spintowin2.0

[_Anise_]

Guns were given arcane adapters because they were behind melee in hard content _/

Melee got better with hold to attack _/

Melee have been given arcane adaptors because ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Melee are now vastly superior in hard content _/

why?

 

ps:Guns with single chambers that need to be spammed still exist

[C11H22O1]

The problem is that guns got way better than melee when they got arcanes and more mods now I feel like it's equal. Running a public mission still see people blowing everything with guns

[xXDragonGodXx]

16 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Guns were given arcane adapters because they were behind melee in hard content _/

Melee got better with hold to attack _/

Melee have been given arcane adaptors because ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Melee are now vastly superior in hard content _/

why?

 

ps:Guns with single chambers that need to be spammed still exist

14 minutes ago, C11H22O1 said:

The problem is that guns got way better than melee when they got arcanes and more mods now I feel like it's equal. Running a public mission still see people blowing everything with guns

Melee has been and will always be superior to shooting weapons. regardless of them having the arcanes and tennokai. Saying that Guns became better after receiving some love and care or melee to be better after the recent changes and additions is not recognising that fact at all... so why complain?

[UnstarPrime]

19 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Melee are now vastly superior in hard content _/

Could you share why you think this?  They seem pretty balanced to me, but I'd like to better understand your perspective.  It may also help to define the term "hard content", which means wildly different things to different people in Warframe.

[C11H22O1]

26 minutes ago, xXDragonGodXx said:

Melee has been and will always be superior to shooting weapons. regardless of them having the arcanes and tennokai. Saying that Guns became better after receiving some love and care or melee to be better after the recent changes and additions is not recognising that fact at all... so why complain?

I'm not complaining

[MBaldelli]

48 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Melee have been given arcane adaptors because ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm with @xXDragonGodXx on this...  Melee has always been superior to primaries and secondaries and has been this way since Damage 1.0.  

The primary reason why we got melee arcanes and Tennokai was to entice the players from Destiny II, COD, R6S, and so many other games involving shooting enemies to death was to entice the them out of the rut of running & gunning only and using melee beyond the typical hatred and trolling stigma of bringing a knife to a gunfight.  Whether this is truly working remains to be seen (as we don't see the spreadsheets DE sees with builds and outputs, so we can only go based on limited observation).

48 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Melee are now vastly superior in hard content _/

why?

Again, limited observation based on matchmaking, but I can tell you from my limited observations there's still a butt-load of players still happily running & gunning with nary a knife or sword used by them other than to break open the occasional loot boxes they happen to be standing nearby to.

But this:

Quote

spintowin2.0

You think it's the next META exploit!?!  HAHAHAHHAHAHA I have only one thing to say about this: 

Edited March 30 by MBaldelli

[_Anise_]

43 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

Could you share why you think this?

melee influence on electricity has 20% chance to apply electricity to everything within 20 meters of what the original electrical attack hits

lets use xoris for example, on detinating has a 100% electrical effect, I am not sure how to read this but I think modded my explosion radius is I think 9 meters? so in theory if it hits someone on the 9 meter radius that can hit stuff 20 meters away from that location so it's hitting stuff within 29 meters? (ignoring LOS)

when you throw it into a group say the proc happens on 5 guys out of 20 those 5 guys apply the effect to all 20 guys 5 times, when you throw it repeatedly into large enough groups they start to melt!

the electric aoe thing near as I can figure? is also counted as an melee so when you pair that with xata whisper suddenly this thing becomes crazy!

I have it on dual ichor incanon which leaves toxic patches everywhere ! aoe an entire room and dosn't need ammo, it feels counter to all the nerfs they were doing to AOE guns

 

Edited March 30 by _Anise_

[_Anise_]

11 minutes ago, MBaldelli said:

You think it's the next META exploit!?!  HAHAHAHHAHAHA I have only one thing to say about this: 

I am sitting on a build that I don't want to talk about because I feel like DE will nerf it, it's already been nerfed once, can you guess what it is ?

