E/DA implements the challenge of DRG's Deep Dives with none of the joy

[PublikDomain]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

How?

By being able to always pick the strongest, most invincible frames paired with the most strongest, most deadly weapons?

How would that not make the mode easier to do? Of course it will make it easier. You get to freely take all of your busted, overpowered gear every week. You know what people do with that freedom already? They play the game at levelcap. Where do you go from there? Levelcap++?

RNG isn't great, but it does reduce the amount that the above happens.

[Stormandreas]

Absolutely agree!

The randomized loadouts, makes it very unfun imo. Remove those, and keep the rest, sure, I'll take it.

Keeping them (as optional) but adding something else to mix up how the game plays, sure, I'll also take that

Having random loadouts with nothing but negatives, no. This is the worst way to implement a new gamemode. It causes nothing but frustration and discomfort when you tell a player "You can't use what you want, and everything is much harder, oh also you can't hurt enemies unless you stand next to them though you'll die if you do stand still. We also threw in penalties for you going down too just to make it EXTRA SPICY!"

These are all things you should not be saying to your players in one go.

 

For anyone saying "JuSt KeEp AlL gEaR". This is not a viable solution. Most players will not do this, and don't want to do this, nor do they want to fell forced to do this.
Then saying "JuSt DoN't PlAy It". Again, not a solution. Players want to play the new content (naturally) and just telling them "no don't" is the worst logic to have in any game. Especially when they are giving critical feedback.

[Stormandreas]

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

By being able to always pick the strongest, most invincible frames paired with the most strongest, most deadly weapons?

How would that not make the mode easier to do? Of course it will make it easier. You get to freely take all of your busted, overpowered gear every week. You know what people do with that freedom already? They play the game at levelcap. Where do you go from there? Levelcap++?

RNG isn't great, but it does reduce the amount that the above happens.

This points to a problem of the game, not the freedom of choice.

WF has implemented so many broken systems because DE have an incessent need to make every new thing more powerful than the last. Look at Overguard. It trivializes literally everything.
This is a result of Powercreep and that need I mentioned. Due to this, WF turned into a Power Fantasy type game, and causes content like DA to be cheesable by just... using the games systems.

DE need to seriously think about the health and longevity of WF now, especially when they add new things into the game. Overguard is one of the most oppressive systems they've ever implemented for example, and it's only getting more accessible as time goes on.

Edited April 21 by Stormandreas

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Stormandreas said:

This points to a problem of the game, not the freedom of choice.

Sort of. When the "freedom of choice" in this case is really the "freedom to choose to trivialize the game", players being able to make that choice is itself the problem. You can't have a challenging mode when players are free to choose to not make it a challenge. One of DE's only practical solutions is to incentivize not making that choice.

[Lord_Drod]

Those are good suggestions erv for sure, but they won't necessarily give you incentive to diversify your arsenal as much as an RNG system will.

I also don't see small buffs to random things having much of an impact.

I think people are failing to take advantage of operator, gearwheel, companion, and the mech.  All those are way more useful than any small buff will give.

You won't always have those, but between those, RNG, and one modifier you should get a competent setup.

Use armor strip from helminth or unairu.  Specters and companion DPS.

There are some bad weapons out there, but there's also a lot of good weapons being ignored and a randomizer is really the only way to draw attention to those things.

Edited April 21 by Lord_Drod

[ShogunGunshow]

33 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

DE need to seriously think about the health and longevity of WF now, especially when they add new things into the game.

Unfortunately the time to start doing this was, like, six-plus years ago. I do not see how DE ever walks Warframe back from the abyss with their current model and incentives. It would take years of concerted effort to wrangle our power, MASSIVE nerfs to all mods across the board, and I just do not see that ever flying.

Like, take the rage over the AoE nerfs, multiply that by five, and make it constant for years. I'm pretty sure it would kill the company stone dead. Heck, look at the reaction to just Dante getting nerfed.

Which is why I don't think they're really trying these days. Just a few fixes or nerfs here and there to stop obnoxious gameplay, but otherwise just letting players go absolutely nuts outside of artificially enforced difficulty via various modifiers and RNG. Because they'd need a sequel to really sort all this out and start from zero, and that's what Soulframe is going to be. 

[PR1D3]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

If EDA was done right it would have avoided RNG gear and instead had more modifiers you need to have active that proxy the bad item pulls. Enemies are immune to slash and puncture damage/staus, oh looks like Bo got more appealing. Enemies are immune to viral damage/status, new modding required. Explosive weapons deal 99% less damage. Held, Burst and Full-Auto weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee range cannot be increased. Base crit chance is set to 0%. Base status chance is set to 0%. Melee attacks cost energy. Shooting costs energy. A nullification pulse surges you each 10 seconds. You are affected by magnetic (not the #*!%ing visual, and it could be blocked by utilizing the arcane). And so on. Things to incentivice exploring other options without a risk that it locks anyone out from rewards.

The things you picked didnt work with the modifiers imposed on you? Well try again since you have more items that might work. Right now it's "You dont have these items? Well then you wont get the highest reward". Or it means you can get the highest reward but end up being 100% useless to the rest of the group in the process by getting effectively carried.

LMAO you honestly think this is better? You're still going to get the same complaints now. If you honestly think WF players are going to modify their builds to accommodate some modifier you're fooling yourself. You would still get floored by all the comments of "you're punishing me for using x,y,z", "you're invalidating my build and not respecting my investment", "you're forcing me to do something I normally wouldn't", and "I'm getting punished and locked out of rewards cause I refuse to play the game in the specific way DE wants". I would bet money you will still get those complaints and a few comments saying you're a S#&$ game dev who doesn't understand what true "fun" is.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Did you get the same amount of Shards for skipping Kahl missions? No.

Do you now get the same amount of Shards for not buying them from Bird-3? No.

I'm actually one of those people who was glad that DE reconsidered and moved the shard from Kahl's missions to the Bird. Now I can do literally any and all missions in the Entrati labs, get 30k standing and get the shard. Be it doing Bounties-for-Standing directly or literally any other mission type in that tileset and just collect Voca. Yes, including Netracells or even DA/EDA and still get enough standing from Voca alone, all while having all these alternatives on where I get enough Standing to buy the shard.

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get the same number of Arcanes for only doing the first stage of a tricap? No.

Or I could just go farm SP for Acolytes/do Void Cascade for Thraxxes/Lua Conjunction Survival for Lua Thrax Plasm(Yonta's currency), get Arcanes through there, dissolve them into Vosfor and roll the RNG on the Plains of Eidolon pack of Arcanes. All without even touching Eidolons in the first place. Yup, an alternative.

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get the same kinds of Relics for only going to Rotation A? No.

