Deep Archimedea perfectly illurstrates the folly of fully random equipment selection in Warframe.

[TheVoyant]

21 hours ago, FiveN9ne said:

Play without the frame and 1 weapon modifier - problem solved. You won't reach the highest tier of reward, which is fair. In exchange, you can pick any frame and any 1 weapon you want. 

I feel like this is missing the point of all the complaints.

People just want the cheap & lazy RNG to try and force you to use things you don't want to use gone.

It comes across as the Devs literally don't know how to make challenging content so instead they do this.

Why a small chunk of the player base keeps defending this is beyond me. Its fine if you're a hoarding type player who likes this sorta thing... But I'm sorry most don't.

Add challenging endgame modes like we all want and stop with the not letting people enjoy their loadouts fully nonsense.

People were excited at the idea but the execution is completely ruined by lazy design decisions. 

[FiveN9ne]

1 hour ago, TheVoyant said:

I feel like this is missing the point of all the complaints.

People just want the cheap & lazy RNG to try and force you to use things you don't want to use gone.

It comes across as the Devs literally don't know how to make challenging content so instead they do this.

Why a small chunk of the player base keeps defending this is beyond me. Its fine if you're a hoarding type player who likes this sorta thing... But I'm sorry most don't.

Add challenging endgame modes like we all want and stop with the not letting people enjoy their loadouts fully nonsense.

People were excited at the idea but the execution is completely ruined by lazy design decisions. 

How about you and those people provide a solution then? If this is feedback, give ideas.

Tell me, how do you make a mission challenging for a Saryn or Revenant with meta weapons that can destroy literally anything and never die? 

What possible challenge could they face that the player who has the most optimized gear would feel difficulty?? 

Even with all the modifiers of energy drain, no operator use, hp drain, shield regen delay, literally if you turn on all of those it is still piss easy for meta gear.

What if they tried to make you do a forced stealth mission with no HUD and enemies being alerted was insta fail? Would something highly specialized like that be challenging? Probably. Would the playerbase like it? 100% not, because they would all fail. They just enjoy this idea of challenge but if they had to redo a mission 20+ times to complete, that would suck and all the "we have lives no time to play" players would come out that want rewards handed to them. How do you make a challenge that is suitable for a casual player since most warframe players can be considered as such. Aren't the two things contradictory?

So tell me, what is the solution?

Edited April 7 by FiveN9ne

[Lyn.Relamp]

random for all week is fine, we have time to build..., I did deep archimedea with unpotatoed valkyr, decided to build her for elite archimedea then the loadout reset??

[--PV--TrashySmashy]

On 2024-04-04 at 11:44 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

It's a problem of not sufficiently restricting content i think. They're trying to make end game content available to everyone, and that just will always be frustrating for everybody. The big problem is how do you make end game content with desirable rewards without the rest of the playerbase feeling left out.

 

Without this content what do you chase for. I'm in the same place as you, I have a diverse arsenal and this mode is perfect for me. Even better players can farm the same rewards from other content so it isn't a lockout like duviri.

[UmbralHalo]

I just tried the Elite one several times. No matter what squad, we barely got to leave the first few rooms, bc someone always died to the Vampire Liminus Guys and literally no one had a good enough RNG to get a frame that was somewhat able to survive this BS.

Genuinely not fun. I'd much rather play any Jordas Raid from back then with the worst bugs, since that was at least hilarious to watch and talk about when sth stupid happened. 

The Archimedia on the other hand just feels like boring work. Yet another game mode that doesn't respect its players. It's not challenging. It's annoying. Elden Ring was fun. Elden Ring has the perfect kind of challenges. Warframe doesn't. It's bad at difficulty and it's also not a game where I look for difficulty. Especially when the Devs are really bad at making challenging content.

 

Edit: I was able to do Elite now with my clan mates and all of us took one object with them that wasn't random. So no Vosfor or Somali (or whatever it's called...

I googled. Sumdali. Meh. Don't care) for us.

One took his super well modded Angstrum. The other his fave Hate and me with Styanax to keep everyone alive and running. 

Nonetheless super annoying. It wasn't fun. The others also said they won't be playing it again. They only want to play with the builds they love.

