Jade Shadows Discussion

[Prexades]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb moondog548:

Implies both that women are inherently "baby crazy" and men inherently lack parental instincts/compassion.

The curse of the 'modern audience' I guess. A lot of media failing these days because 'girlboss' is the only acceptable form of feminity allowed by social media.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

🤔 The Myrmidon? I'm not quite sure where that fits in.

You really don't?

That thing was functionally an evil Warframe and it was controlled by a special bluetooth crown that was functionally Transference. Just never called that. And I think if DE HAD called them that, there would be way less ambiguity 

 

Oh and both of you:

15 minutes ago, DeathHasCome1 said:

is this one... like you?

Don't forget the answer turns out to be "no." Stalker doesn't love Jade because they're alike in the modern age (need I remind you, they aren't alike in the modern age, not by the definitions held by the characters). Stalker already loved Jade before they both changed into their current forms

[0bsi]

17 minutes ago, DeathHasCome1 said:

I don't know, our operators say pretty definitively during the quest that stalker is a warframe. The exact quote is already above but I'd say our operator saying:
 

You're here... for help? For a Warframe?

Why? You hate Warframes. Unless...

is this one... like you?

 

At least implies that the Stalker is a warframe of some form, though exactly how that works obviously isn't explained, nor is his hate for other warframes.

 

The "like you" implies Stalker is NOT a warframe.
 

You're here... for help? For a Warframe?
Why? You hate Warframes. Unless...
is this one (this "warframe")... like you? (Not actually a warframe, but something else)

[Sivos]

On 2024-06-18 at 7:00 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Correct me if I’m wrong. But is Jade a pregnant Warframe. We are playing a pregnant Warframe?! 

She was pregnant.  Notice she's represented as an angel and how the quest heavily implied she died.  She's the Warframe of Maternal Death, one who died during childbirth.

[Sivos]

Jade uses the Jade Light as the source of her powers.  Was she the one executing people, like Margulis?  If so, what if the baby has the souls of those who died by the Jade Light? 😂

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

You really don't?

That thing was functionally an evil Warframe and it was controlled by a special bluetooth crown that was functionally Transference. Just never called that. And I think if DE HAD called them that, there would be way less ambiguity 

No, I really don't? Was the Myrmidon suggested to be a Low Guardian or something?

Quote

A preternatural beast-figure straight out of myth he was, one whose prey had no equal.

...

Clad in red-and-gold armor it gestured to the first Warframe with what Porvis describes as 'a strange clutching motion, as if seizing a falling apple'.

...

Frustrated he again made that same elaborate gesture, trying his luck, and she saw it: that bracelet upon the wrist that glowed softly with the movement of that clutching gesture.

...

With inhuman speed shot after shot snapped and plucked each segment of carapace from the Myrmidon's lean frame. Straps severing, clips popping, he was undressed with swift efficiency by the preternatural accuracy of her aim and rapidity. Even before her final arrow belted the visored helmet from his head, she had the killing shot nocked and ready.

There he stood: the Myrmidon. Slayer of Warframes. Naked. Beauty, symmetry, even the capacity for language, sacrificed for... raw power. But his face... his face was the mockery of an Orokin face: those she was sworn to never kill.

...

Before the assembled Council she dropped him, and with it the Myrmidon's battered helmet. Here he would meet justice at the hands of his own people.

The Myrmidon seems pretty clearly described as wearing armor/clothing and being Orokin-like, and that's why Ivara brings him to the Seven. It doesn't have powers, either, it uses a device on its wrist. Since we already know the Orokin enjoyed gene editing and changing bodies I don't see why the Myrmidon couldn't have been what it's described as: a heavily modified body/person Ballas liked to use when testing Warframes' loyalty.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Don't forget the answer turns out to be "no." Stalker doesn't love Jade because they're alike in the modern age (need I remind you, they aren't alike in the modern age, not by the definitions held by the characters). Stalker already loved Jade before they both changed into their current forms

I'm not sure what love has to do with that quote??? And when did the answer turn out to be "no"? The Operator is pretty clearly asking Stalker about the Warframe he's trying to help. And there was no answer following that line other than Ordis presuming that neither had much of their sanity left at this point - which makes a lot of sense since as we know uncontrolled Warframes tend to degrade mentally as time goes by. And then the Tenno transfers into Jade and catches a glimpse of her memory before being kicked out - the same way we saw Umbra's memories in The Sacrifice.