Rotations are not even a problem, nor were ever even discussed anywhere. I have not ever said a single word that Rotation A should give out Rotation C rewards or something.  And besides... There is still more than enough variety and alternatives here too: you can do Survival or Defense or Excavation or Disruption or other "endless" types... Whatever floats your boat, so to speak. And still get same relics from the same equal rotation on every mission type. Or you could literally outright buy relic packs, from multiple sources - be it reputation, Steel Essence or even plat. Plenty of alternatives!

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get the same amount of Credits for only doing low risk Index? No.

Yes, I do, if I just run the low-risk index multiple times instead of going for high risk once. The amount of Credits in the end piles up to the same amount. It's all just about time and effort. Not that I would ever run low-risk Index these days, but it's still an option and a solid alternative, if one would be willing to do the same thing multiple times with lesser reward to eventually get the same exact amount as running one, but of a higher difficulty.

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get the same amount of Incarnon Adapters for only doing 5 tiers of the Circuit? No.

Incarnon adapters are on a rotation. Per week, you can pick 2 adapters - one will be on Tier 5, the other on Tier 10 reward. So, mathematically, if you only run every single week up to Tier 5 instead of Tier 10... It would simply take you double the time to get all the incarnon adapters available in the rotation, compared to the case of getting both (T5 and T10 rewards). Because yes, it's a rotation that comes back after a couple of weeks. Adapters are "finite" reward that you don't really need any duplicates of(unless you really want to). And then you "complete" the mode, get all the rewards out of it (all the 35 adapters or less, if you don't want literally every single one of them) and never even touch the mode again - because not having them wouldn't affect your gameplay in any way. Either way... Is it slower to only pick Tier 5 and not bother with Tier 10, cuz it takes longer to get from 5 to 10 than it is from 1 to 5? Sure, it is slower in the grand scheme of things. Twice the time in the end overall to get all of them. But is it an alternative? Oh, it very much is. Because in the end, you still can get all of them.

Archon shards from Archon Hunts, Bird 3, Netracells or DA/EDA are surely "ever present" and on a weekly rotation, but... TECHNICALLY... If you miss out a week and don't buy it / complete the missions in that one week - you will simply have less shards than someone who didn't miss it. If you miss two weeks - you're already having even less shards. And with every next missed week that you skipped, you will always have less. And they won't ever come back. "Those shards that you skipped" aren't coming back, ever. You only can get new ones, from the new weeks.

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get the same amount of rare Prime parts for only doing Intact Relics? No.

Here's the thing though. Relics are always RNG. Regardless if it's Intact or Radiant... It's always RNG. Sure, the chances and percentages are skewed depending on the relic type, BUT... RNG will always be RNG. You can have insane luck and get all them "gold" rewards from base Intact relics a whole lot of time. Or RNGsus may be angry at you for some reason and no matter how many Radiant relics you use, you'll still always get them "bronze" rewards in most cases. Even if chances/percentages move around, it's still RNG.

So I don't see how this can be compared to this case here. Sure, there is still RNG involved inside the drops themselves - you can get either regular shard or Tau or an arcane or an arcane adapter. But there is not RNG behind whether you "get it or not". You either DO - by participating in the gear randomizer - or you DON'T, by not participating in it. And that is very much a problem, because gear randomizer is anti-fun, anti-player, poorly designed game mechanic that goes against what Warframe is as a game.

Oh and yeah. There's always an alterantive - just sell all the "wrong" items you've just farmed for plat and outright buy the item that you've tried getting, but RNG wasn't on your side that day. Yup.

-1.

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Do you get a Prodman poster for only staying for 30 minutes? No.

Imagine being bothered by a cosmetic poster or bringing it into a discussion about NON-cosmetic rewards, which directly affect the gameplay - unlike any and all cosmetics. And yes, shards, arcanes and even arcane adapters all affect the gameplay. Cosmetics don't. So why even bring this one up, I'm not sure.

-1.

 

And thus... None of the points in your post are even remotely viable to being a counter-argument. Sorry.

----------------------------------------------------

2 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

LMAO what a fun roundabout way to admit that this has #*!%ing nothing to do with the "fun" you've been psychotically ranting about for days now. It's your rewards FOMO and arrogance tweaking the #*!% out. I'm expecting some response of "not me", but you clearly have a problem. This could be a real moment of reflection, and the taking of the proverbial Chill Pills. But this is the WF forums. And I honestly don't expect that happening. You'll continue to rage at me, Public, or whomever and it will go nowhere. And if that's the case anything you say going forward should just be responded with this meme. You are your own worst enemy and the architect of your own misery. For literally nothing. Except for the type of laughter that puts me to tears.

And that's, folks, exactly what I was talking about. The "pseudo-elitism". Assuming a high ground above someone, thinking you're "better" because you are ready to blindly praise anything that DE does, while attacking anyone who DARES to put out criticism of their work. Sure. Laugh all you want. I'm glad I could make your day and feel better for yourself. Bathe in your status of a Giga-chad, you've "won" an argument on the internet, yay! (you didn't, btw, but you can imagine you did)

----------------------------------------------------

2 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

I just want the game to be more fun to play in correlation with the challenge provided. E/DA fails at this, and that's what I want to talk about.

Same thing as I want. And most others want too. Problem is - it requires effort and thought put into it. DE just gave us "Sortie 3.0", with frustrating Gear Randomizer slapped on top. Yet here we have people defending it like if it's some "NEW AND BRAVE DIRECTION" for the game. It's not new, nor brave. It's just lazy and poorly implemented.

And since this is a Feedback section of the forum... I'm pretty sure anyone is allowed to speak their mind. Regardless if it's positive feedback or actual criticism of the bad things about it. Too bad that fanatical fanboys think that nobody's allowed to do the latter. And they'll instantly come to "shut you down". If you look closely, all other threads that criticized DA/EDA have been highjacked in the same fashion, with people telling how they "enjoy" it and whatnot.

----------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Which people would have immediately trivialized and turned into paste. Modifiers can be managed and mitigated and made a non-issue. They're not as dangerous as people seem to think they are. Nevermind what would happen if these modifiers were actually buffs!

45 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Sort of. When the "freedom of choice" in this case is really the "freedom to choose to trivialize the game", players being able to make that choice is itself the problem. You can't have a challenging mode when players are free to choose to not make it a challenge. One of DE's only practical solutions is to incentivize not making that choice.

And in a "power fantasy game" this is bad... how? Or why? 

