Bad quest plot writing

[Boghadir]

I'm not sure if there's a punchline somewhere for how bad the writing is or why we needed a prego warframe that was the Stalkers wife but this is taking meme tier,  Bethesda lead writer Emil can't write, and running with something that doesn't even accomplish what it was supposed to do.  Instead of getting the Stalkers backstory, or why he even still follows Humhow, we find out he got saved in the old war by a warframe who turned out to be his wife.  Instead of being a loyal supersoldier, we get another case of Hurr Durr Orokin bad because... he's not allowed to have kids?  When Dax can?  This is following the trend of derailing the point of your mission space like with the New War turning into the Rebecca redemption arc instead of actually focusing on the war part.  I feel like there's no quality control when it comes to the writing in this game, nor is the team asking if we even need a prego frame that sits in another overfilled space of tactical niches.

The thing worse than comically bad Corpus commander dialog is choosing to make the mission more about Jade than the actual Stalker lore.  Even better, if the Tenno can power Warframes and heal them, why didn't the Stalker just bring her to them?  Does Vazarin dash not exist outside the vacuum DEdevs keep nerfing?  Or using Helminth who is actually integral to Warframe operation and creation?  Or what about Stalker and the spinning starwars blaster block when he can just... cloak and run past them all?  Couldn't Hunhow just produce some kind of archon shards, or sink the Corpus warship?  Like I already knew it was going to be bad when you put up the safe space mom warning, but this is just competing with pop culture.  

The only positive critique I have is the mission isn't long.  That's it.  Mission wise specifically, the hud settings went from my preference to really tiny off screen.  That's the only mechanical issue I noticed.

[RasserG]

100% agree with you.

[matt11mz]

1. The Orokin had a caste system. I can 100% see the idea that Low Guardians cannot mix with upper society, if that's what Jade was, or even just have stricter laws.

2. Helminth was my first thought too, but as for him not doing that at first, he was just too proud. Reaper's Lament outright states this.

3. Cloaking wouldn't work at the end because it was too narrow, and he was cut off. Just because the game ai is dumb with invisibility doesn't mean irl Corpus would be.

4. Hunhow isn't an archon, he doesn't have a shard. He's also a wreckage at the bottom of the sea. If he were able to shoot at stuff, he probably wouldn't be stuck down there.

[Boghadir]

16 minutes ago, matt11mz said:

1. The Orokin had a caste system. I can 100% see the idea that Low Guardians cannot mix with upper society, if that's what Jade was, or even just have stricter laws.

2. Helminth was my first thought too, but as for him not doing that at first, he was just too proud. Reaper's Lament outright states this.

3. Cloaking wouldn't work at the end because it was too narrow, and he was cut off. Just because the game ai is dumb with invisibility doesn't mean irl Corpus would be.

4. Hunhow isn't an archon, he doesn't have a shard. He's also a wreckage at the bottom of the sea. If he were able to shoot at stuff, he probably wouldn't be stuck down there.

1.  We have no idea what caste Stalker his.  He was a guard to the Emperors, which means he was likely above a Dax.  If he wasn't a Dax, he still probably could get away with it.

 

2.  That doesn't stop him from going to the Tenno, who should have taken him to their Helminth.  

 

3.  It literally works next to the juggernaut spamming shockwaves and corruption.

 

4.  He can affect matter and can be observed moving underwater.  His control unit is seperate of the wreckage.  

[40PE]

I think whoever wrote the story is a Star Wars Mandalorian crazed fan, that's all. Sorry if you didn't see it before and now reading this you can't unsee. :)

 

I was expecting some really deep and much longer dramatic story about stalker and why he is who he is. Guess I've expected too much, ohh well...

Edited June 18 by 40PE

[Boghadir]

 

43 minutes ago, 40PE said:

I think whoever wrote the story is a Star Wars Mandalorian crazed fan, that's all. Sorry if you didn't see it before and now reading this you can't unsee. :)

 

I was expecting some really deep and much longer dramatic story about stalker and why he is who he is. Guess I've expected too much, ohh well...

Filoni was always not a good writer but... this is something else.  It's like someone from the Fallout Frontier modding team landed a job at a company and this is the project we get.  

[dangerdragon117]

the problem with most warframe lore, is that everything exists inside of a vacuum. nothing relates to anything and nobody in universe acknowledges anything that happens. makes the universe feel very dead.

[Boghadir]

6 minutes ago, dangerdragon117 said:

the problem with most warframe lore, is that everything exists inside of a vacuum. nothing relates to anything and nobody in universe acknowledges anything that happens. makes the universe feel very dead.

It's a symptom of having an unfinished beta project filling in gaps and retroactively adding plot material on top of it.  Not only that but we've had a project lead change and our search for water in creative drought is leading us to Camp Lejeune.  

