E/DA implements the challenge of DRG's Deep Dives with none of the joy

[Exploderizer]

Deep Archimedea's influences are important to what it attempts to be. At its core, it is a challenge mode where you lock your loadout and do 3 missions in a row with modifiers for challenge. 

Deep Rock Galactic's Deep Dives are just this, although the systems in DRG are not as deep as Warframe's. There can be modifiers on missions that serve to add challenge or change the experience, and sometimes, on a "bad" week, the missions can be more frustrating than fun, and you just end up not doing them.

For Warframe's Deep Archimedea, this is every week.

In the Deep Archimedea experience, various gates for the player are put up. Rewards are set behind limits that the player can choose to impose, and the Elite adds more challenge to this. Unfortunately, "challenge" is all that was considered during this. To get the "most" out of a DA, you have 3 negative modifiers each for all 3 missions, lock yourself to a random loadout, and turn on a further 4 self imposed modifiers, some of which turn off game mechanics. You can choose not to take some of these challenges for fewer rewards.

What DA forgets is that the gameplay can also be a reward. Notably, Duviri also limits the player by turning off gear and locking you to a random loadout. What sets it apart, and makes not just the end, but the means rewarding, is found in the decrees. Some of the decrees also have negative modifiers, but they all serve to change the experience and alter the gameplay of the player, eventually building up such that the challenge itself is fun, and the game turns limitations into possibilities.

Deep Archimedea offers no such reprieve. You put all these limits on for the rewards you want, but the way your gameplay is changed is in not having an Operator or your shields become unreliable. The reward is what happens at the end of the gameplay, and you just have to grin and bear it. You don't get any bonuses for your limited loadout, and every single modifier is weighed against you. In its contemporary, DRG's Deep Dives, not every mission has a modifier, and sometimes those modifiers can be to your benefit! The best equivalent to DRG's "Critical Weakness" modifier (do more damage on weak spots) is Warframe's "Sealed Armor" (Enemies take 90% less damage from non-weak point hits). There is little to nothing to incentivize actually enjoying the mode, just to mitigate its mechanics.

Perhaps add something beneficial to the limitations, and make it so that the player gets bonuses for Individual Parameters. Weapons or Warframe can get small buffs, adding a little for every loadout piece conformed to after the first. For every "curse" selected after the first, one of the negative modifiers on a stage could become a positive modifier, such as Sealed Armor becoming more like DRG's Critical Weakness.

As it stands, there's no reason to actually enjoy Deep Archimedea, just get through them.

[8Ball06]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything in this post.

It is worth mentioning that both myself and the OP do not touch grass, so any sort of poor experiences with Archimedea are true and real. We literally never go outside.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Exactly. The mode is not fun at all. It only exists to provide rewards. And then, when one says that it's not fun in strong part because of the rng gear (since it takes away players' agency, players' choice), the "randomizer adepts" defending it will just come in and tell you to willingly refuse the rewards to use your own gear. Yeah, right, in a mode that exists purely for the rewards, rather than fun, sure, refuse the rewards. Gotcha.

And that's on top of the modifiers simply prolonging the "suffering" or being borderline unbalanced in the first place (like those "slow moving" ghosts that run at hyper-speeds and drain the objective super fast, or that Alchemy modifier when you had to throw bottles at enemies to make em killable, etc). None of these make the missions FUN, nor even CHALLENGING. They don't. They make em just a boring and un-fun experience.

Nothing makes this mode fun. All it does is wastes your time on purpose and turns the whole 3-mission run into a painfully slow and frustrating drag. I said it before and I'll say it again - it feels like an experiment on DE's side, to see how much frustration the players are willing to endure. And people defending this mess, saying that "it's fun" - they aren't helping either.

 

Minor Update: Oh and yeah... When at one point I've said that it's not fun... I was told by one of the "randomizer adepts" - "then maybe this mode is not for you". Like... What? Then for whom it is? Masochists who like their time and nervous cells wasted? Souls-like game enthusiasts? For whom? And even if it's not for normal people, then why lock such valuable rewards behind it?

