Misgendering and the use of a pronouns tag of some sort

[Rosariaa]

I am a transgender player and I'm tired of the pain that hits every time someone calls me "bro" or something similar. In the spirit of pride and an inclusive player base, I was wondering if it would be possible to add some sort of pronouns tag to our usernames that would show people, obviously, what our preferred pronouns were? Of course, in the interest of safety and comfort I would want it to be completely option to use for those that either don't care or don't want to for whatever reason don't have to, but everyone that *does* want to have them, have a variety of options? Like the basic she/her, he/him, they/them, but also have the less common options in the category of neopronouns? I know this would be a whole thing but it would be really nice to add this icing on the cake of a great game and community, as it were.

[Circle_of_Psi]

I don't think we need to open this can of worms, it's only going to cause more issues, if you really can't handle being called "Bro" or "Dude" (Pal/Burh/Mate are some better examples) over the net, then perhaps gaming isn't for you?

I call everyone Bud or Pal, regardless of their Gender, it's nothing against their gender, just Slang that people use every single day, I don't know how long you've been on the entire net or for this matter a Gamer, it's something that you'll see daily, each time you game, regardless what game

Edited Monday at 07:49 PM by Circle_of_Psi
Spelling

[Traumtulpe]

Just out of curiosity, telling people that you're not a "bro" after the fact is not an option? Because that's what women generally do when people assume their gender, from what I've observed. The women who like to get attention anyways.

[Hobie-wan]

Honestly, that will probably just make trolls be more trollish. They'll pull more of the nonsense that goes on daily about a certain frame.

If it was listed on people's names every time in chat, that will get annoying quickly. If it is in a profile, most normal people won't even check beyond whether an in game name sounds male or female and many will default to "dude" which is becoming increasingly gender non-specific and I suppose "bro" might be a little as well (I don't use bro at all). Sucks for ladies of that most of these general terms for people usually start as male, but there's quite a ways to go for things to get better on that front.

 

[(PSN)BAM-BAM-73]

Slightly off topic but I see more and more girls calling each other dude now.  

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay, OP, look... would it be nice to have identifiers online? Yeah, sure.

Is it really a problem to be called what are generally accepted to be gender-non-specific terms when speaking (like 'dude' and 'bro', because they're used freely by all genders to all genders in modern culture), and do you even need to correct them?

I would venture that, when it comes down to it, even if we had the identifiers, the language would still persist because of that.

I would further venture that somebody that has affirmed their identity as you have, would then not really need the affirmations of randoms on a game or the internet. You are you, and that's exactly who you will always be, and who you'll become every second of your life from now on.

So... You don't need me (a full ally), or anyone else (like dingleberry McSnortsMAGA that was commenting earlier), to change, because we won't ever change you.

A couple of 'bro's won't hurt without the identifier, just as they won't hurt with it.

Support the idea of having the personal identifiers, but I don't think any of us actually need them.

[Agall]

1 hour ago, Rosariaa said:

I am a transgender player and I'm tired of the pain that hits every time someone calls me "bro" or something similar.

Both 'bro' and 'dude' are gender neutral terms to a lot of people, maybe even cultural to them.

1 hour ago, Rosariaa said:

I know this would be a whole thing but it would be really nice to add this icing on the cake of a great game and community, as it were.

The trick to this is to just not use pronouns. Pronouns simply aren't required in the English language, more of a convenient way to indirectly address someone.

[Agall]

42 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, OP, look... would it be nice to have identifiers online? Yeah, sure.

I identify as an Excalibur main, so everyone needs to use my pronoun of 'Best Warframe' instead.

[LordDragoonis]

Do note if you do put in pronouns in you name or as a title, it will not reduce the amount of hassles or issues you will encounter. by having such decisive thing will make you more of a target. It like putting "trump Supporter" or "nazi in you name tag, if you have issues with other players words you are free to ignore and black list them. Do also note that there are players who have english as second language and you trying to force them into using self declared pronouns will be confusing to them

PS most players dont care about what gender another player is, so if someone says male pronouns then state your female/woman player if it bothers you (or nothing at all) its not like they can confirm it themselves

Edited Monday at 09:51 PM by LordDragoonis

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 minutes ago, Agall said:

I identify as an Excalibur main, so everyone needs to use my pronoun of 'Best Warframe' instead.

That's such a shame, I'm a Zephyr main, so I've already claimed 'Best Warframe' as my title.

[Agall]

Just now, Birdframe_Prime said:

That's such a shame, I'm a Zephyr main, so I've already claimed 'Best Warframe' as my title.

What's to say we can't have the same pronoun even though we aren't the same Warframe?

[LittleLeoniePrime]

3 hours ago, Rosariaa said:

I am a transgender player and I'm tired of the pain that hits every time someone calls me "bro" or something similar.

glad to know I'm not alone ;w;

wish people would just care for and respect each other for once but apparently this community ain't so great after all...