1 hour ago, 0bsi said:

The "like you" implies Stalker is NOT a warframe.
 

You're here... for help? For a Warframe?
Why? You hate Warframes. Unless...
is this one (this "warframe")... like you? (Not actually a warframe, but something else)

🤔 If I ask you if oranges are like tangerines, does that mean I'm actually asking if tangerines are not like tangerines? I'm not sure how you've reached that conclusion.

Is this one... [similar to] you?
Is this one... [the same as] you?
Is this one... [also an uncontrolled Warframe] like you?
etc.

The Operator is asking Stalker if the Warframe he's trying to help is like him. We already know she's a Warframe, and the Operator is asking if she's the same kind of Warframe as Stalker. That is, a non-Tenno Warframe like Umbra and Chroma and all the other examples we have - as opposed to a controlled Warframe like Harrow or the ones we use ourselves.

Edited June 20 by PublikDomain

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, PublikDomain said:

The Myrmidon seems pretty clearly described as wearing armor/clothing and being Orokin-like, and that's why Ivara brings him to the Seven. It doesn't have powers, either, it uses a device on its wrist. Since we already know the Orokin enjoyed gene editing and changing bodies I don't see why the Myrmidon couldn't have been what it's described as: a heavily modified body/person Ballas liked to use when testing Warframes' loyalty.

Setting aside the powers thing (Warframe powers are all tech-based) the thing I was focusing on is:

The Mymidon is a remote combat body. A sort of, I dunno, battle-frame, rated for war operations

I dunno, I'm just seeing it as another candidate for a theory very similar to yours. What if there are more kinds of Warframes, and Tenno Warframes are only one kind? Kullervo, Excalibur, Umbra, Myrmidon, Low Guardian; a timeline of battle-frames...

Regarding the Operator's question, I think you are jumping to conclusions in a few areas. And my read of the story is still simply: No, Stalker and Jade are not "alike," not in the way Operator's question implies.

Your read of the question is absolutely correct:

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Is this one... [similar to] you?
Is this one... [the same as] you?
Is this one... [also an uncontrolled Warframe] like you?
etc.

That is indeed what Operator is asking. The question is loaded. The question is presumptuous. It's loaded with what the Operator believes, and he tries to get Stalker to admit them to be correct.

But it's the wrong conclusion, based on the wrong assumption. The assumption the Stalker could only find camaraderie in a similar soul to himself, in someone just as dark and edgy as himself. And the reason I say this, is because Ordis shares in it. He accused Stalker of being just an insane monster, a wounded beast who hates everything that's not him

Ordis's assumptions about the Stalker are wrong. This is not a speculative read, the entire point of the quest is that Stalker loves his wife, proving Ordis's prejudice wrong. So if Ordis is wrong in his assumptions, what about the Operator's?

We don't see Stalker's memories directly. We do see memories that are shared by both Sorren and Jade

Another thing that happens is, the Operator learns all of what Jade knows immediately, but is very stingy with saying it out loud. Operator never says "Jade wants to die so she can give birth." He just alludes that it's time to let go. Time to acquiesce to Jade's wishes. So there is DEFINITELY no time for the Op to go "oh wow, I was totally wrong about you, you're in love with a Tenno-class Warframe and that's why your despair eats at you with so much hypocrisy." They just leave that part unsaid

[0bsi]

28 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The Operator is asking Stalker if the Warframe he's trying to help is like him. We already know she's a Warframe, and the Operator is asking if she's the same kind of Warframe as Stalker. That is, a non-Tenno Warframe like Umbra and Chroma and all the other examples we have - as opposed to a controlled Warframe like Harrow or the ones we use ourselves.

Yes, that's more or less what I meant.  I should have instead said that the "like you" implies Stalker is not a regular warframe (and is instead something like Umbra, or perhaps something different again) - which you're referring to as a non-Tenno Warframe.