It's not bad. It's by design. It's how Warframe is supposed to be. A power-fantasy, where you choose how to mass-murder armies and commit all sorts of warcrimes. Be it slashing to bits with melee weapons, burning to dust with abilities, putting a few too many extra holes in their bodies and more. "Trivializing" through modding, building and finding the best combinations is literally the whole point of Warframe. Building your own Tenno warrior - Warframe, Primary, Seconary, Melee, Operator, Mods and Arcanes in all of those, often combining the functionality of benefits of all of those together into an unstoppable murder-machine that you're supposed to be. That's what Warframe is, that's what "power fantasy game" means.

DA/EDA with its Randomizer Gear takes away any sort of player agency and your choice of gear. It takes away the whole point of the game at the core. All while locking away rewards behind this mechanic that takes away the main point of Warframe. 

----------------------------------------------------

9 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

LMAO you honestly think this is better? You're still going to get the same complaints now. If you honestly think WF players are going to modify their builds to accommodate some modifier you're fooling yourself. You would still get floored by all the comments of "you're punishing me for using x,y,z", "you're invalidating my build and not respecting my investment", "you're forcing me to do something I normally wouldn't", and "I'm getting punished and locked out of rewards cause I refuse to play the game in the specific way DE wants". I would bet money you will still get those complaints and a few comments saying you're a S#&$ game dev who doesn't understand what true "fun" is.

In the same way people are already not even bothering to "modify" any of their gear to match the CURRENT state of DA/EDA. They just pick whatever randomizer tells them to and either go pub-leeching/using Necramech or 2-by-2/carry runs. DA/EDA is not a "mode" that you play constantly. It's Sortie 3.0. You do it once a week, as a "weekly", as a "one-time a week and forget", get rewards, don't bother touching until the rewards are reset. No sane person who values their time will bother even specifically modding/changing their build to match something they will play ONCE in THIS ONE WEEK. This applies to their own desired gear and the randomizer-chosen sticks and stones. 

I'm not saying DE is "bad". But I've been around Warframe since the beginning, with pauses. DE made a lot of great choices over the years... but also quite a few bad choices as well. DA/EDA is one of such bad choices. Does it make them "S#&$ty game dev"? No. Everyone makes mistakes. Even game devs. It's just a matter if we - as a players - speak out against un-fun, frustrating and honestly very bad game design, for it to be fixed by DE, based on our feedback.

And once again. I don't see folks create as many threads with positive feedback. Most who actually claim to like this whole thing actually come to negative feedback threads and start conflicts... Like this one. And we - the ones who started these threads with criticism - are allowed to defend ourselves and our points of view, eh? :)

Cheers.

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Exploderizer]

58 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Absolutely agree!

The randomized loadouts, makes it very unfun imo. Remove those, and keep the rest, sure, I'll take it.

Keeping them (as optional) but adding something else to mix up how the game plays, sure, I'll also take that

Having random loadouts with nothing but negatives, no. This is the worst way to implement a new gamemode. It causes nothing but frustration and discomfort when you tell a player "You can't use what you want, and everything is much harder, oh also you can't hurt enemies unless you stand next to them though you'll die if you do stand still. We also threw in penalties for you going down too just to make it EXTRA SPICY!"

These are all things you should not be saying to your players in one go.

 

For anyone saying "JuSt KeEp AlL gEaR". This is not a viable solution. Most players will not do this, and don't want to do this, nor do they want to fell forced to do this.
Then saying "JuSt DoN't PlAy It". Again, not a solution. Players want to play the new content (naturally) and just telling them "no don't" is the worst logic to have in any game. Especially when they are giving critical feedback.

 

Truthfully I have no qualms with the randomized loadout, I agree with others that allowing players to bring whatever they want would remove too much of the friction and challenge present in E/DA, I just think there's room for DE to remove some of that friction themselves to incentivize people to play differently other than just "hey, don't you want a shiny tau shard?" I personally don't think it would be too interesting if people just brought their best gear and trivialize the mode, but I also think the limitation should read like "look at the shiny toy, you can do more with these things in your loadout" rather than it feeling like they're smacking your hand away. It's not literally like that, but it's the closest example that comes to mind.

Netracells allow you to bring anything and are trivialized by this, but it also seems like a bit of fun gameplay was let in by accident, with the Wampyri Glyph (take constant damage, kills restore health) being a good example of a mechanic that both harms and helps the player. That modifier reads more like one of the anomalies in DRG rather than the stacking hazards of Warframe's E/DA.

3 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

I'm actually one of those people who was glad that DE reconsidered and moved the shard from Kahl's missions to the Bird. Now I can do literally any and all missions in the Entrati labs, get 30k standing and get the shard. Be it doing Bounties-for-Standing directly or literally any other mission type in that tileset and just collect Voca. Yes, including Netracells or even DA/EDA and still get enough standing from Voca alone, all while having all these alternatives on where I get enough Standing to buy the shard.

-1.......

You are genuinely being a nuisance in this thread (and from the looks of it, other threads as well) and mostly picking fights instead of contributing meaningfully. Please start your own thread and keep your epic Reddit downvote clapbacks somewhere else.

 

Edited April 21 by Exploderizer

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

4 minutes ago, Exploderizer said:

You are genuinely being a nuisance in this thread and mostly picking fights instead of contributing meaningfully. Please start your own thread and keep your epic Reddit downvote clapbacks somewhere else.

 

Already did. But it was just as equally "hijacked" as this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 21 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb PublikDomain:

Which people would have immediately trivialized and turned into paste. Modifiers can be managed and mitigated and made a non-issue. They're not as dangerous as people seem to think they are. Nevermind what would happen if these modifiers were actually buffs!

To keep this on topic for OP, this is what Warframe has that DRG does not: rampant powercreep and imbalance. The gear RNG, forced gear, adaptation, attenuation, immunity, nullification, overguarding, etc. are all DE's attempts at bringing the player down to a baseline where a challenge can be created. DRG doesn't need to do that because the player is already at that baseline. DRG works because it is already balanced. They can afford to make the gameplay "more rewarding" because the gameplay is already rewarding. They can put in little boons like Critical Weakness and not screw up the balance of the game or erode the challenges they want to present. Warframe cannot. That's really all there is to it. Warframe could do the exact same things as DRG if players were consistently powerful and predictable. Until that happens we'll never get a challenge that isn't in some way artificial.

Edit: To illustrate this visually:

DRG is already below the challenge threshold. Ghost Ship can add little buffs and it's still a challenge.

Warframe is already far above the challenge threshold. DE has to debuff the player a significant amount for the challenge to start.

Adding buffs to DA/EDA (or removing RNG) is only going to push the player further to the right, away from the challenge.