Edited Monday at 11:01 PM by LittleLeoniePrime

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I am not personally opposed, it could be nice. 

It could potentially also be quite complicated as well, on multiple levels. Like a lot of social media websites have more options around pronouns and personal info, but... certain online transactions and interactions tend to actually shy away from too much personalisation, details, and so on, for a host of reasons, like security. On one website, your name, age, gender, preferred pronoun, occupation, study, uni, etc sexual orientation, country, city, are fine, and standard, but elsewhere, options for such info doesn't exist, because people don't want the random people they play online with, to have access to that information, and even if some of them do, the default and smart practice is to block/filter such info by default. Its up to the person themselves to vocalise or express such info if they so chose. 

Having the option and discretion could be nice, especially if its really important for a person, and maybe in the near or distant future, such options may be available, but many places are also going throw growing pains, around knowledge, education, understanding, tolerance, acceptance, around LGBQT+ minorities, trans people not exclusively, but in particular (again though, may depend on the country, region, state or city an individual exists in). Like I believe (I am not certain, I would have to check) there are some places where Warframe can be played, but the legality and laws around being gay, being transgender are questionable/outdated. Also see the Firecracker like replies some people will give in this very thread. Silly, hollow accusations, but the state of some countries...

Also to be super clear, in case it seems like I am just looking for excuses to not implement such ideas, thats really not my intent, but its the kind of thing that DE should probably have to consider and weigh up, since they will have to be the ones to have to deal with unforeseen consequences and issues. There are also work arounds, like... what if you only enabled that choice/option in certain countries... Well then that sort of becomes a talking point as well... 

There are other layers of complication as well. This is mostly anecdotal, and not to suggest that everyones experiences should match mine or that mine are universal or representative of anything larger. I'm the kind of person where most of my offline and online friends are woman. Not really sure how or why, but yeah. A sort of pattern a lot of us notice, is that and again, such things can be complicated, and vary, but amongst the CIS woman, well, not many of them chose usernames that signalled they were woman or girls. A lot (but not all) of them wanted the anonymity, of people online not knowing or caring. Its not that they aren't or weren't proud or okay with being girls/woman, they just preferred the discretion, and to also avoid creepy advances, DM's, PM's that they had grown use to. So most had silly, goofy, awesome gender neutral names. Rad Donkey, Sick Rodent. ThaBeastKilla, VelvetBadDragon, Bzzzzzz93, BLAH300. It was usually a bit different with trans friends (specifically woman), because for a lot of them, online spaces were actually some of the safer places they could feel their actual gender, and feel somewhat liberated from the pressures and dangers of offline reality, so online spaces were a place where they could embrace their femininity. It felt nice they could use a name to express a gender that felt more real and sincere to them.

It can start to get tricky though because well such things can be tricky. Like can you be trans without dysphoria? Rhetorical question, to be clear, but to lead on, how do websites accomodate peoples possible dysphoria, and is that different from accomodating trans people? Is that different from accomodating CIS people? then you loop back around and insert the security issues and concerns. 

Then there is also another subjective element involving culture, language and in groups, out groups. My post is already pretty long though so I won't go into that. 

My general main point is... well. Like are you talking about revamping the UI, or just something on your profile? People will still probably misgender you (including unintentionally, through communication misunderstandings etc, passively). On the first website I ever used, I was constantly misgendered for like 5 years. Mistakenly I mean. Fortunately I didn't have dysphoria or anything, but yeah. How does DE tackle the safety and security issues. Like hypothetically a teenager in a country accidentally incriminated themselves unintentionally. Will there be an increase in reports around people being weird in unsolicited messages, for the Support Desk. It might be easier and more convenient for DE to just carry on as usual. Encouraging people to be who they are, if they want to vocalise it to others, even to correct it, if people get it wrong, misgender etc 

I am no psychic though, so for all I know, this might be changed next week, and if so, its nothing I would take issue with. 

[(PSN)CUInc]

I respect your ideals, choices, and everything else. But there are just sometimes you just have to let go and not give a damn about what other people say. These randos in your squad are people you probably won’t ever meet again in your life, so it’s probably better just to move on. That’s just my suggestion.

[Hobie-wan]

6 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

wish people would just care for and respect each other for once but apparently this community ain't so great after all...

Unfortunately, any sufficiently large pool of people will eventually have turds floating in it. You just have to do your best to not be one, stay away from them, and alert maintenance to flush them when possible.

[PollexMessier]

Or

You could grow a layer of skin and realize that dude/bro have been used gender neutrally for several decades at this point. And understand that literally not one single person that calls you by male pronouns in a game without knowing that detail about you is doing it on purpose.