[L3512]

13 hours ago, Agall said:

Conversion to a Warframe as punishment is a viable theory. I lean on the presumption that they were two random low guardians, but apart of a corp of low guardians that were probably all subjected to the helminth when it came time. Jade and Stalker just being unique. Stalker might've been just another Excalibur Warframe otherwise, but his Umbra style rage made him something else. 

Have we ever got confirmation on why a Warframe ends up as an Excalibur versus an Ash? Is it a different strain or just something that happens because of qualities in the host?

Once the Warframe is created, it can simply be 3D printed from blueprints. So the idea of converting people to WFs to feed the war doesn't hold water IMO.

Second idea to consider is that the Orokin had very high levels of technology, Dax are generally portrayed as equal to or superior to a warframe in combat, per The Sacrifice, Warframe abilities must be technology rather the void based as Umbra makes free use of these abilities. Also in The Second Dream(?), Teshin can shut down a WF with ease, so Stalker could still a guy in an exosuit, albeit with some form of brain damage/interference rather than a WF.

Also shown in The Sacrifice was the Umbra was already a heroic Dax that fought with a Nikana so the WF infestation either mutates existing qualities or, more likely, Ballas tailors each strain to his desire. Though why you would turn an extinguished swordsman into a meat puppet that uses a sword is a bit unclear, so maybe its's a bit of both as we know WF's have feral instincts.

Comes back to your first part, pregnant woman to Warfarme as punishment out of boredom/lols/experimentation is in line with Ballas's general operating methods. Though in the new mission Parvos does talk about a heir, now given that Orokin are 100% self thinking, a heir might be an immortal WF they can transfer thier conscious into.

[XaoGarrent]

On 2024-06-18 at 1:30 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Option two. 

  Hide contents

There is a hint to it in the quest along the lines of "what if the Orokin finds out?". 

 

Pretty sure it's option 2.

I'm pretty sure what happened is that Jade and Sorren broke some law about having a child with someone in the wrong class, and their punishment was that they were turned into Warframes... It's possible Sorren's transformation came later, but Knowing Ballas, he would have demanded that Jade's Warframe transformation process begins before the child is born, because that sicko would absolutely delight in the opportunity to experiment on a pregnant woman.

Remember, this is the guy that mind controlled most of the solar system's population, and was unhappy and threw a petulant fit even though he won, because the plebs were content in their veils. He wasn't happy with the dystopia he created unless he was breaking people's will. I wouldn't be surprised if Ballas is also somehow responsible for Sorren's unresolvable hated and anguish.

Edited June 20 by XaoGarrent

[Keithy55]

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But this was back when the Sentients were first being proposed for terraforming Tau. So I dunno if chronologically it makes sense for Jade to be the Jade Light. There's also the Ivara Leverian story that describes the Myrmidon shooting using a green/emerald light as a weapon, so the Orokin must have been able to use it or something similar.

Then with that context, it could've been more like taking the weapon formally known as the Jade Light and putting it into the warframe Jade. If Ballas could put temporal manipulation into Protea, I'm sure putting the Jade Light into Jade was easy for him.

An alternative idea would be that the Jade Light was not called that UNTIL Jade the warframe was made. And the Orokin were treating it like any other weapon before then, then turning it into a warframe made it even more powerful that they decided to use her as an executioner.

[Corvid]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

(Warframe powers are all tech-based)

Er... no. They very much are not. They're localised reality warping effects accomplished through channelling the Void.

[Loza03]

On 2024-06-18 at 11:44 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 

  Hide contents

why would a pregnant warframe even be allowed? i can understand Jade being turned into one while she was pregnant, but how did the baby survive? WHY did the baby survive? why didn't the Orokin abort it? were they not worried it might interfere with the process of creating the Warframe? the Orokin would not have been above doing somehtign like that, we all know what they were like after all..

 

Spoiler

In fairness, it's the Orokin. I feel like given the choice between something powered by the blood of a forsaken child and something more effective but not, they would choose the forsaken child 11 times out of 10, inventing an additional, pointless orphan-crushing machine for fun.

 

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, Corvid said:

Er... no. They very much are not. They're localised reality warping effects accomplished through channelling the Void.