All it will lead to people "avoiding" the challenge in the first place, like they already do. 2-by-2 carry runs, pub leeching or literally just using the Necramech to go around both the randomizer and often multiple of the modifiers too. That just shows that people do not find it fun. Most don't, anyway.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_
Minor update

[PublikDomain]

There's a pretty important difference, though: DRG is fairly well balanced. It can be made as challenging as it needs to be without jumping through any extra hoops. There can be small penalties like this week's Mactera Plague, Lethal Enemies, and Shield Disruption. Sometimes there are even two penalties! But sometimes there are no penalties, because they're not a requirement for challenge. DRG can just be challenging.

Warframe, on the other hand, is very poorly balanced. It can't be made challenging when players can be invincible and deal bigger damage numbers than the engine can calculate while fighting the highest level enemies spawned at such a high rate that some platforms can't keep up. That's why you only get the full reward if you don't use your most overpowered gear every week. That's why there are no beneficial modifiers. You're already cracked out, and making you even more cracked out isn't going to make the challenge mode more challenging. It'll make it less.

For example:

2 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

The best equivalent to DRG's "Critical Weakness" modifier (do more damage on weak spots) is Warframe's "Sealed Armor" (Enemies take 90% less damage from non-weak point hits). There is little to nothing to incentivize actually enjoying the mode, just to mitigate its mechanics.

Critical Weakness works in DRG because enemies are sturdy and can take a beating, so breaking armor to deal more damage is a skill that can be rewarded. And even with this perk you're still not one-shotting the heavies and they still require your attention and they'll still #*!% you up if you're not careful.

Critical Weakness would not work for Warframe's enemies because you've already stripped the enemies of all of their defenses, piled a dozen negative status effects, hit them for int-max damage, and vaporized the entire room the nanosecond they spawned in. And you weren't even aiming!

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Warframe, on the other hand, is very poorly balanced. It can't be made challenging when players can be invincible and deal bigger damage numbers than the engine can calculate while fighting the highest level enemies spawned at such a high rate that some platforms can't keep up. That's why you only get the full reward if you don't use your most overpowered gear every week. That's why there are no beneficial modifiers. You're already cracked out, and making you even more cracked out isn't going to make the challenge mode more challenging. It'll make it less.

That's why they implemented the gear randomizer. To try and weaken the players by making them use gear they do not want to use.

All it does however is take away player agency, take away player choice. And it's never fun.

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Critical Weakness works in DRG because enemies are sturdy and can take a beating, so breaking armor to deal more damage is a skill that can be rewarded. And even with this perk you're still not one-shotting the heavies and they still require your attention and they'll still #*!% you up if you're not careful.

Critical Weakness would not work for Warframe's enemies because you've already stripped the enemies of all of their defenses, piled a dozen negative status effects, hit them for int-max damage, and vaporized the entire room the nanosecond they spawned in. And you weren't even aiming!

The difference between DRG and Warframe is that... DRG is a game about mining ore (simplifying things here). While Warframe is a "power fantasy looter shooter", where you get to be a void-power-slinging god, ripping and tearing through armies. That's what Warframe is in 90%+ of its content. Except Duviri and... DA/EDA, where it just strips you all of that, via both randomizer and dumb negatives that even further impact your already underperforming setup of gear - due to it not being one of your favorite setups, but rather something that the randomizer shoved in your hands. Like that +500% shield regen pause or the -75% ability duration modifiers, you know?

This mode literally breaks its own rules - the rules of Warframe, as a game. It goes against the nature of this game. All while failing even to provide the desired result - "challenge". It's not challenging. It's a boring slog, which can be easily avoided/ignored via multiple ways - pub leeching, carry runs, 2-by-2 runs or just using the Necramech. So what's even the point of this in the end?

That's right. The rewards. And then we have those "randomizer adepts" telling you to abandon those rewards, if you don't want to participate in the most obnoxious part of it, which is the gear randomizer. Which, as I already said, then later being further impacted by modifiers on top. You're already not using your own desired gear, then have -75% duration, for example? Then why we even play a "power fantasy game", if said power fantasy is being taken away from us? 