I default to saying he/him even if the person I'm referring to is very obviously a girl and I know them well sometimes. It just slips, it's not like I mean anything by it. And I frequently get referred to with female terms despite being a guy because of my long hair. I don't care, because it's a pointless thing to get bent out of shape over.

[Oggyswe]

Im gonna butt in here and also out myself since that makes what i say mean more for some reason. As both a founder and someone whos transgender. Warframe shouldent add that nor really do pride or such imo its a game set in the future about murderous flesh mashines and clone armies and everything else.

 

We are in a diffrent universe and unless you play with friends the people you meet are as fleeting as the wind so putting care in small language usage is kinda irrelevant since you will never meet them again and they will never meet you again.

 

And we arent playing warframe to affirm eachother nor to talk about transgender issues we play it to kill grineer and get loot and be as stylish while doing it. So i would not want to see pronouns be added in to it nor other things. Im glad stuff like pride or forth of july and such holidays are just color packs and glyphs. 

 

We are in the warframe universe not our own so we shouldent bring our own to it.

[L3512]

So what are you going to do when someone purposefully, accidentally or ignorantly misgenders you if this was a feature?

Report them?

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Anyone planning to ask the OP what they mean when they say being called "bro" causes "pain to hit" instead of just assuming things and deciding "bro" is OK because it's gender-neutral? Anyone? Any takers?

Good work team.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, L3512 said:

So what are you going to do when someone purposefully, accidentally or ignorantly misgenders you if this was a feature?

Report them?

This will only cause a massive amount of false reporting me thinks

Edited Tuesday at 11:03 AM by Circle_of_Psi

[L3512]

1 hour ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

This will only cause a massive amount of false reporting me thinks

It's a can of worms DE doesn't need to open.

[Circle_of_Psi]

10 minutes ago, L3512 said:

It's a can of worms DE doesn't need to open.

Indeed

[RLanzinger]

To @(PSN)FrDiabloFr : "what i don’t agree with is forcing it onto others, once you start forcing things onto others that has real repercussions it becomes dangerous."

Dear Diablo, to acknowledged is not to force. Let's not mix the good and the spoiled ones :

First, Biologically speaking there is two distinct human gender (male or female) and a third indistinct one intersex that regroup all of peculiars cases n' genetics anomalies.

Second, There is the Psychiatry* aspect that is very complex and make the problem PhD levels. As for regular people like us when you speak to a sociopath, a person with Trisomy X or 21 or even a depressed person, you just need to be a bit comprehensive.

Third, If someone want to be a Princess, an alien or a space saucer, they may have others Psychiatry issues or a just abusing like most Munchausen by Internet. I've spend most my childhood in hospital praying to be able to live another year... You don't shoot out your trauma on people unless to be push onto the edge like @Rosariaa is feeling.

 

@Circle_of_Psi : "This will only cause a massive amount of false reporting me thinks "

So we do like FB or X, we play the 🙈 🙉 🙊 until the moment some young ones get so distress and do something stupid like suicide ? MARVELLOUS IDEA 🤨

 

I'd conclude with this :

1. Just because some Munchausen-morons abuse others people, does not mean you have to IGNORE a person distress / trauma...
2. It's as stupid as asking to remove Priority line for pregnant women just because some fatty are cheating to be pregnant.
3. What is dangerous IS to ignore a problem for all because false alarms of a few. It's a biais respond on Aesop's Fable : "Boy Who Cried Wolf"

 

(*) : Psychiatrist for is a Doctor with PhD in Medicine; a Psychologist or a clinical psychologist IS NOT a Doctor. So I won't use "psychology" terms here... as I am a professional of mental health care to be able to draw a line between these two.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

1 minute ago, RLanzinger said:

First, Biologically speaking there is two distinct human gender (male or female) and a third indistinct one intersex that regroup all of peculiars cases n' genetics anomalies.

Second, There is the Psychiatry* aspect that is very complex and make the problem PhD levels. As for regular people like us when you speak to a sociopath, a person with Trisomy X or 21 or even a depressed person, you just need to be a bit comprehensive.

Third, If someone want to be a Princess, an alien or a space saucer, they may have others Psychiatry issues or a just abusing like most Munchausen by Internet. I've spend most my childhood in hospital praying to be able to live another year...

There’s no talking to you, you always have to twist or try and take some kind of moral high ground, you clearly missed or as you usually do dismissed what i said you are a lost cause.

[Agall]

15 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

glad to know I'm not alone ;w;

wish people would just care for and respect each other for once but apparently this community ain't so great after all...

There's information that people simply don't need to know about you IRL. Outside of communities that focus on such aspects, the randoms in Public matches or even the forums don't need to know nor should care to know.

This is also an international game whose studio is owned by a Chinese company. DE clearly likes to push the envelope though, given the WitW's not so subtle but not directly stated more than friendly relationship between Loid and Albrecht.