[UnstarPrime]

8 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

melee influence on electricity has 20% chance to apply electricity to everything within 20 meters of what the original electrical attack hits

lets use xoris for example, on detinating has a 100% electrical effect, I am not sure how to read this but I think modded my explosion radius is I think 9 meters? so in theory if it hits someone on the 9 meter radius that can hit stuff 20 meters away from that location so it's hitting stuff within 29 meters? (ignoring LOS)

when you throw it into a group say the proc happens on 5 guys out of 20 those 5 guys apply the effect to all 20 guys 5 times, when you throw it repeatedly into large enough groups they start to melt!

the electric aoe thing near as I can figure? is also counted as an melee so when you pair that with xata whisper suddenly this thing becomes crazy!

I have it on dual ichor incanon which leaves toxic patches everywhere ! aoe an entire room and dosn't need ammo, it feels counter to all the nerfs they were doing to AOE guns

Haha, I definitely agree that Melee Influence is strong.  I made a thread about it perhaps even being too strong (relative to other melee arcanes), and I was a bit surprised to see that the majority of the replies emphatically disagreed.

Since Melee Influence is the only thing you mentioned in your reply, would it be correct to come to the conclusion that builds with Melee Influence are the only ones you deem as "vastly superior in hard content", and that you see melee builds without Melee Influence as being fine?

[_Anise_]

36 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

Since Melee Influence is the only thing you mentioned in your reply, would it be correct to come to the conclusion that builds with Melee Influence are the only ones you deem as "vastly superior in hard content", and that you see melee builds without Melee Influence as being fine?

Melee influence is the only one I used, I considered duplicate but people did the numbers and said it work's weird and is not worth it, I kinda agree what is the point on only doubling a crit attacks after x seconds when that target is probably overkilled anyway ?

I do think influence melee are superior in hard content to guns, No I am not sure influence is balance and I kinda worry DE will nerf it it some way.

I enjoy how broken it feels, I would rather guns be buffed because DE does not know how to nerf something and keep it fun.

Edited March 30 by _Anise_

[quxier]

47 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

Could you share why you think this?

melee influence on electricity has 20% chance to apply electricity to everything within 20 meters of what the original electrical attack hits

lets use xoris for example, on detinating has a 100% electrical effect, I am not sure how to read this but I think modded my explosion radius is I think 9 meters? so in theory if it hits someone on the 9 meter radius that can hit stuff 20 meters away from that location so it's hitting stuff within 29 meters? (ignoring LOS)

when you throw it into a group say the proc happens on 5 guys out of 20 those 5 guys apply the effect to all 20 guys 5 times, when you throw it repeatedly into large enough groups they start to melt!

the electric aoe thing near as I can figure? is also counted as an melee so when you pair that with xata whisper suddenly this thing becomes crazy!

I have it on dual ichor incanon which leaves toxic patches everywhere ! aoe an entire room and dosn't need ammo, it feels counter to all the nerfs they were doing to AOE guns

Here is the problem. If you don't have large enough group (close enough) then it's "meh". In simulacrum I can melt enemies. In Netracells I haven't seen too much of this "melt".

Same "large enough group" applies to probably lots of things. I don't remember details but:

- Base Sevagoth, group enemies, cast 1/2 and start killing. Heavy gunners (100 or 180) dies quickly. With augment it would be insane... probably.

- Group enemies, start shooting, I think you don't even need full magazine of incarnon for enemies to say "Oh no" (yeah, I had to make pun about Onos).

- Corrosive + k.nukor + Qorvex (?)

There are lots of powerful stuff but require a lot of effort while other just kills. For me influence is not the best. In content I play I don't see too much of its effect.

42 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

Haha, I definitely agree that Melee Influence is strong.  I made a thread about it perhaps even being too strong (relative to other melee arcanes), and I was a bit surprised to see that the majority of the replies emphatically disagreed.