The mode tries its best to be "challenging", fails at it real hard... and just becomes and UN-FUN experience in the end. Not hard, not challenging... But a boring and frustrating mess that wastes your time. That's all there is to it.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[kinoko_takenoko]

Individual Parameters should not be used as a way to reduce rewards, but rather as an opportunity to play differently, like in Spiteful Decree (though I don't think the combination needs to be static), 
with combinations like "your gun does half the damage, but your melee does double the damage"or"You will not consume ammunition, if you use the specified gun",it would have been better if it was a place where you could play differently.

Or Deviation and Risk Variable could have been something like "Enemies and allies have zero armor" or "A downed enemy will cause an explosion that is lethal to both enemy and player after 3 seconds" or "All enemies have overguard, but even if they have overguard, they are affected by CC". might also be interesting.

[PublikDomain]

16 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

The difference between DRG and Warframe is that... DRG is a game about mining ore (simplifying things here).

Warframe and DRG are more similar than you'd think. DRG is just decently balanced, so they can have natural challenges without having to use

16 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

the gear randomizer. To try and weaken the players by making them use gear they do not want to use.

Like, you get it. The alternative in Warframe is for DE to actively balance the game, and just look what happened when they dared to do that with Dante! Poor, poor Dante has a 1,000,000,000 damage cap on Pageflight now, he's ruined.

16 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

The mode tries its best to be "challenging", fails at it real hard... and just becomes and UN-FUN experience in the end. Not hard, not challenging... But a boring and frustrating mess that wastes your time. That's all there is to it.

So don't play it. 🤷‍♀️

Just like in DRG where you don't have to play Deep Dives if you don't like them, you don't have to play DA/EDA if you don't like them in Warframe. You can do your weekly Netracells just like you can do your Weekly Core Hunt for the same kinds of rewards. In both games you get fewer rewards total, but you're doing fewer things. If you want more, do more.

Edited April 21 by PublikDomain

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

37 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

So don't play it. 🤷‍♀️

Then there should be an alternative way to get the same amount of rewards that DA/EDA provides. And no, Archon hunts/Netracell runs are not alternatives, they are just extra ways on top.

[AnxiousChammy]

46 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Then there should be an alternative way to get the same amount of rewards that DA/EDA provides. And no, Archon hunts/Netracell runs are not alternatives, they are just extra ways on top.

No there shouldn’t DA/EDA is the alternative. Get more rewards in the pot(guaranteed) or play the former(hunt/net). You are now just sounding like someone waiting to have the best rewards for the little most effort done but add choice and fun…that outcome doesn’t sound enticing. Before we know it we would be back here complaining about the same “Alternative” you suggested

Edited April 21 by AnxiousChammy

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

5 hours ago, AnxiousChammy said:

No there shouldn’t DA/EDA is the alternative. Get more rewards in the pot(guaranteed) or play the former(hunt/net). You are now just sounding like someone waiting to have the best rewards for the little most effort done but add choice and fun…that outcome doesn’t sound enticing. Before we know it we would be back here complaining about the same “Alternative” you suggested

No, it’s not an alternative, if part of the reward is locked behind gear randomizer, which takes away player agency over how they wanna play the game. It takes away the choice. Which is literally part of the appeal of Warframe in the first place, part of the gameplay loop - to play how you wanna play, with whatever gear you enjoy using and with whatever gear you consider best-tool-in-slot for the job(mission type) AND best-for-you to enjoy in particular.

All DA/EDA does is force players to play an un-fun game mode, with un-fun mechanics, once a week just for the rewards. And players find any way possible to go around the un-fun mechanics - 2-by-2/carry runs, using Nechramech cuz RNG gear can’t compete, refusing to invest into RNG gear just for this one mode for this one week to never touch it again or literally just “pub leeching”. It just creates an aura of negativity at best around this mode… and aura of toxicity at worst.
 

And the latter - toxicity - comes not only from pub leechers alone, but also from some “pseudo-elitist” players who claim they are “having fun” with the mode, defending this bad game design because HOW DARE anyone criticize DE and their “perfect” creation.