Edited April 8 by UmbralHalo
Dunno

[Incarndine]

Circuit 2.0 isnt gameplay, imagine getting a cool weapon or something in some other game and then it just doesnt let you use it anymore, like what? randomized loadouts are a joke.

[Drachnyn]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Lyn.Relamp:

random for all week is fine, we have time to build..., I did deep archimedea with unpotatoed valkyr, decided to build her for elite archimedea then the loadout reset??

The loadout resetting was a bug. It shouldnt happen anymore.

[quxier]

You can always be healer. I got Ash (prime) with Tenet Cycron so I got some damage for normal enemies. It was not enough. I was bad at bullet sponge Necramechs in Disruptions. I was ok with Alchemy.

I have tethering on operator and vazarin (few insta revives, faster revives, healing).

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb quxier:

You can always be healer. I got Ash (prime) with Tenet Cycron so I got some damage for normal enemies. It was not enough. I was bad at bullet sponge Necramechs in Disruptions. I was ok with Alchemy.

I have tethering on operator and vazarin (few insta revives, faster revives, healing).

Do people in this game even still know what it means to play support?

[moondog548]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Do people in this game even still know what it means to play support?

TO BE FAIR... 😅

Game design in the last few years discourage it. Especially warframe design; (Pablo-bless, but...) they are ALL tanker-DPS nowadays.

[TheVoyant]

On 2024-04-06 at 5:20 PM, FiveN9ne said:

How about you and those people provide a solution then? If this is feedback, give ideas.

Tell me, how do you make a mission challenging for a Saryn or Revenant with meta weapons that can destroy literally anything and never die? 

What possible challenge could they face that the player who has the most optimized gear would feel difficulty?? 

Even with all the modifiers of energy drain, no operator use, hp drain, shield regen delay, literally if you turn on all of those it is still piss easy for meta gear.

What if they tried to make you do a forced stealth mission with no HUD and enemies being alerted was insta fail? Would something highly specialized like that be challenging? Probably. Would the playerbase like it? 100% not, because they would all fail. They just enjoy this idea of challenge but if they had to redo a mission 20+ times to complete, that would suck and all the "we have lives no time to play" players would come out that want rewards handed to them. How do you make a challenge that is suitable for a casual player since most warframe players can be considered as such. Aren't the two things contradictory?

So tell me, what is the solution?

Mechanics, Boss Design/Subbosses, Creative Enemies, Better Pathing, Modifiers on enemies. Actually Balance the game so you can create challenges. 

You're asking me for the basics of game design here on a post about feedback on one mode. 

There are dozens of ways to make interesting end game content. Pick one or twelve.

Various Things:

Evolving Endless Towers - Modes similar to The Decent or The Tower in Division 2. Also seen in games like FFXIV.

Modifiable Star Chart with creating your own path - see Path of Exile's end game system of both a skill tree AND maps you can modify.

Modifiers in General - See Diablo Enemies for example. Suddenly you've got a fire chain group of sentients, or cold aura moas, etc.

General Mechanics - A good example is open world champions in Guild Wars 2. Fights that require positioning that shifts as the fight goes on.

True Tower Defense Mode - Create a layer on top of Open World that has just hordes of enemies attacking the gates of Fortuna, Cetus, etc. Would even create the opening for a whole new type of gear. Defenses. 

I mean I could sit here for hours and come up with a lot of track record proven enjoyable mechanics that people farm everyday in a variety of games. 

But its not my job. I'm simply providing feedback about one mode that again is more alienating then anything else. 

[Varzin13]

I don't completely dislike randomly selected gear (as long as it doesn't become the new standard for high level content) but I need the game to meet me halfway and not just leave me stranded with bad loadouts. There's two clear reasons, in my opinion, that SP Circuit works where Elite DeepArc doesn't.

1. The Circuit provides you with decrees that help you bring your build up to snuff with the enemies your facing while DeepArc only makes things harder with it's various conditions which you are pretty much forced to impose on yourself if you want to get the rewards that actually matter.