It's too much Hassel to be "too strong". Is there any common build that Dual ichor could do before fix?

[Jivy]

I hope Spin2win never comes back

[trst]

Guns were never lacking in "hard content" pre-gun Arcanes. They just required more investment and your choice of gun mattered a Hek of a lot more than melee letting you pick just about anything and investing nothing more than a Stance mod. Now virtually every gun can casually push into "hard content" just as melee can thanks to gun Arcanes.

Meta chasers will always push for what's "better". Meanwhile anyone who just wants to use what they like and/or who realize everything just deals massive overkill damage don't have to bend over backwards to get some weapons to clear SP.

So as for "why" it's because making one always better than the other was never the point. As well if you really wanted one to always be better then it should be melee considering the inherent disadvantage of having to be in melee range of a target.

 

And as for single target guns there's simply nothing to be done there. WF pushed more into a horde shooter over the years which has never encouraged anything that doesn't clear hordes of enemies. And even then it's not like they're unusable, they're just now the single category that takes more investment than others to see good performance.

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It's too much Hassel to be "too strong". Is there any common build that Dual ichor could do before fix?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this question, could you clarify?  Are you asking if the Incarnon Dual Ichor could be built without Melee Influence?  Or are you asking whether Dual Ichor was commonly used before Melee Influence?

[TeaHands]

I feel like context matters, do people use melee on bosses like Archons or The Fragmented One? 

[quxier]

35 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

It's too much Hassel to be "too strong". Is there any common build that Dual ichor could do before fix?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this question, could you clarify?  Are you asking if the Incarnon Dual Ichor could be built without Melee Influence?  Or are you asking whether Dual Ichor was commonly used before Melee Influence?

No. I'm asking if any melee (or at some big percentage of melees) can do what Dual ichor could do. Dual ichor's toxic field used proc (afair) Influence and vice versa. That deal heavy damage to whole room (if not more). Of course that were too powerful but I don't see anything too powerful on random weapons.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

melee influence on electricity has 20% chance to apply electricity to everything within 20 meters of what the original electrical attack hits

lets use xoris for example, on detinating has a 100% electrical effect, I am not sure how to read this but I think modded my explosion radius is I think 9 meters? so in theory if it hits someone on the 9 meter radius that can hit stuff 20 meters away from that location so it's hitting stuff within 29 meters? (ignoring LOS)

when you throw it into a group say the proc happens on 5 guys out of 20 those 5 guys apply the effect to all 20 guys 5 times, when you throw it repeatedly into large enough groups they start to melt!

the electric aoe thing near as I can figure? is also counted as an melee so when you pair that with xata whisper suddenly this thing becomes crazy!

I have it on dual ichor incanon which leaves toxic patches everywhere ! aoe an entire room and dosn't need ammo, it feels counter to all the nerfs they were doing to AOE guns

 

I just wanna point out that it isnt a 20% chance to apply electricity specifically, it is a 20% chance for electricity status to trigger a buff that guarantees all future elemental (void doesnt count) status procs to trigger on everything within 20m with their modded damage. So all you need for influence to be bonkers is a single electric mod on your melee along with good status chance. It turns weapons like Ack & Brunt Incarnon into a 20m nuke when you slide or jump trigger the spectral axe (which you can spam aslong as you are airborne), and things like Sampotes become full room clear weapons now since slams make use of your modding.

And yeah it is ridonculous on Dual Ichor even after the nerfs that made it unable to spread its own clouds 20m away, since infuence procs that kill still create clouds where it kills. I'm kinda glad they nerfed it, since it was annoying when it started to wander and spread loot all over the map. Atleast now you can control it and lock down chokepoints, since it still produces new clouds as enemies die within the cloud.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

No. I'm asking if any melee (or at some big percentage of melees) can do what Dual ichor could do. Dual ichor's toxic field used proc (afair) Influence and vice versa. That deal heavy damage to whole room (if not more). Of course that were too powerful but I don't see anything too powerful on random weapons.