Sure, pal, you “enjoy” this one-off weekly mode that exist purely to provide the rewards once per weekly reset. Sure, pal, I believe you “enjoy” “replaying it” after you’ve completed it once, with each next run not giving you any rewards at all. I mean, it is YOUR time that you are wasting on this “fun” game mode… And sure, pal, everyone who disagrees with you is an absolute “pleb” and is not deserving of the rewards, yup, sure. Just tell us “plebs” again and again to “just refuse the rewards and use our own gear if we don't like randomizer”, this will make the community oh-so-friendly towards ya’ll.

That was sarcasm, in case you didn’t understand.

The mode actively wastes your time and tries its best to be as frustrating and as obnoxious as possible, on purpose. Just as an attempt to SEEM “difficult”, “challenging”. But it fails at that, real hard. There is no challenge or difficulty here. Only frustration and time-wasting. Not exclusively due to RNG gear, as some modifiers are not balanced properly, but it all just piles up together on top of the randomizer. Like that +500% shield regen delay and -75% duration ON TOP of already using gear that is not your own preferred setup.

Yeah… “Endgame” that you are supposed to be doing with random gear, not your own min-maxed setups that you spent time and effort into perfecting to be able to tackle any challenge. Including supposed “endgame”. Suuuuure, that’s just some giga-brain logic there. Sarcasm again, OBVIOUSLY.

The game is supposed to be fun. DA/EDA is the opposite of that. It’s a chore, which goes against Warframe’s core gameplay loop of you playing in any way you like. This mode takes it away AND locks rewards behind it, toying around with the FOMO on top. That is NOT good, nor ever acceptable.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[ShogunGunshow]

13 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

And the latter - toxicity - comes not only from pub leechers alone, but also from some “pseudo-elitist” players who claim they are “having fun” with the mode, defending this bad game design because HOW DARE anyone criticize DE and their “perfect” creation.

Seriously, friend. You keep repeating this in every thread, and you're starting to sound like one of Those People.

There is not some secret cabal of players determined to lie about the fun they're having

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

19 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Seriously, friend. You keep repeating this in every thread, and you're starting to sound like one of Those People.

There is not some secret cabal of players determined to lie about the fun they're having

I’d rather seem weird, than silently gobble on anything DE gives us. Especially if it is anti-fun game design. And especially if the blind fanboys keep on defending these anti-fun mechanics, because HOW DARE anyone criticize and speak up against anything DE does, even if it’s clearly bad.

Fun is subjective, that is true. Everyone has their own understanding of fun. But… One has to be real weird in the first place to truly and honestly “enjoy” this weekly one-off mode that takes away your choice and makes itself as frustrating and as obnoxious as possible. And these fanatically defending people who claim they do “enjoy” it… They are lying. To us and to themselves. Just for some misguided sense of “elitism” over “plebs” who “don’t understand the genius behind it” or something. Yeah, because there is none.

DA/EDA is just Sortie, but 3rd time, with extra layer of mechanics on top - same as Archon Hunts were Sortie, but 2nd time. People do it once, for the reward, get said reward, wait for rotation. Nobody plays it “for fun”. Nobody. If they claim they do it “for fun even after getting rewards” - they do it out of spite, to make a point, to keep the conflict up and feed their sense of “elitism” over “haters”.

So yes, I’d rather seem like a nutjob, than stay silent. I’d rather express my veteran player opinion in this Feedback section - especially since that’s why this section even exists. And especially after investing so many hours and even money in this game over the years. I think I am allowed at least that, yeah? AND, again, especially with the fact that I am not the only one who thinks like this. On the whole thing - the mode itself and its “defenders”.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[obiwandandobi2]

I love DRG! Best fun I've had in a pve game since LFD2. The difference is though, you have 4 classes all of which are pretty well balanced (if this has changed i apologise, been a while since i played it)*. It's harder to do in a game with 50+ frames, 500+ weapons and a model of releasing stuff as quickly as possible. EDA is not perfect but with it being a new mode they are looking at addressing some flaws, the mirror defense as an example of this.

