Is everyone fine with big overguard numbers?

[Anti-Incarnon]

Yesterday I played a two hour conjunction survival omnia fissure. SP, of course. There was a Dante in the squad. I had 100k overguard throughout most of the match. Not once did I dip below 70k.

To me, these are numbers that aren’t proportional to anything else in the game. It’s just ridiculous to the point that they might as well remove player death as a mechanic and it wouldn’t make much difference.

We really didn’t need extra survivability. We had countless mods, skills with damage reduction, operator mode, shield gate mechanic, last gasp, revives. Worse: All of these things are now rendered meaningless.  Yes,because of overguard the game is reduced in complexity and has less meaningful choices.
 

I am officially only playing solo from here on, except for deep archimedia. To contrast, I had one of the most fun runs in Warframe in that game mode the other day. My squad had all picked every modifier and we had to look out for each other, focus fire on tough enemies and revive left and right. We talked about it in the chat, how great it was to feel like a team again. It isn’t fun to die, but the fact that it can happen makes teamplay, builds and countless mechanics meaningful.

Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that?

Don’t bring up 5 hour SP endurance runs, few are doing them regularly and they’re not something to base balance decisions on. At the 1 hour mark I could facetank an acolyte by myself while being afk to make coffee.

Edited April 10 by Anti-Incarnon

[WindShadow970]

I wouldn't say Overguard is a problem, it's unaffected by any damage reduction modifiers. What those big numbers are showing you however is the EHP most people are running around with on a regular basis. You already loaded into a mission with your defensive layers sorted out then a Dante, Styanax or Frost gives you an extra layer on top which feels very unnecessary at that point for you, but for them it's a core part of their "don't die" plan.

Overguard doesn't make you immortal, layers do and we already had a few layers prior to its addition.

[Genitive]

That's just another thing that pushes power creep even further. Give it a year or two and the deep archimedea will be considered too easy, and people will start asking for another tier of difficulty.

I wouldn't mind if they reigned in player power, but the community will throw a tantrum again.

[Berzerkules]

Considering how hard people hated on the brief iframes from shield gating over the years I'm honestly surprised OG hasn't become the new thing to hate on. 

Or how is a team wide regenerating third health bar ok but any form of crowd control is taking it too far? If both types of abilities effectively remove all threats what's the difference? 

There are so many ways to break the game and it just interesting seeing where people draw the line of what's acceptable what isn't. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

SOME people don't want challenge in their grind. They just want to "veg out" and play the collector game, gathering hundreds of resources to put into building new weapons, frames, and consumables, along with raising standing with factions, focus, and whatever else tickles their fancy for the day.

SOME people want every moment of their gameplay to be on the razor's edge of death, where dodging, always staying on the move, and using cover is key to simply SURVIVING... these players won't find the same frames or game modes fun. They might even disagree on how the game should be balanced... crazy, right?

[Anti-Incarnon]

1 minute ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

SOME people don't want challenge in their grind. They just want to "veg out" and play the collector game, gathering hundreds of resources to put into building new weapons, frames, and consumables, along with raising standing with factions, focus, and whatever else tickles their fancy for the day.

SOME people want every moment of their gameplay to be on the razor's edge of death, where dodging, always staying on the move, and using cover is key to simply SURVIVING... these players won't find the same frames or game modes fun. They might even disagree on how the game should be balanced... crazy, right?

I didn’t feel like stating the obvious. The issue I have is that the game is increasingly leaning towards pleasing the former group. The issue is that the introduction of overguard didn’t solve a problem or add anything to the game. We were already surviving just fine with the layers we had: dmg reduction, shield gate, operator mode, last gasp, etc.

Power creep to a lot of developers is a tool to in order to keep players spending money: the need to buy new stuff to achieve max power and easily beat new stuff.

I expected more from DE, but I really don’t see what else could have been their motivation. Again: Overguard doesn’t add anything apart from incentivizing laziness (why engage with the game and help my squad if I can minimize actions and instead watch netflix and still get my rewards?). It does however take away. It takes away the meaningfulness of all the other layers of survivability.

[Chewarette]

Overguard should have been Overshields since the beginning tbh

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

If you knew the obvious, that the playerbase is divided over issues like this, it should be obvious that the answers you get to your topic would fall into either camp, and both sides will have valid and personal reasons for liking either side of the issue, wishing for their side to be prioritized in decisions of balance.

Now, given that DE has added this, and they're expanding into the market most reliant on forgiving mechanics (cell phones!), you can generally gauge which side DE is going to be supporting the most often. You'll still get your challenging content here and there, primarily left to endurance runs that people have to specifically target and plan ahead for in groups, while the surface level game remains a fairly "easy" grind game, where it's not "IF" you get the loot, but "when" you collect enough.

[Anti-Incarnon]

1 hour ago, WindShadow970 said:

I wouldn't say Overguard is a problem, it's unaffected by any damage reduction modifiers. What those big numbers are showing you however is the EHP most people are running around with on a regular basis. You already loaded into a mission with your defensive layers sorted out then a Dante, Styanax or Frost gives you an extra layer on top which feels very unnecessary at that point for you, but for them it's a core part of their "don't die" plan.