[Snowbluff]

4 hours ago, 40PE said:

I think whoever wrote the story is a Star Wars Mandalorian crazed fan, that's all. Sorry if you didn't see it before and now reading this you can't unsee. :)

I was getting Pedro Pascal vibes (not just a Mandalorian thing). Without any of the charisma of course. And a whole lot of other creepy implications from this quest.

[40PE]

What really bothers me about this is that they had to test it, try it out. Also they working on WF is 11 years old. As @Boghadir also pointed out precisely, feels like separate small thing unrelated to anything just makes it so we can have this new addition.

And what really bothers me and makes me sad that after eleven years they tested it, thought it through, alien it to Rebecca and who else and probably said when they gave it a green light: "Good enough"

:(

 

But the more I thing about it it's more 2/10 quality and goes down every day rather than up.

[Gaxxian]

Idk why DE are hiring underage as writers. Tbh this is the only explanation for this "script", i refuse to think that any adult would write so badly except trying hard.

[(XBOX)FEB777]

Also mechanically the pregnancy has nothing to do with jades kit! 

(Maybe the second aura slot) 

 

The design for jade seems split on one hand you have an Angel themed frame using Angel themed abilities like healing and condemning and flying and gazing down casting divine vengeance. And then you have the quest where she just lays around screams gives birth and then dies... And then we build her and she is now eternally pregnant and also totally fine? 

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Jade is just (the Angel frame) with pregnancy tacked on? If you wanted to make a mother frame I'm all for it but the kit should reflect the design and lore at least!

In this case it just seems like we had an ability kit and a theme and this new lore story and someone thought how about we just smash those two things together. It just gives off this weird feeling like something is just off.

[Thanatos9t]

On 2024-06-18 at 11:15 PM, Boghadir said:

1.  We have no idea what caste Stalker his.  He was a guard to the Emperors, which means he was likely above a Dax.  If he wasn't a Dax, he still probably could get away with it.

During the end of the quest you hear Sorren says that their relationship is against the Legums (Latin word for Laws) and if the Lords found out-

It cuts off but it's obvious it is a crime and they would be punished for it regardless of their caste or role, in this case the punishment seems to be being turned into Warframes against their will.

[matt11mz]

On 2024-06-19 at 6:15 PM, (XBOX)FEB777 said:

Also mechanically the pregnancy has nothing to do with jades kit! 

(Maybe the second aura slot) 

 

The design for jade seems split on one hand you have an Angel themed frame using Angel themed abilities like healing and condemning and flying and gazing down casting divine vengeance. And then you have the quest where she just lays around screams gives birth and then dies... And then we build her and she is now eternally pregnant and also totally fine? 

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Jade is just (the Angel frame) with pregnancy tacked on? If you wanted to make a mother frame I'm all for it but the kit should reflect the design and lore at least!

In this case it just seems like we had an ability kit and a theme and this new lore story and someone thought how about we just smash those two things together. It just gives off this weird feeling like something is just off.

Jade's theme is life and death. In design, angels can be associated with protection (guardian angel), and death (pop culture becoming an angel when you die). She is pregnant (brings life), and dies (enough said for that side of her theme). Her kit has support skills and healing/revives (life), and the power of the Jade Light (death).

[Solarsyphon]

The star war comparisons are funny to me because everyone seems to compare it to the new Disney star wars as if they are some kind of metric of bad writing but really the story has more in common with star wars episode 3.  Jade's death is very similar to Padme's.  The difference is basically that when Padme got sick Anakin chose to attack his enemy while when Jade got sick  the Stalker eventually asked for help although it was too late.   The stalker is basically dark side Anakin who refused to kill children.


Any way regarding your questions I think the story addresses them. 

Spoiler

 

Quote

he's not allowed to have kids?  When Dax can?

The stalker was not a Dax. We don't know all of the Orokin's rules but the ones specific to Dax obviously don't apply. 

 

Quote

if the Tenno can power Warframes and heal them, why didn't the Stalker just bring her to them? 

Hunhow tells him to go to the Tenno for help  and it is implied that he had been saying to do so for a long time. The stalker initially refuses out of stubbornness and is chastised for it.  The stalker tries the same technology that he's seen heal warframes before, The healing bioplasma stolen from the corpus is visually similar to the healing animation in game but it fails. He then reluctantly goes to the Tenno. 


 

Quote

Does Vazarin dash not exist outside the vacuum DEdevs keep nerfing?

 The Tenno do try to use their void powers to heal  Jade but fail.  That they didn't do the gamafied dash version isn't really relevant the operator would have a better grasp of how to use void powers to heal a warframe than any player would. 

 

Quote

Using Helminth who is actually integral to Warframe operation and creation?  

Again they attempt  using the infestation. Ordis and the Operator have better grasp of how to do that than any one outside of the universe would.