What I don't understand is when people come on here and say I don't like it, change it, take away the randomiser, and then play it anyway. Can we step back and remember that this is a game? Games should be fun. Saying I'm doing it for the rewards but not enjoying it, do you know what you've made it into? A job! I go to work  and use my time to get rewards (money) because I have to. You don't need these rewards. These aren't even exclusive to EDA, you can get the same in netrocells just not as much. I hated Khal so didn't play it, lost out on a year's worth of shards and just did the Archon instead. I accepted Khal wasn't for me but some people may like it. I didn't demand it be changed to something I like, I just accepted I didn't like it and didn't do it. Because games are fun and it wasn't fun for me.

EDA for me is fun so I do it. Expressing ideas for changes to it is fine as that's what helps games evolve so applaud to OP for threads like these. It generates discussion which is what these forums are all about. But chiming in just to say change it because I hate it and telling everyone that likes it that they're wrong is not healthy for this game and not healthy for the forum.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

27 minutes ago, obiwandandobi2 said:

What I don't understand is when people come on here and say I don't like it, change it, take away the randomiser, and then play it anyway. Can we step back and remember that this is a game? Games should be fun. Saying I'm doing it for the rewards but not enjoying it, do you know what you've made it into? A job! I go to work  and use my time to get rewards (money) because I have to. You don't need these rewards. These aren't even exclusive to EDA, you can get the same in netrocells just not as much. I hated Khal so didn't play it, lost out on a year's worth of shards and just did the Archon instead. I accepted Khal wasn't for me but some people may like it. I didn't demand it be changed to something I like, I just accepted I didn't like it and didn't do it. Because games are fun and it wasn't fun for me.

Good for you on missing out on all those shards from Kahl. All it did was you not playing it, nor speaking out against either. In the end, the result is that you don't have the shards, thats it. And the shard was now moved to Bird 3 instead, after a long while.

Also… I am honesty and sincerely happy that you’re a person who’s not susceptible to FOMO. No jokes or sarcasm here. I am very happy for you that you can so easily resist it and refused to play those Kahl missions, without fear that you’re missing out on those shards. That is a healthy way to do things.

But… Not everyone is the same as you. That is a trait that a lot of people sadly lack these days. That’s why a lot of businesses are using and abusing against their customers. But it’s one thing when it’s some skin or syandana - something that does not affect the gameplay in any way… And it’s entirely different thing when it’s items that directly influence gameplay. And shards being exactly the type of item that does that.

So yes, people who are susceptible to FOMO will play it, against their will. And no, they will not refuse rewards in order to use their own gear. Instead, they will find ways to go around it - 2-by-2/carry runs, Necramech and pub leeching with RNG gear equipped.

Why? Because this isn’t a mode created for FUN, it’s a one-off weekly thing for rewards - Sortie 3.0 at best. With un-fun and purposefully frustrating mechanics added on top, draining any possible fun from it. So of course people will treat it as “work”. People want the shards, even if they don’t find it fun. Just like with any other reward and any other grind in Warframe (talking about you, Citrine farm on Mars).

And no… Refusing/abandoning the rewards is not an option for most people. Maybe for you it is and I am glad you see it that way. Most people though? They aren’t like you.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Then there should be an alternative way to get the same amount of rewards that DA/EDA provides.

In what game does it work like that? lol

Did you get the same amount of Shards for skipping Kahl missions? No.

Do you now get the same amount of Shards for not buying them from Bird-3? No.

Do you get the same number of Arcanes for only doing the first stage of a tricap? No.

Do you get the same kinds of Relics for only going to Rotation A? No.

Do you get the same amount of Credits for only doing low risk Index? No.

Do you get the same amount of Incarnon Adapters for only doing 5 tiers of the Circuit? No.

Do you get the same amount of rare Prime parts for only doing Intact Relics? No.

Do you get a Prodman poster for only staying for 30 minutes? No.

It's like there's a pattern.... 🤔

Edited April 21 by PublikDomain

[PR1D3]

18 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Good for you on missing out on all those shards from Kahl. All it did was you not playing it, nor speaking out against either. In the end, the result is that you don't have the shards, thats it. And the shard was now moved to Bird 3 instead, after a long while.

Also… I am honesty and sincerely happy that you’re a person who’s not susceptible to FOMO. No jokes or sarcasm here. I am very happy for you that you can so easily resist it and refused to play those Kahl missions, without fear that you’re missing out on those shards. That is a healthy way to do things.