Reality warping? Yes because of Orokin science. Void based? This is what we thought up until Second Dream. But it turns out, no, the ethereal swords that Excalibur shoots out aren't Void at all, they're tech.

[Keithy55]

5 hours ago, Corvid said:

Er... no. They very much are not. They're localised reality warping effects accomplished through channelling the Void.

 

21 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Reality warping? Yes because of Orokin science. Void based? This is what we thought up until Second Dream. But it turns out, no, the ethereal swords that Excalibur shoots out aren't Void at all, they're tech.

Adding on to this topic, the warframe project and the Zariman Ten-Zero voyage are mutually exclusive (I think). But the Tenno were "coincidentally" the key to controlling the warframes, as said in the Sacrifice quest.

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, Corvid said:

Er... no. They very much are not. They're localised reality warping effects accomplished through channelling the Void.

I mean... a lot of Orokin tech is. Solar Rails are a good example. Channel enough void juice and you can break a couple laws of physics around acceleration, g-forces and relative location in space.

The Orokin terraformed a lot of planets that are impossible to terraform. Destiny has a literal god descending from the heavens to make places like Neptune and Venus livable. The Orokin just kinda did that because they wanted to.

[Genitive]

11 hours ago, Sivos said:

Jade uses the Jade Light as the source of her powers.  Was she the one executing people, like Margulis?

This seems to be the case, Parvos calls her an executioner.

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Reality warping? Yes because of Orokin science. Void based? This is what we thought up until Second Dream. But it turns out, no, the ethereal swords that Excalibur shoots out aren't Void at all, they're tech.

It is void based tech. The void is the core that allows them to do what they do, that was the case both prior to and after the tenno were a thing. 

[WERElektro]

I loved that quest.

As someone who did- and still does - not care for mister -"edgelord number 1" Stalker, I was surprised that ...this was "Enjoyable".
Exclamation marks because because I was SHOCKED. After all these years... And I've been playing on off since 2013.... all these quests they released had me like

"Meh... okay.... what's next?" (Minus WITW, which was also good)
No quest had me shocked like this yet. No quests had me actually feel ANYTHING yet.

I admit that

Spoiler

When it was unveiled that Jade - a Warframe - was pregnant, and that Breathing (?) minigame.... I cringed hard.
When the stalker held that beast in his arms, I was like "WWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? THEY DIDN'T!!!"

These feelings might have been... undefineable. neither good nor bad. But they were strong. I sat there with an open mouth for like...20 minutes after finishing the quest - which left me unable to continue playing - in the best possible way. I needed a short break, because that quest was so UPSETTING!

NO other quest had me like that yet!

And

Spoiler

Captain Xeto also had me very invested. Especially her reaction, which, admittedly, was a bit of a trope (Stone cold Killer Woman sees Baby -> Stone cold Killer woman's heart softens).... BUuUUUUUT we have a new Corpus character.

And I really hope to see her again in future content, yes please?

tldr.: Don't even care about Jade or Stalker, but this quest had me surprised. It was something I ABSOLUTELY did not expect to happen....
And this makes this quest so special. In the most positive way.

Well done, and more of this please!

[Cram_Duahcim]

12 hours ago, 0bsi said:

The "like you" implies Stalker is NOT a warframe.
 

You're here... for help? For a Warframe?
Why? You hate Warframes. Unless...
is this one (this "warframe")... like you? (Not actually a warframe, but something else)

He's basically Umbra. The quest implies that they were turned into warframes as a form of punishment. And this isn't the first time the game has shown Ballas do this. (I think this is actually the 3rd frame to be created this was (Dagath, Jade, Umbra). I'd say Stalker is #4.

Which makes Ballas all the more sinister, putting Jade through that.

With you logic you would also imply that Jade isn't a warframe, yet she is. 

So Stalker is too. And just like Umbra, can be tamed. 

[Cram_Duahcim]

22 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

It WOULD be a good time... if Stalker was a Warframe. And I'm still not convinced that he is. Does his chassis count as an Excalibur chassis? Does it count as ANY chassis? Does he have transference bolts or is the Drifter just asking politely? Is that Sorren's original body mutated, or did the original Sorren die during the Collapse and he's himself using transference to stay among the living? We need to answer all this before we can have playable Stalker

My thinking is when Stalker returns: He is going to get a complete overhaul. The only way he will be recognizable will be his helmet, after being infused with the Jade Light he's likely going to undergo some serious changes.