 

 

Quote

what about Stalker and the spinning starwars blaster block when he can just... cloak and run past them all? 

The use of a heavy machine gun was meant to represent suppressing fire. Invisibility wouldn't matter as the point of this kind of attack is to cover the entire area in bullets. 


 

Quote

Couldn't Hunhow just produce some kind of archon shards, or sink the Corpus warship?

He obviously couldn't.  He has never done either of those things.  He can create sentients, swords and bows. 

 

In terms of mechanics

On 2024-06-20 at 9:15 AM, (XBOX)FEB777 said:

Also mechanically the pregnancy has nothing to do with jades kit! 

(Maybe the second aura slot) 

 

The design for jade seems split on one hand you have an Angel themed frame using Angel themed abilities like healing and condemning and flying and gazing down casting divine vengeance. And then you have the quest where she just lays around screams gives birth and then dies... And then we build her and she is now eternally pregnant and also totally fine? 

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Jade is just (the Angel frame) with pregnancy tacked on? If you wanted to make a mother frame I'm all for it but the kit should reflect the design and lore at least!

In this case it just seems like we had an ability kit and a theme and this new lore story and someone thought how about we just smash those two things together. It just gives off this weird feeling like something is just off.

I think a pregnancy based kit would be rather crass and disgusting personally.  What could they possibly do, throw babies at people?  that would not fit the themes of Jade shadows at all and probably works better for something more horror based. 

The angel theme can be connected to pregnancy through the idea of  Mary the mother of Jesus.  Jade is an exalted mother the appearance of an angel that has a miraculous child before transcending to corporeal form. 

[Gaxxian]

hace 4 minutos, Solarsyphon dijo:

The star war comparisons are funny to me because everyone seems to compare it to the new Disney star wars as if they are some kind of metric of bad writing but really the story has more in common with star wars episode 3.  Jade's death is very similar to Padme's.  The difference is basically that when Padme got sick Anakin chose to attack his enemy while when Jade got sick  the Stalker eventually asked for help although it was too late.   The stalker is basically dark side Anakin who refused to kill children.

Thats why those films are pretty much disliked by a lot of fans too xD

[Solarsyphon]

19 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Thats why those films are pretty much disliked by a lot of fans too xD

That's fair. I just always laugh when people complain about the new films being ruined by Disney or  some kind of agenda as if we didn't all suffer through the prequels. 

I personally think this writing is better than episode 3, I mainly just point out the comparison because they are so similar and people are acting like a story like this has never happened before. 

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2024-06-19 at 12:58 AM, dangerdragon117 said:

the problem with most warframe lore, is that everything exists inside of a vacuum. nothing relates to anything and nobody in universe acknowledges anything that happens. makes the universe feel very dead.

TBH I think a lot of the old story, mixed up and confused in places, was still a coherent story under the covers. It spread the story of Natah all the way to the Ropalolyst and got everything ready for the new war which was pretty much chapter 1. I'm sure they figured they'd write a long chapter 2 story when it was needed. But instead we got TWN that tried to end warframe and operator and introduce a new elden ring style game. That didn't work but they had no plan B for continuing the old warframe story we all got so caught up in we're still here.

this is the problem - warframe is running on past credit and isn't giving us anything like the old story. Its not sustainable, we can't keep getting a new warframe and a pretty rough story quest that serves only to sell us that new warframe and fashion pack. Something has gone very wrong and there seem no plan to fix it beyond short-term reasons for plat sales.

[CanOfCraig]

I don't want to pop out and say "Thing bad" But for what they were trying to convey with this quest - I have no idea what the expectation of reaction was. I feel like I got the spark notes, or a rough outline of a story that was missing major points that needed to be hit over actually experiencing a story.
 

Spoiler

My Only emotional connection to the stalker is that he's the person I need to slap through the floor because they locked the doors on me and gave me the thing I hate most in this world, a minor inconvenience.

That's what the stalker is to me through all my years of playing - A minor inconvenience.

The quest then adds two new characters who's only addition to the plot was showing up. 👍

With that the whole quest feels like fan fiction written for someone who already has some self imposed emotional connection to single character. and left out the whole part where it made me care about anything going on other than "If I do this quest I get access to event for shiny thing"

the story was rushed, Expects the player is invested in a side character, Added two additional side characters with no actual introduction or even a Leverian piece to flush out whats happening and why. and instead of saying it's piece just kind of says "Fill in the blanks I guess" with assumed motivations to things that are just kind of weird in a cringe way.

It's a swing and a miss for me - I hope that the story can move forward without too much of a focus on it. and I hope that the quest isn't made forced reading for future content.