But… Not everyone is the same as you. That is a trait that a lot of people sadly lack these days. That’s why a lot of businesses are using and abusing against their customers. But it’s one thing when it’s some skin or syandana - something that does not affect the gameplay in any way… And it’s entirely different thing when it’s items that directly influence gameplay. And shards being exactly the type of item that does that.

So yes, people who are susceptible to FOMO will play it, against their will. And no, they will not refuse rewards in order to use their own gear. Instead, they will find ways to go around it - 2-by-2/carry runs, Necramech and pub leeching with RNG gear equipped.

Why? Because this isn’t a mode created for FUN, it’s a one-off weekly thing for rewards - Sortie 3.0 at best. With un-fun and purposefully frustrating mechanics added on top, draining any possible fun from it. So of course people will treat it as “work”. People want the shards, even if they don’t find it fun. Just like with any other reward and any other grind in Warframe.

And no… Refusing/abandoning the rewards is not an option for most people. Maybe for you it is and I am glad you see it that way. Most people though? They aren’t like you.

LMAO what a fun roundabout way to admit that this has #*!%ing nothing to do with the "fun" you've been psychotically ranting about for days now. It's your rewards FOMO and arrogance tweaking the #*!% out. I'm expecting some response of "not me", but you clearly have a problem. This could be a real moment of reflection, and the taking of the proverbial Chill Pills. But this is the WF forums. And I honestly don't expect that happening. You'll continue to rage at me, Public, or whomever and it will go nowhere. And if that's the case anything you say going forward should just be responded with this meme. You are your own worst enemy and the architect of your own misery. For literally nothing. Except for the type of laughter that puts me to tears.

 

[Exploderizer]

The thread has been hijacked by people being mad at each other, at DE, and at invisible people, and has not contributed anything useful to the discussion. 

 

This post isn't about whether or not you're meant to skip or do the E/DA. It's about introducing more rewarding gameplay into the mode to bring it more in line with its contemporaries, namely DRG's Deep Dives or Warframe's own Duviri Circuit. 

Anything past that directed at DE is a distraction and does not provide anything of substance. I really don't care about the internal politics of the decision-making of anyone involved, either player or dev, I just want the game to be more fun to play in correlation with the challenge provided. E/DA fails at this, and that's what I want to talk about.

Edited April 21 by Exploderizer

[SneakyErvin]

39 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

In what game does it work like that? lol

Did you get the same amount of Shards for skipping Kahl missions? No.

Do you now get the same amount of Shards for not buying them from Bird-3? No.

Do you get the same number of Arcanes for only doing the first stage of a tricap? No.

Do you get the same kinds of Relics for only going to Rotation A? No.

Do you get the same amount of Credits for only doing low risk Index? No.

Do you get the same amount of Incarnon Adapters for only doing 5 tiers of the Circuit? No.

Do you get the same amount of rare Prime parts for only doing Intact Relics? No.

Do you get a Prodman poster for only staying for 30 minutes? No.

It's like there's a pattern.... 🤔

The difference is that none of those punish players differently through RNG behind a time gate. If you get a really bad EDA pull you will be locked out of the top rewards without you being able to do anything about it. And it isnt some skill tied to it either, it is simply the game telling you no, since you happen to miss items you wouldnt actively use in the mission anyways if you had them.

Kahl and all the others is/was the same for all. Incarnon Adapters for instance. If you get a bad pull you are only required to jump in and do a single rotation to get a new chance, all it costs you is some time. In EDA if things are really against you, you will miss out on the rewards for the week, soley due to arbitrary RNG that really adds nothing.

If EDA was done right it would have avoided RNG gear and instead had more modifiers you need to have active that proxy the bad item pulls. Enemies are immune to slash and puncture damage/staus, oh looks like Bo got more appealing. Enemies are immune to viral damage/status, new modding required. Explosive weapons deal 99% less damage. Held, Burst and Full-Auto weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee range cannot be increased. Base crit chance is set to 0%. Base status chance is set to 0%. Melee attacks cost energy. Shooting costs energy. A nullification pulse surges you each 10 seconds. You are affected by magnetic (not the #*!%ing visual, and it could be blocked by utilizing the arcane). And so on. Things to incentivice exploring other options without a risk that it locks anyone out from rewards.