Honestly even in DRG the critical weakness modifier breaks the game in our favor. Enemies are pretty carefully balanced with their HP and that is very important for the regular game balance there. Slashers wouldnt be nearly as lethal if they had regular grunt or swarmer HP. Critical weakness does just that. Mactera almost never get their shots off. It wrecks some of the really dangerous enemies into the ground.

[staranow]

14 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

As it stands, there's no reason to actually enjoy Deep Archimedea, just get through them.

This sums up my feelings for this gamemode perfectly. I agree with everything in your post (it was excellent btw).

I don't want to call DA or EDA difficult. What they do is more annoying if anything. RNG loadouts determine how annoying of a time are you going to have to get through the missions to get the rewards. I can understand logically that there ARE players who enjoy the 'challenge' that the RNG loadouts/mission modifiers/and the personal 'curses' you need to take to get the rewards. But I'm not one of those players personally. 

I LIKE SP circuit. I like the decree system letting you play around and make absolutely stupid builds, the speed that you can get to level cap to test yourself, and the fact that loaner builds help you try stuff even when you don't own them. Its great fun, and I sometimes play it even though I'm 'done' with it. Sure it still has rewards but I have all the arcanes maxed, all the incarnons I want, more duviri resources then I need, and I'm just sitting on over 200 pathos clamps waiting for DE to add more incarnons I want to actually play around with. I play it not for the rewards but for the fun of the gamemode.

DA/EDA is the exact opposite for me. I solo'd week 1 DA to get to EDA. I had one good frame choice (that I don't like but is good), terrible primary weapon choices, terrible secondary choices and 1 melee option that I actually like/is good/I would take to SP. So I ran through the mission killing everything I needed to with my melee for all 3 missions. Went to EDA, went solo and got 1shot in the last mission when I was 6/8 conduits done. I honestly have no idea what even killed me. So I could try running it again solo or run it public and see just how much easier it would be. Tried it public with a group of randoms, and it was a breeze. Just having other players around for enemies to attack made it feel like I was playing a different game. We didn't sync up our loadouts or even communicate at ALL with each other until the end of the 3rd mission when everyone typed out GG.

So there was my frame, a Citrine, a Zephyr and I don't even remember what the 4th player had because they had so little impact. But it didn't matter. Then week 2 came and I looked at the missions/mission modifiers/and 'curses' you would have to run and I went "Hell no, I'm not doing that." I actually had fantastic loadout RNG (Lavos/Nataruk/Laetum/my melee all sucked) but it looked so 'unfun' I didn't even spend the pulses to try it. I just ran my netracells for the week and moved on.

Week 3 came and DE actually gave me Styanax as one of my options. I ignored the -75% duration curse and went for the 34/37 reward. Played it public and I think I could have carried pretty much any team. But I had Styanax, Wisp, Gauss and Dante for my team. None of us even lost our OVERGUARD for any of the 3 missions. And even with that I wouldn't say I had fun. I wouldn't say I "actually enjoy Deep Archimedea, I just need to get through them."

[PublikDomain]

Nevermind, I'll just quote OP instead:

2 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

You are genuinely being a nuisance in this thread (and from the looks of it, other threads as well) and mostly picking fights instead of contributing meaningfully. Please start your own thread and keep your epic Reddit downvote clapbacks somewhere else.

Edited April 21 by PublikDomain

[Seralyna]

Myself and my friend group of friends are having a lot of fun with the mode. It's the first time we've experienced a game mode that actually makes us as a team try to figure out not only how to approach a mission, but also how to change our loudouts to accomodate. Switching around arcanes, mods, and even helminth abilities, alongside trying to make the most of our single free slot. I have some issues with the mode for sure, but its by far the most fun I've had playing in a squad of 4.

[Magnus]

19 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

Deep Archimedea's influences are important to what it attempts to be. At its core, it is a challenge mode where you lock your loadout and do 3 missions in a row with modifiers for challenge. 

Deep Rock Galactic's Deep Dives are just this, although the systems in DRG are not as deep as Warframe's. There can be modifiers on missions that serve to add challenge or change the experience, and sometimes, on a "bad" week, the missions can be more frustrating than fun, and you just end up not doing them.

For Warframe's Deep Archimedea, this is every week.

In the Deep Archimedea experience, various gates for the player are put up. Rewards are set behind limits that the player can choose to impose, and the Elite adds more challenge to this. Unfortunately, "challenge" is all that was considered during this. To get the "most" out of a DA, you have 3 negative modifiers each for all 3 missions, lock yourself to a random loadout, and turn on a further 4 self imposed modifiers, some of which turn off game mechanics. You can choose not to take some of these challenges for fewer rewards.

What DA forgets is that the gameplay can also be a reward. Notably, Duviri also limits the player by turning off gear and locking you to a random loadout. What sets it apart, and makes not just the end, but the means rewarding, is found in the decrees. Some of the decrees also have negative modifiers, but they all serve to change the experience and alter the gameplay of the player, eventually building up such that the challenge itself is fun, and the game turns limitations into possibilities.

Deep Archimedea offers no such reprieve. You put all these limits on for the rewards you want, but the way your gameplay is changed is in not having an Operator or your shields become unreliable. The reward is what happens at the end of the gameplay, and you just have to grin and bear it. You don't get any bonuses for your limited loadout, and every single modifier is weighed against you. In its contemporary, DRG's Deep Dives, not every mission has a modifier, and sometimes those modifiers can be to your benefit! The best equivalent to DRG's "Critical Weakness" modifier (do more damage on weak spots) is Warframe's "Sealed Armor" (Enemies take 90% less damage from non-weak point hits). There is little to nothing to incentivize actually enjoying the mode, just to mitigate its mechanics.

Perhaps add something beneficial to the limitations, and make it so that the player gets bonuses for Individual Parameters. Weapons or Warframe can get small buffs, adding a little for every loadout piece conformed to after the first. For every "curse" selected after the first, one of the negative modifiers on a stage could become a positive modifier, such as Sealed Armor becoming more like DRG's Critical Weakness.

As it stands, there's no reason to actually enjoy Deep Archimedea, just get through them.

 

You and others may find the gameplay unfun or not engaging for Archies. But I absolutely do.

 

Challenge is something that does not exist in Warframe. Challenge has left this game long, long ago. The only "challenge" is self-imposed limitations, or an unfortunately chronic amount of stupidity. Things are all made pretty straight forward, and the tools to succeed are thrown at a player like confetti. It's easy to pick the right tools for the right job everywhere else.

And suddenly, that's gone. Suddenly, players have to think. Players have to coordinate. While I have a frame that will carry us in this mission, a friend of mine will have one that can dominate the next... if it weren't for a certain modifier. But this other frame he has, if we use it with my second choice, can easily do both together. Suddenly, I'm thinking of workarounds. Suddenly, coordination has returned to Warframe. It has enough of a chance to be harder to do even as an end game player where you're rewarded for just... coordinating with another person in a healthy way.