Overguard doesn't make you immortal, layers do and we already had a few layers prior to its addition.

100k is an extremely big layer. That’s the issue. It’s weird how they added 2k overguard to archgun deployment with a five minute cooldown, which one would think could be indicative of how they view the power of overguard, but no, there are spammable ways of achieving 100 times that amount. It is an extremely big layer when I can play hours of SP without ever fearing being downed, with basically no controller inputs and no matter how reckless I play. None of the other layers come close to that.

Edited April 10 by Anti-Incarnon

[Anti-Incarnon]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If you knew the obvious, that the playerbase is divided over issues like this, it should be obvious that the answers you get to your topic would fall into either camp, and both sides will have valid and personal reasons for liking either side of the issue, wishing for their side to be prioritized in decisions of balance.

I don’t get your point. Of course I recognize this, I simply wanted to give voice to my camp, or at least to see if I even have one. I never claimed to expect support, in fact I expected the opposite. But I wanted to see if anyone had arguments in favor of overguard or if I could make someone think about what the introduction of massive overguard numbers mean for the game.

Edited April 10 by Anti-Incarnon

[PollexMessier]

15 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

I didn’t feel like stating the obvious. The issue I have is that the game is increasingly leaning towards pleasing the former group. The issue is that the introduction of overguard didn’t solve a problem or add anything to the game. We were already surviving just fine with the layers we had: dmg reduction, shield gate, operator mode, last gasp, etc.

Power creep to a lot of developers is a tool to in order to keep players spending money: the need to buy new stuff to achieve max power and easily beat new stuff.

I expected more from DE, but I really don’t see what else could have been their motivation. Again: Overguard doesn’t add anything apart from incentivizing laziness (why engage with the game and help my squad if I can minimize actions and instead watch netflix and still get my rewards?). It does however take away. It takes away the meaningfulness of all the other layers of survivability.

You see what happened is, the devs obliterated an entire playstyle and killed several frames by giving enemies a BS health mechanic called overguard, and everybody hated that. But instead of admitting it was a bad addition to the game they doubled down like they usually do and gave it to the players as well.

[Anti-Incarnon]

9 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

You see what happened is, the devs obliterated an entire playstyle and killed several frames by giving enemies a BS health mechanic called overguard, and everybody hated that. But instead of admitting it was a bad addition to the game they doubled down like they usually do and gave it to the players as well.

Considering how a lot of enemies don’t have overguard and can be crowd controlled even in long SP runs, I personally am in favor of this mechanic since otherwise you’d be able to control the whole map with a Vauban, Nova, any frame with gloom, etc. Unlike player overguard, it adds to the game by requiring you to engage certain enemies differently.

I think this problem is massively exaggerated. And the solution isn’t removing it anyway, it could simply be toning down the number of overguard enemies.

That being said, there are multiple ways to achieve similar results. I think the warden enemy type of the murmurs is a well designed one. 

Edited April 10 by Anti-Incarnon

[Waeleto]

Yes we're okay, if you don't like it play solo

Considering your name is literally "anti-incarnon" i'm assuming you'll be annoyed about whatever is meta atm in fact i have seen you before complaining about torid and ocucor 

I also saw you once asking to nerf styanax and frost (💀) so i'm inclined to believe you'll ask to nerf whatever is strong atm, if you're THAT annoyed at what people play then just play solo 

Edited April 10 by Waeleto

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Waeleto:

Yes we're okay, if you don't like it play solo

Considering your name is literally "anti-incarnon" i'm assuming you'll be annoyed about whatever is meta atm in fact i have seen you before complaining about torid and ocucor 

Waiting for OP to spend 200 plat to rename to "Anti-Overguard".

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

Waiting for OP to spend 200 plat to rename to "Anti-Overguard".

LOL i feel like it's something they'd do fr

[Anti-Incarnon]

3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Yes we're okay, if you don't like it play solo

Considering your name is literally "anti-incarnon" i'm assuming you'll be annoyed about whatever is meta atm in fact i have seen you before complaining about torid and ocucor 

I also saw you once asking to nerf styanax and frost (💀) so i'm inclined to believe you'll ask to nerf whatever is strong atm, if you're THAT annoyed at what people play then just play solo 

No need to get defensive. I too can have an opinion on the state of the game. The majority is loud, but there might be others that agree with me and a healthy discussion requires different concerns to be raised and heard.

[YUNoJump]

It's power creep as it is now, although player power creep has kinda already gone way out of control. On the other hand, I think I prefer Overguard-based survivability more than just "90% DR" survivability; maintaining Overguard is somewhat more involved than "press 3 every 40 seconds". And as someone above mentioned, 100,000HP is mathematically similar to 1000HP and 90% DR.