I still think it's only a matter of time before we acquire him. I think he will get his own abilities vs being a better Ash.

Edit: I'm also curious if we could see a "Proto Stalker" in WF1999

Edited June 20 by Cram_Duahcim

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The Mymidon is a remote combat body. A sort of, I dunno, battle-frame, rated for war operations

I dunno, I'm just seeing it as another candidate for a theory very similar to yours. What if there are more kinds of Warframes, and Tenno Warframes are only one kind? Kullervo, Excalibur, Umbra, Myrmidon, Low Guardian; a timeline of battle-frames...

Well we know from Naberus (and others) that the Orokin had fun messing around with bodies:

Quote

Then the three were very wicked, for what do you think they did? Down into the streets, they went, and they caught three poor Ostrons and bore them back to their gilded halls. One, they peeled like a fruit and decked out with glassy splinters, and his naked jaws went chitter-chatter-snap, and it echoed all around. Scarlet footprints he left. Another's limbs they twisted, and wretched his neck, and made a bundle of him, until he scuttled upsy-downsy like a horrid crab, with his sockets all empty and his stretched-out nose snuffling. The third they pulled thin in hand and foot. She walked spindly-wise on long tiptoes like a spider, and her entrails hung delicately down. She whispered, split-tongued and hissing, as she went.

Fine costumes we've made, chortled the three Orokin. Let us now try them on, and visit our friends!

Would they have any qualms with augmenting one of their spare bodies for combat? Which would fit the other parts of the description of the Myrmidon: Warframes don't really wear "clothes" as such, and if the Myrmidon were a Warframe why would Ivara have stopped? But she recognized it as an Orokin and couldn't kill it.

Either way though, if the Myrmidon is a Warframe then it's just another Warframe like all the others. All it'd tell us is that there are more Warframes, but we know that there are more Warframes.

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

But it's the wrong conclusion, based on the wrong assumption. The assumption the Stalker could only find camaraderie in a similar soul to himself, in someone just as dark and edgy as himself. And the reason I say this, is because Ordis shares in it. He accused Stalker of being just an insane monster, a wounded beast who hates everything that's not him

That's one way to read it, I guess? I thought the assumption was "the Stalker is helping something that's the same kind of thing he is". When Stalker shows up neither the Operator nor Ordis know anything about what he's up to or why he's here or what his feelings are or any camaraderie he might have. He shows us part of a Warframe, and if he's here about a Warframe he wouldn't be here about helping one of us because he's been hostile to the Tenno. So maybe it's another one of his kind?

Regarding Ordis follow-up line, isn't he talking about Jade? That there's probably not much of her mind left. And then the Operator tries and yeah, there's not much left.

[Raziel589]

12 hours ago, Sivos said:

Jade uses the Jade Light as the source of her powers.  Was she the one executing people, like Margulis?  If so, what if the baby has the souls of those who died by the Jade Light? 😂

Jade Light was a thing before Warframes.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is what we thought up until Second Dream. But it turns out, no, the ethereal swords that Excalibur shoots out aren't Void at all, they're tech.

Not sure how you got that impression given that the quest dialogue says no such thing.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is void based tech. The void is the core that allows them to do what they do, that was the case both prior to and after the tenno were a thing. 

 

12 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Not sure how you got that impression given that the quest dialogue says no such thing.

I guess the important distinction for me is this: take a look at Oberon. He has "magical" abilities such as vicious light that disintegrates his foes, one of which makes his foes float off the ground, another of which is basically a play on Magic Missile from DnD. And look at a Z-Kid with an Amp and the Naramon tree active, he also has "magical" abilities such as vicious light that disintegrates his foes, one of which makes his foes float off the ground, another of which is basically a play on Magic Missile from DnD

But only the Z-kid's version of all this deals +50% damage to Sentients. So even if Oberon is using the Void as a power source, his *powers* don't count as Void, just tech