But I also recognize that players are generally entitled and toxic. They want to have the winning play, rather than it be a team effort more often than not. They wanna be the leader, barking orders at others while someone barks orders at them, too. There are downsides to having something that encourages coordination, but it's always important to remember: Not everything is for everyone.

 

As a long time player, I am also rewarded for my commitment in Archies. Every frame and weapon offered to me, I have forma'd already. This is also a big part of why I like Duviri. You have seven days to do the weekly, so you're given time to prepare the gear you're offered as well if you haven't come as far. I feel as though the game is meeting me in a fair middle ground, where it's asking me to put what I have ready to the test, how good my knowledge is of meta, especially team composition.

That kind of feeling of validation is also woefully absent in Warframe, much like challenge itself. I know my frames, what they're good at, what they can do together, and rarely is that knowledge flexed. While Elite Archies are maybe the hardest content in game, I wouldn't say it's hard still, but for the first time in years, I actually feel challenged; to flex my knowledge, my adaptability, in a more hostile environment, a different environment even. Suddenly I don't have my Operator? Then I need to know what I'm doing with my frame a lot more. 

Or, in a lot less words... I have to put in some effort for the first time in maybe 10 years. I enjoy the coordinating, the details and fine points of selecting gear, overcoming different limitations, because I can flex and do that.

 

I enjoy Archies greatly as they are as a long time and very overpowered player. And not just that, I'm also handsomely rewarded. I still need a lot more Archon Shards.

However, I'm not opposed to more fun modifiers either. Stupid things that make no sense but benefit the player, such as all ragdolled enemies always clump onto upright enemies. The player gets more damage out of it, and it's just funny to see, too.

 

---

Edit: And just as an aside, if you're trying to discredit players as "randomizer adepts", or in human terms, someone who put more time into the game than you, for... having put more time into the game than you, that doesn't make you right, you're just finding a nonsensical excuse to put down entirely valid criticism that is from a different view point than your own because it's from a different viewpoint than your own.

I can say with confidence, this game mode is definitely not for you if the downside is preparation. Archies is the alternative for getting more than what Netracells offers. The player choice is to engage with it or not and simply do Netracells instead.

The world won't be handed to you on a silver platter, nor is that what people want exclusively from games. The reason Souls games are so popular is because you have to earn your victories, and if you just dismiss anyone because they like Souls, then you deserve to be gatekept.

"Everyone having fun is just pretending to" is completely toxic and doesn't belong on any game.

Edited April 21 by Magnus

[Mr.Holyroller]

I love EDA,
I think people just freakout because failure is uncommon in warframe

[PR1D3]

9 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Spoiler

I'm actually one of those people who was glad that DE reconsidered and moved the shard from Kahl's missions to the Bird. Now I can do literally any and all missions in the Entrati labs, get 30k standing and get the shard. Be it doing Bounties-for-Standing directly or literally any other mission type in that tileset and just collect Voca. Yes, including Netracells or even DA/EDA and still get enough standing from Voca alone, all while having all these alternatives on where I get enough Standing to buy the shard.

-1.

Or I could just go farm SP for Acolytes/do Void Cascade for Thraxxes/Lua Conjunction Survival for Lua Thrax Plasm(Yonta's currency), get Arcanes through there, dissolve them into Vosfor and roll the RNG on the Plains of Eidolon pack of Arcanes. All without even touching Eidolons in the first place. Yup, an alternative.

-1.

Rotations are not even a problem, nor were ever even discussed anywhere. I have not ever said a single word that Rotation A should give out Rotation C rewards or something.  And besides... There is still more than enough variety and alternatives here too: you can do Survival or Defense or Excavation or Disruption or other "endless" types... Whatever floats your boat, so to speak. And still get same relics from the same equal rotation on every mission type. Or you could literally outright buy relic packs, from multiple sources - be it reputation, Steel Essence or even plat. Plenty of alternatives!

-1.

Yes, I do, if I just run the low-risk index multiple times instead of going for high risk once. The amount of Credits in the end piles up to the same amount. It's all just about time and effort. Not that I would ever run low-risk Index these days, but it's still an option and a solid alternative, if one would be willing to do the same thing multiple times with lesser reward to eventually get the same exact amount as running one, but of a higher difficulty.

-1.

Incarnon adapters are on a rotation. Per week, you can pick 2 adapters - one will be on Tier 5, the other on Tier 10 reward. So, mathematically, if you only run every single week up to Tier 5 instead of Tier 10... It would simply take you double the time to get all the incarnon adapters available in the rotation, compared to the case of getting both (T5 and T10 rewards). Because yes, it's a rotation that comes back after a couple of weeks. Adapters are "finite" reward that you don't really need any duplicates of(unless you really want to). And then you "complete" the mode, get all the rewards out of it (all the 35 adapters or less, if you don't want literally every single one of them) and never even touch the mode again - because not having them wouldn't affect your gameplay in any way. Either way... Is it slower to only pick Tier 5 and not bother with Tier 10, cuz it takes longer to get from 5 to 10 than it is from 1 to 5? Sure, it is slower in the grand scheme of things. Twice the time in the end overall to get all of them. But is it an alternative? Oh, it very much is. Because in the end, you still can get all of them.

Archon shards from Archon Hunts, Bird 3, Netracells or DA/EDA are surely "ever present" and on a weekly rotation, but... TECHNICALLY... If you miss out a week and don't buy it / complete the missions in that one week - you will simply have less shards than someone who didn't miss it. If you miss two weeks - you're already having even less shards. And with every next missed week that you skipped, you will always have less. And they won't ever come back. "Those shards that you skipped" aren't coming back, ever. You only can get new ones, from the new weeks.

-1.

Here's the thing though. Relics are always RNG. Regardless if it's Intact or Radiant... It's always RNG. Sure, the chances and percentages are skewed depending on the relic type, BUT... RNG will always be RNG. You can have insane luck and get all them "gold" rewards from base Intact relics a whole lot of time. Or RNGsus may be angry at you for some reason and no matter how many Radiant relics you use, you'll still always get them "bronze" rewards in most cases. Even if chances/percentages move around, it's still RNG.

So I don't see how this can be compared to this case here. Sure, there is still RNG involved inside the drops themselves - you can get either regular shard or Tau or an arcane or an arcane adapter. But there is not RNG behind whether you "get it or not". You either DO - by participating in the gear randomizer - or you DON'T, by not participating in it. And that is very much a problem, because gear randomizer is anti-fun, anti-player, poorly designed game mechanic that goes against what Warframe is as a game.

