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Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[DE]Pablo

By [DE]Pablo,
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Darkmega18

Darkmega18

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

if you're going to be at it and rewrite LoS, and we either need to have LoS or not have LoS, would it be too much to ask for... both?

Just now I was tossing up an idea of "enemy cover vs powers".

so if In dante's case you have your 30 meters kaboom/buff. but for offensive powers like tragedy that hit AoE around you or a target and take half of the modded distance and let it hit at full power, (15 range) but then if it passes through a solid wall with no vision on the enemy after your new checks the ability only hits half as hard to the enemy on the other side. (or maybe depending on how many of your new raytraces hit their marks? hmmmm?)

then you slap that onto other frames so that we can meet in the middle of where they're either strongly hampered by LoS or frames who don't care about it equally, and it becomes "oops, all LoS but not really maybe" depending on range.

Then if you want to go further you deal out a "you want big nukes? you better mod for it" card of like an "Ability penetration rate" buff and sprinkle it around those who can give buffs to strength etc and let people getting empowered by allies or sacrifice a mod slot or arcane or whatever at the rough detriment to their other stats as a roundabout balance point to improve the percentage of range their abilities punchthrough the level at full power.

complicated maybe, but it's my idea.

Edited by Darkmega18
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RivaAurelius

RivaAurelius

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Yes, I would, Absolutely. That was my entire post earlier in the thread. I literally joined the thread to make that claim.

People are so interested in posting emotional gotchas that they aren't even reading what I wrote in the first place.

And line of sight on saryn's spores would be stupid.

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Wheelhouser

Wheelhouser

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

It's great that you guys are unhappy that you totally screwed something up, but why not address the actual issue that Dante's release, in conjunction with the Inaros rework and Chroma augment, brought to light - many builds DO NOT WANT OVERGUARD.

Dante, as released, was not the problem.  Similar overguard to Styanax, less nuking ability than many frames.  Easy to play, like about half of your frames.  Nothing about him screamed "this is going to break the game", since that's already happened with other frames.

But lots of people brought out Chroma and Inaros, and noticed "overguard everywhere" and didn't like it.  For good reasons.

That is the actual issue, and nothing you guys did yesterday or today is going to change that.

You guys are just intentionally not addressing this, right?

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Ed3mon

Ed3mon

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, MistressOfDreams said:

Did birds get their damage bonus back?

I don’t think they were, but the best way i can describe how it works now is that it kinda spreads out from an enemy, like i had a single enemy visible through a crack and some of the enemy around them where hit, and I’m pretty sure i didn’t see all of the enemies but I’m just one person, more testing needs to be done to see if this update is actually acceptable

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Mayhem-Ivory

Mayhem-Ivory

Posted
Posted

This is a joke. It's nice of you fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

  • Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

  • to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam.

The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone!

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

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MetallicPulse

MetallicPulse

Posted
Posted

Man...

Seriously you guys need to revert it completely and come back at a later date this is just doubling down on not listening. Devs can think clearer with more time to evaluate it's literally the logical solution. You can see how bad the forums are getting and we haven't had an issue like this for a good long time. Digging yourself deeper. "Light nerf" *proceeds to obliterate his kit*

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SudoSamurai

SudoSamurai

Posted
Posted

Come on, guys. Just remove the LoS change. It's asinine to make it especially after the patch note specifically stated you thought the damage he did was fine.

This change guts the fun of Dante and the excitement to keep playing for a ton of us. I'm glad LoS will get fixed for the game, but it needs to be taken off of Dante.

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Ax0r

Ax0r

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Nicely done, I hope this change will reach other abilities with LoS someday.
Thank you Pablo! 😄

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Halo

Halo

Posted
Posted (edited)

Dark Verse is now Line-Of-Sight Checking

It was not doing this before this Hotfix (5.4)

It now is, and makes Dante feel worse to use for that ability.

Remove it for Dark Verse and Tragedy. 

Remove it, for the love of all that is this frame. 

Imagine if Saryn's Spores were LoS checking and could not go through rooms, imagine if her Miasma LoS'd and did not go through rooms, imagine if Frost's Avalanche LoS'd and did not hit enemies in other rooms or behind cover, imagine if TOO MANY FRAMES HAD LOS AND MADE THEM WORSE...

All we ask is to remove LoS from these two... How hard is it to pull back from your AOE-Like Nerf for once?!

Edited by Halo
Clarification
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