The things you picked didnt work with the modifiers imposed on you? Well try again since you have more items that might work. Right now it's "You dont have these items? Well then you wont get the highest reward". Or it means you can get the highest reward but end up being 100% useless to the rest of the group in the process by getting effectively carried.

Edited April 21 by SneakyErvin

[Drachnyn]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Exploderizer:

Perhaps add something beneficial to the limitations, and make it so that the player gets bonuses for Individual Parameters. Weapons or Warframe can get small buffs, adding a little for every loadout piece conformed to after the first. For every "curse" selected after the first, one of the negative modifiers on a stage could become a positive modifier, such as Sealed Armor becoming more like DRG's Critical Weakness.

Obviously we are far more powerful in warframe than we are in DRG so for a mode that is supposed to be challenging it doesnt really make sense to then also buff us to hell but there is something I have been thinking about ever since I learned about the game mode. I think it would be neat if the 3 warframes you have as gear parameter were also the same 3 frames you have invigorations on.

[Exploderizer]

8 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Obviously we are far more powerful in warframe than we are in DRG so for a mode that is supposed to be challenging it doesnt really make sense to then also buff us to hell but there is something I have been thinking about ever since I learned about the game mode. I think it would be neat if the 3 warframes you have as gear parameter were also the same 3 frames you have invigorations on.

I also don't think it makes any sense to buff us to hell, I don't mean to give us +300% p str or +500 health like archon hunts or arbitrations, but I didn't want to be too granular in my post and so left it vague with "small buffs". Something like +2.5% chance to dodge if you have a chosen frame and a weapon on, upgrading to 5 and 10% if you add more chosen items to your loadout, or making energy/health pickups slightly more effective. The loadout limitations are fine, Duviri is proof that they can work, but the thing Duviri does with its decrees is it makes you look for different ways to leverage your limitations to work for you. Sometimes you get a bad streak of luck and get useless decrees, but that's not a thing that happens every time; E/DA posits the question, "what if every single reset was a bad streak?" I think it's important to reward the player not just when they're finished playing, but also as they play.

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Obviously we are far more powerful in warframe than we are in DRG so for a mode that is supposed to be challenging it doesnt really make sense to then also buff us to hell but there is something I have been thinking about ever since I learned about the game mode. I think it would be neat if the 3 warframes you have as gear parameter were also the same 3 frames you have invigorations on.

Pretty interesting idea, especially since one can be overridden every few weeks.  Although I think the randomness of these buffs  will still drive people mad.

Also, if probability to get an invigoration is (still?) weighted differently between frames, that's an issue.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

If EDA was done right it would have avoided RNG gear and instead had more modifiers you need to have active that proxy the bad item pulls.

Which people would have immediately trivialized and turned into paste. Modifiers can be managed and mitigated and made a non-issue. They're not as dangerous as people seem to think they are. Nevermind what would happen if these modifiers were actually buffs!

To keep this on topic for OP, this is what Warframe has that DRG does not: rampant powercreep and imbalance. The gear RNG, forced gear, adaptation, attenuation, immunity, nullification, overguarding, etc. are all DE's attempts at bringing the player down to a baseline where a challenge can be created. DRG doesn't need to do that because the player is already at that baseline. DRG works because it is already balanced. They can afford to make the gameplay "more rewarding" because the gameplay is already rewarding. They can put in little boons like Critical Weakness and not screw up the balance of the game or erode the challenges they want to present. Warframe cannot. That's really all there is to it. Warframe could do the exact same things as DRG if players were consistently powerful and predictable. Until that happens we'll never get a challenge that isn't in some way artificial.

Edit: To illustrate this visually:

DRG is already below the challenge threshold. Ghost Ship can add little buffs and it's still a challenge.

Warframe is already far above the challenge threshold. DE has to debuff the player a significant amount for the challenge to start.

Adding buffs to DA/EDA (or removing RNG) is only going to push the player further to the right, away from the challenge.