Oh and yeah. There's always an alterantive - just sell all the "wrong" items you've just farmed for plat and outright buy the item that you've tried getting, but RNG wasn't on your side that day. Yup.

-1.

Imagine being bothered by a cosmetic poster or bringing it into a discussion about NON-cosmetic rewards, which directly affect the gameplay - unlike any and all cosmetics. And yes, shards, arcanes and even arcane adapters all affect the gameplay. Cosmetics don't. So why even bring this one up, I'm not sure.

-1.

 

And thus... None of the points in your post are even remotely viable to being a counter-argument. Sorry.

----------------------------------------------------

And that's, folks, exactly what I was talking about. The "pseudo-elitism". Assuming a high ground above someone, thinking you're "better" because you are ready to blindly praise anything that DE does, while attacking anyone who DARES to put out criticism of their work. Sure. Laugh all you want. I'm glad I could make your day and feel better for yourself. Bathe in your status of a Giga-chad, you've "won" an argument on the internet, yay! (you didn't, btw, but you can imagine you did)

----------------------------------------------------

Same thing as I want. And most others want too. Problem is - it requires effort and thought put into it. DE just gave us "Sortie 3.0", with frustrating Gear Randomizer slapped on top. Yet here we have people defending it like if it's some "NEW AND BRAVE DIRECTION" for the game. It's not new, nor brave. It's just lazy and poorly implemented.

And since this is a Feedback section of the forum... I'm pretty sure anyone is allowed to speak their mind. Regardless if it's positive feedback or actual criticism of the bad things about it. Too bad that fanatical fanboys think that nobody's allowed to do the latter. And they'll instantly come to "shut you down". If you look closely, all other threads that criticized DA/EDA have been highjacked in the same fashion, with people telling how they "enjoy" it and whatnot.

----------------------------------------------------

And in a "power fantasy game" this is bad... how? Or why? 

It's not bad. It's by design. It's how Warframe is supposed to be. A power-fantasy, where you choose how to mass-murder armies and commit all sorts of warcrimes. Be it slashing to bits with melee weapons, burning to dust with abilities, putting a few too many extra holes in their bodies and more. "Trivializing" through modding, building and finding the best combinations is literally the whole point of Warframe. Building your own Tenno warrior - Warframe, Primary, Seconary, Melee, Operator, Mods and Arcanes in all of those, often combining the functionality of benefits of all of those together into an unstoppable murder-machine that you're supposed to be. That's what Warframe is, that's what "power fantasy game" means.

DA/EDA with its Randomizer Gear takes away any sort of player agency and your choice of gear. It takes away the whole point of the game at the core. All while locking away rewards behind this mechanic that takes away the main point of Warframe. 

----------------------------------------------------

In the same way people are already not even bothering to "modify" any of their gear to match the CURRENT state of DA/EDA. They just pick whatever randomizer tells them to and either go pub-leeching/using Necramech or 2-by-2/carry runs. DA/EDA is not a "mode" that you play constantly. It's Sortie 3.0. You do it once a week, as a "weekly", as a "one-time a week and forget", get rewards, don't bother touching until the rewards are reset. No sane person who values their time will bother even specifically modding/changing their build to match something they will play ONCE in THIS ONE WEEK. This applies to their own desired gear and the randomizer-chosen sticks and stones. 

I'm not saying DE is "bad". But I've been around Warframe since the beginning, with pauses. DE made a lot of great choices over the years... but also quite a few bad choices as well. DA/EDA is one of such bad choices. Does it make them "S#&$ty game dev"? No. Everyone makes mistakes. Even game devs. It's just a matter if we - as a players - speak out against un-fun, frustrating and honestly very bad game design, for it to be fixed by DE, based on our feedback.

And once again. I don't see folks create as many threads with positive feedback. Most who actually claim to like this whole thing actually come to negative feedback threads and start conflicts... Like this one. And we - the ones who started these threads with criticism - are allowed to defend ourselves and our points of view, eh? :)

Cheers.

 

Those responses. I could go on about how your responses to Public don't address anything he said, the same with mine on how I would never criticize DE and how stupid your elitism rant was. But, what's the point? I'm correct that engaging with you seriously is pointless and the time would be better spent meme'ing on you.

PS

I had went into recruiting chat, found a group, we coordinated, failed part 1 twice before we created a solid strategy to get past, did the last 2 with mostly no issues. Got 3 shards including a Tauforge with 3 copies of Melee Duplicate. And a ton of Stella. I might actually buy a booster and run it again to get a stockpile going. The squad were some cool dudes. We had FUN with our backs against the wall and overcoming adversity. One sided power fantasy not necessary. It's a shame you're not going to get these same rewards cause reasons. The filtering will continue.

 

[Stormandreas]

16 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Unfortunately the time to start doing this was, like, six-plus years ago. I do not see how DE ever walks Warframe back from the abyss with their current model and incentives. It would take years of concerted effort to wrangle our power, MASSIVE nerfs to all mods across the board, and I just do not see that ever flying.

Like, take the rage over the AoE nerfs, multiply that by five, and make it constant for years. I'm pretty sure it would kill the company stone dead. Heck, look at the reaction to just Dante getting nerfed.

Which is why I don't think they're really trying these days. Just a few fixes or nerfs here and there to stop obnoxious gameplay, but otherwise just letting players go absolutely nuts outside of artificially enforced difficulty via various modifiers and RNG. Because they'd need a sequel to really sort all this out and start from zero, and that's what Soulframe is going to be. 

Sadly, I do think you're right.

It's pretty sad to see that WF has kinda been relegated to this just power slinging murder fest. While it's fun for a time, it does eventually lack substance, and does feel directionless the further in you get.

Hell, even with the lore you can see it's all over the place and really not planned out long term. For those of us who've been here the whole time, we can attest to that as updates and plans came in drips and draps. No roadmaps, no clear hints towards way in the future story points... things just kinda... happen whenever they do and are then forgotten.

I dunno if they are going into Soulframe trying to resolve any of those shortcomings. We'll have to see about that. It does look like they have a generic direction for where they want the setting of the game to be, though they've said very little about a directional story or progression, which is just like how WF started. It makes me think they'll end up doing the exact same thing.

16 hours ago, Exploderizer said:

Truthfully I have no qualms with the randomized loadout, I agree with others that allowing players to bring whatever they want would remove too much of the friction and challenge present in E/DA, I just think there's room for DE to remove some of that friction themselves to incentivize people to play differently other than just "hey, don't you want a shiny tau shard?" I personally don't think it would be too interesting if people just brought their best gear and trivialize the mode, but I also think the limitation should read like "look at the shiny toy, you can do more with these things in your loadout" rather than it feeling like they're smacking your hand away. It's not literally like that, but it's the closest example that comes to mind.

