range if you build for it in an AOE and has the same base cost of styanax's 4 but has more aoe and damage and is still slash damage just like styanax 4

so: he has better damage, better overguard, more supportive capabilites and intern lacks an energy generation and armor strip, the armor strip part is null and void as he does slash damage, the energy generation is also null since dante has quite probably the lowest total energy cost of any warframe in the game.

of course styanax needs an energy generation in his kit when his source of damage being his 4 costs 100 energy to cast at base while not room clearing like dante can with 100 energy. i did testing yesterday and styanax needs to cast his 4, 6 times to reach overguard cap while dante needs to cast his 224 only 3 times, which puts him at a need of half the energy styanax needs and less than a quarter of the time styanax needs without the requirement of having enemies nearby as styanax does.

but oh whats the point in arguing with you, you'll find a way to say "dante is also energy hungry" or that "he cant one shot level cap enemies" or how "overguard is useless in level cap" or some random thing, do feel free to surprise me with another one of your comebacks

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

overguard regeneration unlike ANY other overguard character

Because overguard is irrelevant in higher levels this is the only way they can try to make it more relevant 

3 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

an exalted weapon that can go head to head with some very solid secondaries we already have interms of damage

an exalted weapon that can be used as the only weapon with more than 1 tome mod and provide supportive capablities 

It's funny you bring that up when it's literally what people are subsuming over, his noctua isn't even comparable to the exalteds of mesa/sevagoth/baruuk

4 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

a nuke with tragedy that can kill SP level enemies with ease in a wide range if you build for it in an AOE and has the same base cost of styanax's 4 but has more aoe and damage and is still slash damage just like styanax 4

and you have to cast 2 abilities to activate it and again, how much do you think his nuke is gonna last in sp without armor strip or roar ?

5 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

so: he has better damage, better overguard, more supportive capabilites and intern lacks an energy generation and armor strip, the armor strip part is null and void as he does slash damage, the energy generation is also null since dante has quite probably the lowest total energy cost of any warframe in the game.

like i said, if you attempt higher levels of content you need armor strip and you still need a TON of energy regen in your build, dante's gameplay loop is literally just casting abilities of course his energy cost needs to be low

6 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

i did testing yesterday and styanax needs to cast his 4, 6 times to reach overguard cap while dante needs to cast his 224 only 3 times,

mechanics evolve, we're not gonna be stuck with the same mechanic in it's same form for 10 years, the next time they introduce overguard it'll be even better and faster than dante

7 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

but oh whats the point in arguing with you, you'll find a way to say "dante is also energy hungry" or that "he cant one shot level cap enemies" or how "overguard is useless in level cap" or some random thing, do feel free to surprise me with another one of your comebacks

it's funny how you make this SO personal 

[Berzerkules]

Grye was nerfed on release along side the eximus rework. Electricc cc frame that can't cc priority targets.

Then the rotorswell nerf was released when her drops were still bugged and she wasn't actually farmable.

Everybody forget that?

[(PSN)rexis12]

8 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Grye was nerfed on release along side the eximus rework. Electricc cc frame that can't cc priority targets.

Then the rotorswell nerf was released when her drops were still bugged and she wasn't actually farmable.

Everybody forget that?

And then cue Band Aid Augment. 

So I'm waiting for that. 

[Xenevier]

7 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Because overguard is irrelevant in higher levels this is the only way they can try to make it more relevant 

It's funny you bring that up when it's literally what people are subsuming over, his noctua isn't even comparable to the exalteds of mesa/sevagoth/baruuk

and you have to cast 2 abilities to activate it and again, how much do you think his nuke is gonna last in sp without armor strip or roar ?

like i said, if you attempt higher levels of content you need armor strip and you still need a TON of energy regen in your build, dante's gameplay loop is literally just casting abilities of course his energy cost needs to be low

mechanics evolve, we're not gonna be stuck with the same mechanic in it's same form for 10 years, the next time they introduce overguard it'll be even better and faster than dante

it's funny how you make this SO personal 

im not making anything personal, im typing out what you've already told me before in other posts in forums and refuse to accept numbers and facts when argued with. there is an endless amount of stuff you bring up for no reason just to get a response out, as a last note before i go cuz im tired of this back and forth, armor strip doesnt affect dante's tragedy damage, it takes the damage they would have already taken from Slash, Heat, Toxin, and deals it to them instantly instead of waiting, dante only has Slash and Slash ignores armor, so removing enemy armor wouldnt make it do more damage which wont make tragedy do more damage. hope nothing but the best for you, take care

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

So dante is going to be nerfed because he's disruptive, what i assume the nerf is targeted at is his overguard (I HOPE it's the overguard he grants to allies and not himself) and i just want to point out that nerfing 1 warframe isn't gonna make the overguard issue go away, overguard is a fun mechanic for people who use and it's a fresh and new way of survival that doesn't involve health but it contradicts really old mechanics that require health to be damaged so here is the thing:

If you nerf dante's own overguard you've done nothing at all except nerf his own survivability by that standard you should nerf every single tank in the game
If you nerf the amount of overguard he gives to allies then you've also done nothing because he'll prevent these old mechanics from functioning

That leaves 2 options:
1- remove the ability for him to give others overguard at all 
2- FIX OVERGUARD 

Also here's some testing i did with my MAIN builds of frost/styanax/dante, i didn't change these builds to get higher numbers, these are my daily builds that i play with jsut to point out that the problem here isn't dante:

1- Frost:

As you can see, frost is sharing 57k overguard with his allies, ideally i'd want to forma his aura and use growing power but i was too lazy to do so, he was also the slowest in stacking molt augmented using only incarnon torid.

2- Styanax: 

Again, Styanax is sharing 62k overguard with allies, same thing with the aura so you can get more overguard out of this build. He also was the fastest to stack molt augmented using his 4 only and had the least energy issues (he also has the least investment since both my frost and dante have multiple shards including tau while he only has 1 for casting speed).

3- Dante:

And finally dante is sharing 70k overguard with allies, he also is the only warframe with growing power and he was the second fastest to stack molt augmented with his 3-3-4 combo.

My point from all this is to show that dante isn't the issue when it comes to overguard numbers, people are just complaining about him in this particular aspect because he's new and they're seeing it a lot, if one of the other warframes received overguard on release while still being played a lot and tried by many players the same complains would rise at the time.

Nerfing the overguard of 1 warframe or even the 3 of them isn't solving the issue.

I would agree but the thing i know about Overguard is it’s not the best in survivability when it comes to taking hits (shield gating dunks on it anyday), but it supports it by giving you a extra bar/gating and status immunity so you wouldn’t instantly drop to the floor from toxin damage/proc. So it’s not like Overguard is there to make you a god at a certain point (since Overguard isn’t affected by DR), but if it did, you would see a WHOLE lot more Kullervos than Dantes for Endurance Runs.

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

And then cue Band Aid Augment. 

And that's why we need an augment slot but that's a discussion for another day