[Oreades]

Jade made the classic miscalculation of dying in a cutscene, Red13's father and Aeris mad the same mistake smh

Speaking of cutscenes the cinematography was kinda weird too. Like when all the Corpus guards at the end inexplicably moved in the way just so they could get the effect of them stepping out of the way two seconds later.

 

 

[Perrierite]

8 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

TBH I think a lot of the old story, mixed up and confused in places, was still a coherent story under the covers. It spread the story of Natah all the way to the Ropalolyst and got everything ready for the new war which was pretty much chapter 1. I'm sure they figured they'd write a long chapter 2 story when it was needed. But instead we got TWN that tried to end warframe and operator and introduce a new elden ring style game. That didn't work but they had no plan B for continuing the old warframe story we all got so caught up in we're still here.

this is the problem - warframe is running on past credit and isn't giving us anything like the old story. Its not sustainable, we can't keep getting a new warframe and a pretty rough story quest that serves only to sell us that new warframe and fashion pack. Something has gone very wrong and there seem no plan to fix it beyond short-term reasons for plat sales.

I totally agree on Pre-TNW worldbuilding cohesion. The stories' progression were slow, but it had better buildup with events in-between too (those not returning and new players left in confusion is a different problem tho). Duviri not getting enough traction seemed to led them take conservative creative approach, reusing and expanding less touched subject (Stalker, Ordis Cephalon fragment, Dark Sector as 1999 maybe a little stretch). They admit they don't have long term plan so I expect they do "throw things to the wall and see if sticks" for a while.

It's just yet another old vets grumble so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm seeing a pattern. A character with little background appears and bursts out their lifelong trauma with little buildup, players experience their intense  emotion with musical number or orchestra playing in background so that sound team does the magic. I think DE prefers utilizing shock value to move people over polishing predictable story to achieve excellent execution (maybe due to their Dev resources limitation?). It feels like emotional story for the sake of being emotional. They also seemed to take "show not tell" too literally.

I now play quests for new lore tidbits but DE tend to retcon or pulling eternalism so that's not fun as it used to be either :(.

[Voltage]

I'm just disappointed as someone who's always been waiting for more Stalker lore. This quest feels pre-Second Dream in terms of both quality and impact, and that quest was released 9 years ago. There also wasn't any memorable music either. The way the Corpus just stopped shooting was dumb, and Stalker didn't make any sort of "last stand". It would've been more impactful if Stalker was rescued by the Tenno in a Railjack with a badass Cephalon Cy line.

[Hexwater]

On 2024-06-22 at 9:38 AM, Solarsyphon said:

I think a pregnancy based kit would be rather crass and disgusting personally.  What could they possibly do, throw babies at people?

Honestly?
After giving birth minigame I'm putting what youve said on my bingo card, fully expecting some frame in the future with kit closely resembling it - if you ask enough lore questions.

I've never seen a game with such minigame before in my life. I never expected something like that to be implemented in Warframe of all games; a game about magical space ninja child.

On 2024-06-20 at 1:15 AM, (XBOX)FEB777 said:

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Jade is just (the Angel frame) with pregnancy tacked on? If you wanted to make a mother frame I'm all for it but the kit should reflect the design and lore at least!

Not only you. I've been waiting for an angelic theme warframe since I started playing +/- 8 years ago. 

Jade is so perfect. The kit, the visuals, the sound effects....

...but that perma-preg belly is off-putting design and lore wise.

Also its a reminder of giving birth minigame I keep bringing up. I don't do it for no reason - it's weird. Like I said, Ive never seen something so tactless before, and like I said in other threads; it makes the fetish accusation stick even harder. 

I bet if that minigame wasnt there people wouldnt be so bothered by the whole thing. It would be just weird to see perma-preg frame around, but less so. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:09 PM by Hexwater

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

On 2024-06-22 at 8:53 PM, CanOfCraig said:

It's a swing and a miss for me - I hope that the story can move forward without too much of a focus on it. and I hope that the quest isn't made forced reading for future content.

An interesting point - given DE saw fit to put a content warning before starting the quest. Either they believe it's justified as a warning (in which case they shouldn't lock out future, unrelated, content) or they don't (in which case it's just hypocrisy). 

[quxier]

On 2024-06-19 at 12:15 AM, Boghadir said:

3.  It literally works next to the juggernaut spamming shockwaves and corruption.

My Jaggy was well behaved. It roam slowly around while I was shooting him.

Joking around, I think they have fixed this so Jaggy is more lively.

However:

On 2024-06-18 at 11:56 PM, matt11mz said:

3. Cloaking wouldn't work at the end because it was too narrow, and he was cut off. Just because the game ai is dumb with invisibility doesn't mean irl Corpus would be.

I feel like those "higher level corpus" would be more than capable to disrupt invisibility, at least for some time. I wish we seen something like "Stalker tries cloaking, it turns off" but nah. It's still make more sense if you think that Corpses are smarter in real life.