Netracells allow you to bring anything and are trivialized by this, but it also seems like a bit of fun gameplay was let in by accident, with the Wampyri Glyph (take constant damage, kills restore health) being a good example of a mechanic that both harms and helps the player. That modifier reads more like one of the anomalies in DRG rather than the stacking hazards of Warframe's E/DA.

I do agree that our loadouts currently are so insanely overpowered that everything is trivialized. Overguard is the example I use currently. Previously it was Revenant.

Absolutely agree about the Wamphyri glyph. These I take absolutely 0 issue with at all. They add incentive to do something, because the drawback will result in failure. That's absolutely very similar to Deep Dives in all honesty. The thing with DRG though, is we aren't all powerful super gods in that game, so even 1 modifier can be a near death sentence. WF's power levels are well beyond 9000, so a simple modifier of "low oxygen" or "volatile bugs" just doesn't cut it to make the mission hard.

I think part of the issue does come down to, we are so powerful now, DE think slapping on 7 of these modifiers per mission isn't enough, and so turned back to the randomized loadouts that Circuit has.
There's 2 solutions I can think of real quick while typing.

1. Removing the randomized loadouts, refining the modifiers to make them truely dangerous and then reducing the amount of them. Alongside this, up the enemy level into the thousands.
2. Keeping random loadouts, but at the very minimum putting a check in the game to provide at least 1 item the person owns into each loadout slot. This way you're at least going to be able to participate in the E/DA, even if the other options (that you don't own currently), are much better picks. This gives players more autonomy of choice to go "Do I slug it out, or farm for these things and do it later in the week". Plus refining the modifiers and reducing the quantity of them would help a little in the fun department.

Part of why we hear "DA isn't fun" is because of the random loadouts and because of that friction you mentioned.
I'd love alternate ways to use my gear, but I don't want alternate games inside my game, if that makes sense?
Kahl is a perfect example. Is it an alternate way to play? Sort of.
Is it fun because I'm using what I've earned? Not at all.

I loathed doing Kahl each week for the archon shard because I was just being ripped away from the gear I've earned and sunk time into. Circuit gets the same feeling by a lot of players, and now E/DA.
At the very least with E/DA, we have a bit more choice, though we get punished for not participating in the loadout restrictions by not being allowed to obtain the rewards, with no alternatives.
If we had other ways of obtaining the required research points... alternate ways of using our gear, now that would be interesting!

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Sort of. When the "freedom of choice" in this case is really the "freedom to choose to trivialize the game", players being able to make that choice is itself the problem. You can't have a challenging mode when players are free to choose to not make it a challenge. One of DE's only practical solutions is to incentivize not making that choice.

I think what Shogun and Exploder said responds to this well.

The freedom of choice does trivialize things, though that is an inherent problem with the games design nowadays rather than just giving players the freedom of choice, a problem that has been festering for years.

DE either have to review the whole game, which as Shogun said could be catastrophic, or, provide meaningful interesting alternatives that give us the freedom to use our earned gear in different ways, for the same rewards.

Hell, they could make EDA a "no random loadout" option but then have the modifiers ramped up to 11 with much much higher level enemies and a no bleedout penalty, and use normal DA for the standard random loadout, but less other restrictions.
Have both mods able to earn the same rewards.
NOW we have options. Do we stick to random loadouts and try make it work? Or do we go hardcore mode, take whatever we want, but have to start all over again if we go down just one time?

Options are good for player autonomy and reducing the friction that Exploder mentioned.

[Karyst]

On 2024-04-21 at 5:22 AM, Exploderizer said:

Deep Archimedea's influences are important to what it attempts to be. At its core, it is a challenge mode where you lock your loadout and do 3 missions in a row with modifiers for challenge. 

Deep Rock Galactic's Deep Dives are just this, although the systems in DRG are not as deep as Warframe's. There can be modifiers on missions that serve to add challenge or change the experience, and sometimes, on a "bad" week, the missions can be more frustrating than fun, and you just end up not doing them.

For Warframe's Deep Archimedea, this is every week.

In the Deep Archimedea experience, various gates for the player are put up. Rewards are set behind limits that the player can choose to impose, and the Elite adds more challenge to this. Unfortunately, "challenge" is all that was considered during this. To get the "most" out of a DA, you have 3 negative modifiers each for all 3 missions, lock yourself to a random loadout, and turn on a further 4 self imposed modifiers, some of which turn off game mechanics. You can choose not to take some of these challenges for fewer rewards.

What DA forgets is that the gameplay can also be a reward. Notably, Duviri also limits the player by turning off gear and locking you to a random loadout. What sets it apart, and makes not just the end, but the means rewarding, is found in the decrees. Some of the decrees also have negative modifiers, but they all serve to change the experience and alter the gameplay of the player, eventually building up such that the challenge itself is fun, and the game turns limitations into possibilities.

Deep Archimedea offers no such reprieve. You put all these limits on for the rewards you want, but the way your gameplay is changed is in not having an Operator or your shields become unreliable. The reward is what happens at the end of the gameplay, and you just have to grin and bear it. You don't get any bonuses for your limited loadout, and every single modifier is weighed against you. In its contemporary, DRG's Deep Dives, not every mission has a modifier, and sometimes those modifiers can be to your benefit! The best equivalent to DRG's "Critical Weakness" modifier (do more damage on weak spots) is Warframe's "Sealed Armor" (Enemies take 90% less damage from non-weak point hits). There is little to nothing to incentivize actually enjoying the mode, just to mitigate its mechanics.

Perhaps add something beneficial to the limitations, and make it so that the player gets bonuses for Individual Parameters. Weapons or Warframe can get small buffs, adding a little for every loadout piece conformed to after the first. For every "curse" selected after the first, one of the negative modifiers on a stage could become a positive modifier, such as Sealed Armor becoming more like DRG's Critical Weakness.

As it stands, there's no reason to actually enjoy Deep Archimedea, just get through them.

If there was challenge to play with monitor off I'd tick the box

[Exploderizer]

13 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I love EDA,
I think people just freakout because failure is uncommon in warframe

That's not what this post is about. I'm not complaining about it being too difficult to complete, or even how difficult it is at all, just that the difficulty is added in a way that isn't interesting beyond "it's a lot". It's fine that you like it, I'm not saying this opinion isn't allowed or is wrong, but all you really said in response to "this mode could be improved somewhat, here's why and how" is "I like it, but people think it's too hard." This doesn't really provide anything to the conversation. 