If providing Overguard to a whole team becomes a common ability type, I'd like to see squads where they rely on that instead of everyone just bringing their own DR method. Warframe has a distinct lack of actual teamplay beyond "4 dudes killing stuff in the same general area"; relying on team-based Overguard could be a first step towards enhancing teamplay and cooperation. The last time Warframe had actual teamplay was Trials and maybe Railjack 1.0, but they're long gone.

[WindShadow970]

33 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

100k is an extremely big layer

That's a numbers issue (and also a byproduct of power strength creep). I don't mean to be entirely dismissive but that is very easily adjustable.

36 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

It is an extremely big layer when I can play hours of SP without ever fearing being downed, with basically no controller inputs and no matter how reckless I play. None of the other layers comes of close to that.

None of those layers are being reapplied by a teammate, yeah I suppose. Stand still with no recast and it's coming off fast. I will concede however that other non-Quick Thinking/Overguard setups have only 1 health bar to work with which represents a relatively tighter margin for error, but they also have vastly more tools to work with. A point that I can stand by is how the Status immunity granted cuts out a lot of the danger of facing certain units like Venomous and Arson Eximus or magnetic procs

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Well i would put it inline with other overguard sharing abilities. Dante gets his high number, and maybe squad gets weaker version when dante gives them the buff. 

Even when gargoyle event was active. Squad with styanax had to worry about dealing dmg faster on 60 eyes, and squad w/o overguard was dropping like flies if got too keen on dealing dmg rather than paying attention to boss moves.

In general my issue with dantes shared high overguard is the no fear of death in casual play. Even elite archimedia becomes joke with dante in squad, styanax too. And death is not priority worry anymore.

Overguards saving grace is status immunity aspect, remove it then its jsut fancy colored healthbar with shieldgate, on top of usual shieldgate. 

Then again give us mission where enemies start like 2k on get go and dantes overguard does not seem so high.

Aslong he doesnt disrupt other to point of disabling the playstyle its fine(which gets looked into) .

 

 

[Anti-Incarnon]

1 minute ago, WindShadow970 said:

That's a numbers issue (and also a byproduct of power strength creep). I don't mean to be entirely dismissive but that is very easily adjustable.

Yeah, you’re not dismissive, the number is the issue I have with it. It’s in the title. I am wondering how DE considers 100k fine when they recently buffed archgun deployment with 2k overguard. Like, they must have thought that was a decent buff.
 

Some point out that 100k overguard is like 1000 hp with 90% DR, but if you are in a squad with a Dante, Frost or Styanax it will be reapplied to you over and over. Now if these frames applied 5k overguard on cast I would not have a problem with it, and honestly, with how energy is no longer a scarce resource at all, even that would be a nice buff.

100k? My hours of SP in a squad with Dante without ever seeing it dip below 60? Too much.

[16Bitman]

For 100k overguard the Dante needs roughly 700% power strength.

If that guy has an invigoration and got the arby/archon mission buff, let them have fun.

 

Yes, big health numbers are new.

Stupidly high EHP values are not however.

With adaptation, 90% DR abilities and a lot of armor, we already hit very high numbers years ago.

[Anti-Incarnon]

1 minute ago, 16Bitman said:

For 100k overguard the Dante needs roughly 700% power strength.

If that guy has an invigoration and got the arby/archon mission buff, let them have fun.

 

Yes, big health numbers are new.

Stupidly high EHP values are not however.

With adaptation, 90% DR abilities and a lot of armor, we already hit very high numbers years ago.

Huh, did not realize. Maybe there were two Dantes, do they stack?

Still, even half would be very strong.

And here’s the thing: adaptation, shield gate, armor buffs and other means of increasing survivability are under my control. They’re meaningful because I collected the mods, I am doing the required inputs, I am paying attention to their triggers.
 

That’s way different than simply being given a giant raincoat by a squad member.

[WindShadow970]

4 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

I am wondering how DE considers 100k fine when they recently buffed archgun deployment with 2k overguard. Like, they must have thought that was a decent buff.

Answer is most likely Kullervo's release, I wasn't playing at the time but from what I gather it was quite an issue. After sorting that out they've likely used that experience to inform decisions on Overguard values going forward.

6 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

100k? My hours of SP in a squad with Dante without ever seeing it dip below 60? Too much

Thank your Dante he's trying to help, I don't recast Triumph anywhere near as often as long as I'm good.

[Kaiga]

Most realistic builds for Dante get 40-60k depending on strength, anything around 100 is a helminth invigoration or a nidus buff, or something like that.

40,000 given to yourself gets gunned down at high enough levels, but 40,000 given to your team, pets, specters, that's a bit silly.

[Waeleto]

23 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Huh, did not realize. Maybe there were two Dantes, do they stack?

Still, even half would be very strong.

And here’s the thing: adaptation, shield gate, armor buffs and other means of increasing survivability are under my control. They’re meaningful because I collected the mods, I am doing the required inputs, I am paying attention to their triggers.
 

That’s way different than simply being given a giant raincoat by a squad member.

They don't stack, the dante with higher OG cap will apply, it 100% was a relic buff that gave ability str and range, Most optimal dante build would give around 60k OG which is in-line with frost/styanax