2. The Circuit offers more options with more then one of them guaranteed to be items you own whereas DeepArc only guarantees 1 item per category. The fact of the matter is not all my gear is built for high level content. Even though I forma all my items I still don't have SP ready builds on everything. And frankly, I refuse to use randomly selected items that aren't mine out of principle, I didn't pour time and effort into improving my gear only to not use it.

I can't believe I'm about to praise Destiny but there's one thing I recall from the old days that might help here, beneficial conditions. Thinking back to daily heroic story missions and weekly nightfall strikes these activities had modifiers that made the game harder but also always had some that made it easier to, things like "primary weapons deal increased damage" or "grenade abilities recharge twice as fast". I could see DeepArc including something like this to help even the playing field.

[0_The_F00l]

In my opinion what it perfectly illustrates is how deeply unbalanced the various gear in the game are.

[FiveN9ne]

14 hours ago, TheVoyant said:

Mechanics, Boss Design/Subbosses, Creative Enemies, Better Pathing, Modifiers on enemies. Actually Balance the game so you can create challenges. 

You're asking me for the basics of game design here on a post about feedback on one mode. 

There are dozens of ways to make interesting end game content. Pick one or twelve.

Various Things:

Evolving Endless Towers - Modes similar to The Decent or The Tower in Division 2. Also seen in games like FFXIV.

Modifiable Star Chart with creating your own path - see Path of Exile's end game system of both a skill tree AND maps you can modify.

Modifiers in General - See Diablo Enemies for example. Suddenly you've got a fire chain group of sentients, or cold aura moas, etc.

General Mechanics - A good example is open world champions in Guild Wars 2. Fights that require positioning that shifts as the fight goes on.

True Tower Defense Mode - Create a layer on top of Open World that has just hordes of enemies attacking the gates of Fortuna, Cetus, etc. Would even create the opening for a whole new type of gear. Defenses. 

I mean I could sit here for hours and come up with a lot of track record proven enjoyable mechanics that people farm everyday in a variety of games. 

But its not my job. I'm simply providing feedback about one mode that again is more alienating then anything else. 

None of that would be difficult to a player with a full arsenal to complete. Things/mechanics on your list do not add difficulty, they're just something you need to perform in a mission. 

"There are dozens of ways to make interesting end game content. Pick one or twelve." - None of that has anything to do with difficulty and that seems to be the trope of these threads that complain about the RNG factor. You yourself said "challenging" endgame twice in your post. I asked what would be challenging in Warframe, you changed your story to fun and interesting instead of challenging.

Edited April 9 by FiveN9ne

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-04-06 at 7:20 PM, FiveN9ne said:

How about you and those people provide a solution then? If this is feedback, give ideas.

Tell me, how do you make a mission challenging for a Saryn or Revenant with meta weapons that can destroy literally anything and never die? 

What possible challenge could they face that the player who has the most optimized gear would feel difficulty?? 

Even with all the modifiers of energy drain, no operator use, hp drain, shield regen delay, literally if you turn on all of those it is still piss easy for meta gear.

What if they tried to make you do a forced stealth mission with no HUD and enemies being alerted was insta fail? Would something highly specialized like that be challenging? Probably. Would the playerbase like it? 100% not, because they would all fail. They just enjoy this idea of challenge but if they had to redo a mission 20+ times to complete, that would suck and all the "we have lives no time to play" players would come out that want rewards handed to them. How do you make a challenge that is suitable for a casual player since most warframe players can be considered as such. Aren't the two things contradictory?

So tell me, what is the solution?

Hi I'm "those people" and I provided a solution right here last week.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392106-class-restriction-instead-of-rng-suggestion-on-how-to-fix-deep-archamedia-design-by-keeping-the-intention-and-removing-the-rng-reward-and-helminth-shard-suggestions-too/

 

Edited April 10 by Redrigoth

[FiveN9ne]

6 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

Hi I'm "those people" and I provided a solution right here last week.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1392106-class-restriction-instead-of-rng-suggestion-on-how-to-fix-deep-archamedia-design-by-keeping-the-intention-and-removing-the-rng-reward-and-helminth-shard-suggestions-too/

 

Like my above response, i do not see how any of that makes it challenging. It is fun and interesting, solves the RNG problem, but it would be just as easy to a player with a full arsenal.