No, Ichor was unique in that sense and it was because the cloud could proc infulence which could then kill and spawn a new cloud 20m away from the other cloud, so it just spread and spread and spread. Now it just adds clouds within the clouds, which is still powerful and it no longer deals bonus damage on status procs, since influence no longer procs from the damage dealt by the cloud. It still deals alow of damage though and can completely lock down locations to auto-kill enemies as you kill elsewhere with the frame.

There are alot of strong melee weapons though for Influence use.

Bo (Prime) Incarnon

Magistar (Sancti) Incarnon

Ack & Brunt Incarnon

Silva & Aegis Prime

Plague Zaw with high status, can also make Contagion proc influence

Dual Ichor Incarnon

Syam (the heavy attack is no joke with influence)

Sampotes with its crazy heavy slams and slams

Nami Solo Incarnon

Keratinos since it has innate viral plus after heavy attack you have a +3m range buff. Incarnon lite more or less. Other claws work well too since they all have access to super fast stances with multiple hits.

They main thing to consider is finding a stance for the weapons that has moves that hit fast in order to proc the buff and then trigger as many statuses as possible when not using weapon specific mechanics. Crushing Ruin on hammers for instance since the block combo results in a whirlwind, Eleventh Storm for Sword and Board since it hits wider, faster and has better momentum than the otherwise prefered Final Harbinger. After that make sure to mod for status chance, Weeping Wounds should be enough.

And my suggestion would be to use Nourish on the frames you plan to use influence on, unless you have access to a riven for the weapon, otherwise you'll be starved on mod slots if you want to fit both viral and electric. Which is why I use Kullervo alot atm, since I can skip Blood Rush and fit attack speed, reach, viral, electric, weeping wounds, amalgam organ shatter and CO. On other frames it becomes tricky since if I want Blood Rush I'll have to give up something else. A riven easily solves it by grabbing attack speed and one of the 3 elements you need along with something else potentially and a negative if you are lucky.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

It's not as bad as the days when guns were like pea shooters compared to melee. Both methods are at least viable now.

[UnstarPrime]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And my suggestion would be to use Nourish on the frames you plan to use influence on, unless you have access to a riven for the weapon, otherwise you'll be starved on mod slots if you want to fit both viral and electric.

One thing I was surprised to learn is that the damage that Melee Influence propagates to other enemies when a proc occurs is proportional to the amount of damage of that type on the weapon.  So for example, if you've got a weapon that deals 200 slash, 600 viral, and 400 electricity, and you proc viral with the Melee Influence buff activated, 600 viral damage will be dealt to all the surrounding enemies.  With this in mind, one way to strategically build your weapon can be to try to balance your elemental damage so that it leans heavily towards a single elemental type, not only because that will make procs more likely to deal that type, but because then each proc of that type will deal more damage.  I've actually found that in some builds (like on my Bo Prime Incarnon) ignoring Viral entirely and going pure Electricity seems to on average provide better results.

Which isn't to say that adding Nourish into the equation for its Viral multipliers wouldn't result in increased damage (as it certainly would despite its dilution of the status pool) but rather that I honestly don't think Viral is even necessary on many Melee Influence builds.  So I'd recommend folks do tests without Viral to see if that alone gets them where they're going, and if it doesn't then Nourish is something to consider to patch that up.

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-03-30 at 9:19 AM, _Anise_ said:

ps:Guns with single chambers that need to be spammed still exist

Um, what? Most guns only have one chamber. Were you looking for a different term?

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Um, what? Most guns only have one chamber. Were you looking for a different term?

single round chambers? manual fire? sorry I am not a gun nerd.

I was thinking of something like sniper rifles they are slow but their purpose is precision and hitting hard

don't get me wrong I love putting a sniper on and noscoping stuff for fun but they are easily outshined by incarnon weapons and really only have niche uses now ?

Edited March 31 by _Anise_

[TARINunit9]

14 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

single round chambers? manual fire? sorry I am not a gun nerd.