 

8 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Those responses. I could go on about how your responses to Public don't address anything he said, the same with mine on how I would never criticize DE and how stupid your elitism rant was. But, what's the point? I'm correct that engaging with you seriously is pointless and the time would be better spent meme'ing on you.

 

 

Squabbles aren't the point of this conversation, either. I insist your time would be better spent keeping this nonsense off my thread, thanks in advance. 

 

 

 

While I appreciate everyone's subjective view of fun, and I also agree that the tuning of E/DA being for a full squad of people actually does add a layer of interest to it most of the rest of the game lacks (RIP Trials), I feel it's not enough, and personally, I find the fun in E/DA to be had in spite of the mode and modifiers, and not directly building out of how DE has implemented the challenge. 

My post wasn't really about how E/DA sucks and you shouldn't do it, how it's too hard and I can't complete it, or how the rewards are insufficient, because I don't think any of these things are true. Arguing about that is missing the forest for the trees, this isn't a post complaining about the mode, rather how I feel it's a bit joyless compared to its contemporaries both off-game (DRG's Deep Dives) and in-game (Duviri Circuit). 

I have read through and am thankful for the thoughtful comments on the thread. I understand that DRG, the game I compare this to, presents a very different game with very different balancing and scaling, but I disagree that it's so much more difficult to throw the player a bone with the modifiers in E/DA to try and make it different instead of just difficult. 

Edited April 22 by Exploderizer

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

By being able to always pick the strongest, most invincible frames paired with the most strongest, most deadly weapons?

How would that not make the mode easier to do? Of course it will make it easier. You get to freely take all of your busted, overpowered gear every week. You know what people do with that freedom already? They play the game at levelcap. Where do you go from there? Levelcap++?

RNG isn't great, but it does reduce the amount that the above happens.

It wouldnt allow for that any more than the current system does since you'd still face a combination of 8 modifications per week that could wreck what you planned to bring. With others potentially restricting the effectiveness of what you can bring. And since it seems like we will always get some items we own (4th week and I still havent seen a category where I dont own anything) people can already game the system if they like and always have access to one free choice to circumvent the 4 modifications.

With 7-8 modification that can restrict your power across item classes would have a higher impact on how much it takes to trivialize the mode. Since you'd face 10-11 modifications per mission. Right now in order to trivialize things completely you need 1 decently matching weapon out of 9 to combine with the frame free of choice, or if you get one out of those desired frames you are free to pick the most powerful weapon you have access to instead.

It wouldnt really matter if you bring that OP gear if the week also penalizes it heavily through mods. If that OP weapon only produces 1% out of its total damage potential it will not trivialize things, and you are incentiviced to pick something more appropriate that works with the debuffs. Sure you will end up with lucky weeks, but that already occurs and is intended. I've had no real lucky week, yet each week has been trivialized by that single free choice and decent item pulls. That you bring up levelcap is completely irrelevant since the regular game does not penalize us further, it gives you full access to the power you pick, which EDA wouldnt except on lucky weeks.

20 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

LMAO you honestly think this is better? You're still going to get the same complaints now. If you honestly think WF players are going to modify their builds to accommodate some modifier you're fooling yourself. You would still get floored by all the comments of "you're punishing me for using x,y,z", "you're invalidating my build and not respecting my investment", "you're forcing me to do something I normally wouldn't", and "I'm getting punished and locked out of rewards cause I refuse to play the game in the specific way DE wants". I would bet money you will still get those complaints and a few comments saying you're a S#&$ game dev who doesn't understand what true "fun" is.

I dont give a flying #*!% if it reduces complaints or not, it is about making the mode better and more interesting. Building around things is more interesting than getting poop-shooter X that you'll just grab for the sake of research and not use once throughout the missions. This is the first week I've actually used all my 3 weapon pulls, since I got Boar, Despair and Hate, all solid and useful when used as opposed to other weeks where I've used 1 out of 3 weapons mostly and the rest have just been research sticks.

Week 1 Sibear+Rev for normal, swapped out Rev for Kullervo in EDA to just 1HK mechs.

Week 2 Laetum and whatever, free picked Dante to kill everything and keep everyone immortal on boss.

Week 3 Dual Keres Prime and Kohm, free picked Nezha due to -75% skill duration, which does little for him and is also semi beneficial on his new mod.

Week 4 Boar, Despair, Hate, free picked Inaros due to being able to move adds away from boss as needed to avoid unwanted detonations. Could have picked Dante aswell to just be a OG bot on boss with some dps uptime.

It isnt exactly a good system when 2/3 picks are completely forgotten and just there as some point increase for rewards. I'd rather see a system that limits whole classes but leaves you with choices you might actually use due to not being targetted by the debuff penalties. I'm not gonna sit down and pick up all weapons because they might pull for EDA at some point, since when they do I'll likely have 1 choice anyways that I'll use, with the other weapon simply there as research no matter how modded it is. And if it is based on giving you some items you own as guarantees, there is no way in Hel I'll water down those pulls by waste of space weapons.

20 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

Those are good suggestions erv for sure, but they won't necessarily give you incentive to diversify your arsenal as much as an RNG system will.

I also don't see small buffs to random things having much of an impact.

I think people are failing to take advantage of operator, gearwheel, companion, and the mech.  All those are way more useful than any small buff will give.

You won't always have those, but between those, RNG, and one modifier you should get a competent setup.

Use armor strip from helminth or unairu.  Specters and companion DPS.

There are some bad weapons out there, but there's also a lot of good weapons being ignored and a randomizer is really the only way to draw attention to those things.

The problem is that the randomizer wont bring attention to those ignored weapons, since if they are ignored people wont own them. This isnt Duviri where people get to use them when pulled, this is where you get to use them if pulled and you already own them. And I dont think anyone will rush off to build some randomly pulled weapon for the week to test it in EDA.

You make good points regarding gear. It is also why I'd like to see more modifications instead of randomized loadouts, since modifications could result in a higher chance to end up without access to the gearwheel/operator etc.. Which increases the challenge overall aswell, since you'd have no access to ancient healer, or operator based armor strip/self res and so on. I mean yeah it already is part of the system, but seeing it more frequently would have more impact than a few random weapon you wont use anyways.

Edited April 22 by SneakyErvin

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-04-21 at 5:26 AM, 8Ball06 said:

We literally never go outside.

What is this outside? A new area?

[obiwandandobi2]

1 minute ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

What is this outside? A new area?

The true end game!

[Karyst]

7 minutes ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

What is this outside? A new area?

 

6 minutes ago, obiwandandobi2 said:

The true end game!

When will they add shards outside?

[obiwandandobi2]

1 minute ago, Karyst said:

 

When will they add shards outside?

Rainbow shards but you have to close your eyes when choosing clothes and walk out in whatever you chose