Edited April 21 by PublikDomain

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Which people would have immediately trivialized and turned into paste.

To keep this on topic for OP, this is what Warframe has that DRG does not: rampant powercreep and imbalance. The gear RNG, forced gear, adaptation, attenuation, immunity, nullification, overguarding, etc. are all DE's attempts at bringing the player down to a baseline where a challenge can be created. DRG doesn't need to do that because the player is already at that baseline. DRG works because it is already balanced. They can afford to make the gameplay "more rewarding" because the gameplay is already rewarding. They can put in little boons like Critical Weakness and not screw up the balance of the game or erode the challenges they want to present. Warframe cannot. That's really all there is to it. Warframe could do the exact same things as DRG if players were consistently powerful and predictable. Until that happens we'll never get a challenge that isn't in some way artificial.

How? It isnt like people would be able to pick their weekly modification pulls freely out of a massive pool, it would be 8 random modifications instead of 4 RNG items + 4 modifications. So it wouldnt get more trivialized than now, since you'd never know which combos would be present during the week until that week comes around. The simple part of having 1 free choice now is enough to trivialize the current system and likely far easier than it would be to trivialize it with 4 more random modifications, that could impact those current choices that trivialize every week. The modifications do far more than the RNG choices. The modifications along with the mission type at hand are the only things I've considered so far when it comes to picking that free trivializing choice.

Our power could easily be reigned in by punishing modification and do so far more consistently than pulling weapons from a pool of hundreds upon hundreds of different options. Those punishing mods would come around more often and in greater combination due to the pools being significantly smaller than that of weapons. They could also force certain modification types to always roll each week.

Plus we dont know the ins and out of the current RNG system, how forgiving it is, if it gives you atleast one weapon family you own per category or not. I'm yet to end up wth a week where I dont own atleast 1 item in each. Which would also make the system pointless since players can avoid heavy performance loss by removing weapons families/frames. With modifications they wouldnt be able to remove and avoid, since they'd still need atleast 7/8 active for "full" rewards from the mode and the mods are tied to the mode and not what you own or doesnt. If they can remove weapons/frames and be left with "OK" options in their mind, then the system serves no purpose. And if it doesnt guarantee atleast an item per category that you own, well then arbitrary RNG that does nothing for balance simply locks players out from obtaining rewards. It doesnt reduce their power during the week since they dont even have the option to use that downscaled power, since they dont own the item in the first place.

edit: Just want to add. I'm currently in the process of upgrading all my owned melee weapons. So if atleast one of those gets pulled there wont really be anything to the mode that could be considered difficult. Since I have enough frames, which I use as my weekly free choice that enables melee well enough to make any combination trivialize the mode. I could potentially turn up SoL if it can pull only things I dont own, but at that point it depends on how many categories I miss out on in a pull. If 1, ok, the system pushes me to use what is handed to me while I can ignore that pull I dont own, but if is is 2, well then there is no reason to worry, since I wont hit EDA anyways for max rewards, so might aswell use more of what I want than that which is pulled for me.

Edited April 21 by SneakyErvin

[Gaxxian]

hace 54 minutos, SneakyErvin dijo:

If EDA was done right it would have avoided RNG gear and instead had more modifiers you need to have active that proxy the bad item pulls. Enemies are immune to slash and puncture damage/staus, oh looks like Bo got more appealing. Enemies are immune to viral damage/status, new modding required. Explosive weapons deal 99% less damage. Held, Burst and Full-Auto weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee range cannot be increased. Base crit chance is set to 0%. Base status chance is set to 0%. Melee attacks cost energy. Shooting costs energy. A nullification pulse surges you each 10 seconds. You are affected by magnetic (not the #*!%ing visual, and it could be blocked by utilizing the arcane). And so on. Things to incentivice exploring other options without a risk that it locks anyone out from rewards.

I would LOVE those modifiers without any RNGear involved.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

I would LOVE those modifiers without any RNGear involved.

And they are so simple to come up with aswell, so no idea how they went "woosh!" past DE. I could fart out a whole list of them considering these few took maybe 5 seconds all in all to come up with.