I was thinking of something like sniper rifles they are slow but their purpose is precision and hitting hard

Alright let me try to help by clearing up some basic terms:

A "chamber" is a slot where a bullet fits in. A revolver (Vasto) has multiple chambers. A double-barrelled shotgun (Tigris) has two chambers. Every other gun, literally every single other gun, has one chamber. The Braton, the Latron, and the Vectis, even the Imperator all count as having only one chamber. But there are some more differences

The "action" determines how the trigger behaves and how new bullets are loaded into the chamber after the trigger is pulled. The Braton is an automatic rifle. The Burston is a burst-action rifle. The Latron is a semi-automatic rifle. The Vectis is a bolt-action sniper rifle (the Rubico would also count as a bolt-action in real life, but the game simplifies it to semi-automatic). This works for shotguns too: The Boar is automatic, the Strun is semi-automatic, the Corinth is pump-action. The Tigris (mentioned above) is something we call break-action, that's a bit above this lesson right now

Edited March 31 by TARINunit9

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

One thing I was surprised to learn is that the damage that Melee Influence propagates to other enemies when a proc occurs is proportional to the amount of damage of that type on the weapon.  So for example, if you've got a weapon that deals 200 slash, 600 viral, and 400 electricity, and you proc viral with the Melee Influence buff activated, 600 viral damage will be dealt to all the surrounding enemies.  With this in mind, one way to strategically build your weapon can be to try to balance your elemental damage so that it leans heavily towards a single elemental type, not only because that will make procs more likely to deal that type, but because then each proc of that type will deal more damage.  I've actually found that in some builds (like on my Bo Prime Incarnon) ignoring Viral entirely and going pure Electricity seems to on average provide better results.

Which isn't to say that adding Nourish into the equation for its Viral multipliers wouldn't result in increased damage (as it certainly would despite its dilution of the status pool) but rather that I honestly don't think Viral is even necessary on many Melee Influence builds.  So I'd recommend folks do tests without Viral to see if that alone gets them where they're going, and if it doesn't then Nourish is something to consider to patch that up.

Yeah, keeping one higher than the other is most beneficial. I either try to focus on electricity or viral, with the other stat being just there to place a debuff or proc the arcane. On Dual Ichor my viral is the heavy weighting, since I must remove the lone toxin, so I need to spend atleast 2 mods on that in order for electricity to be free. Might aswell up viral at that point so it grants the biggest hits on each proc while also having a higher chance to proc several times with 100%+ status chance. Then on other weapons viral tends to be the lowest if I need to rely on Nourish, which is easier now since the patch nerf. 45% will only reach the value of a 90% mod on most my frames since they tend to only make use of +100% power strength.

[Raarsi]

Saw the thread title thinking this was another Caliban rework suggestion thread....

As much as I like melee, I'll still be sticking to my Torid Incarnon.  The only melee I think I ever use these days is my Bo Incarnon, and that's only because of an incarnon adapter, a riven, and the fact that I can build it for both crit and status.

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

On 2024-03-30 at 12:07 PM, MBaldelli said:

primary reason why we got melee arcanes and Tennokai was to entice the players from Destiny II, COD, R6S, and so many other games involving shooting enemies to death was to entice the them out of the rut of running & gunning only and using melee beyond the typical hatred and

Want to make melee better? Fix the speed. Im running along then I swing my melee and suddenly I'm slo motion. It's ridiculous. This is my main gripe. The moment you swing it's like you enter a slow portal, only you. 

Faster weapons don't damage enough. Heavier weapons need quickening and berserker unless you have a unique frame like kullervo or sacrifice an arcane spot for melee speed which is conditional. The fact that melee needs two mod slots, an arcane, a possible volt spectre and an incarnon mode to be tolerable is ridiculous. 

Additionally losing everything to a nullifier if you don't one-hit-kill it is annoying.

i like melee but the speedometer fetch is offset too far on the slow side. A slight move to the fast will do wonders.