Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[PublikDomain]

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Ammo doesnt matter?

Correct. You can have an infinitely long magazine and it won't matter if the gun is unable to do anything with all that ammo.

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

So lets make soma prime with magazine capacity of 200 and insane fire rate do as much dmg with single bullet as Prisma Lenz that has 5.

And that's why I talk about TTK. Because as long as the Lenz and Soma have similar TTKs, the actual numbers don't matter. You've somehow taken that to mean "let's give 1 bullet from the Soma the same damage as 1 arrow from the Lenz" which is just stupid. It's a stupid suggestion. Wow it's dumb. No, friend, you'd set the Soma Prime's DPS to be about as much as the Prisma Lenz. And that DPS is derived from damage multiplied by fire rate (by multishot by crit by etc.). So if the Soma Prime has a high fire rate, you give it a low individual bullet damage. Duh. If the Lenz has a low fire rate you give it a big individual AoE damage. Duh. And with a consistent DPS you could easily scale enemies to produce a consistent TTK.

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Prime frames you still have to farm up.

💸💸💸

Progression you can just buy is a pretty pathetic progression.

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

For you its just numbers.

Well, sort of. For me the numbers are meaningless. They do nothing but obscure and degrade entire swathes of the game's actual mechanics and intricacies and gameplay, and they make the "progression" y'all go on about entirely pointless. Turn off damage numbers and you can't even tell they're there. Poof, all your "progression" gone in an instant.

It's you guys peeing your pants when I suggest that maybe these numbers could be changed. "muh progression", "muh fantasy", etc. Your numbers are boring and they don't matter. You're so terrified of losing your numbers yet they don't do anything anyways.

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

DE understands there is more to the game than just fancy numbers and they make subpar weapons even now.

And so those weapons don't get used. You don't progress to them, you don't collect them, you don't spend money on them, at most you'll level them up to 30 and then throw them away. Wow such variety.

Edited August 24 by PublikDomain

[MrInubis]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And that's why I talk about TTK. Because as long as the Lenz and Soma have similar TTKs, the actual numbers don't matter. You've somehow taken that to mean "let's give 1 bullet from the Soma the same damage as 1 arrow from the Lenz" which is just stupid. It's a stupid suggestion. Wow it's dumb. No, friend, you'd set the Soma Prime's DPS to be about as much as the Prisma Lenz. And that DPS is derived from damage multiplied by fire rate (by multishot by crit by etc.). So if the Soma Prime has a high fire rate, you give it a low individual bullet damage. Duh. If the Lenz has a low fire rate you give it a big individual AoE damage. Duh.

What TTK are you talking about when soma is single target and Lenz is AOE? Even if soma will kill target in single bullet Lenza kills 10 in single bullet. Than you factor in grouping abilities, multishot etc. TTK stat is stupid and not aplicable in many cases.

 

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And so those weapons don't get used. You don't progress to them, you don't collect them, you don't spend money on them, at most you'll level them up to 30 and then throw them away. Wow such variety.

Funny, i have them becasue thats the entire point of this game, to get everything.

Edited August 24 by kuciol

[Scor-Chii]

On 2024-08-02 at 4:00 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Because this suggestion is a Lazy excuse to create difficulty.

I'm all for making my own scenarios, but it's better if I invite effort and critical thinking rather than "duuuh play with one eye closed".

For example, If I go around with an unmodded MK1 Braton, trying to make a challenging gameplay. I'm a complete Idiot.

but If I take Braton Prime (without incarnon) and maximized it. it's a lot better and more rewarding.

 

because when the former obviously fails you're just left there thinking "what was I even thinking??"

but if the latter fails "this weapon might not work, but let me try a different build/approach/strategy"

As someone who LOVED Braton Prime WAY BEFORE it got an incarnon form AND made it work in SP, I 100% agree with your sentiment.

Intentionally playing the game incorrectly is not "difficulty" it's just you purposefully handicapping yourself.

Regardless, I never played Warframe because of the challenge aspect. I adore Steel Path and the growth it gave me into understanding my options and builds. But the main reason I've loved this game for the past 9 years was because of the casual power fantasy, spending 5 hours in a survival or disruption with the boys talking about random stuff like you're in a podcast while blasting fools like there's no tomorrow has been extremely therapeutic for me. Even when I play the game solo which is like 70% of the time I still have a blast because I have so much fun with all my finely tuned builds and equipment options.

If you want more engaging "difficulty" then just invest resources into off meta stuff and play steel path (if you're me, then preferably solo). This game is so powercrept that you can run almost anything and make it viable with enough mods, forma investment, and synergy knowledge (I.E. pairing a weapon and it's mods with arcanes, warframes, operator focus trees, etc) so there's no reason to stick with ONLY the current meta. The modding system as a whole is just a billion times more engaging when you actually know how to use it instead of just copy pasting a youtuber's build (or void forbid OVERFRAME) without actually knowing what these mods actually do on their own.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

What TTK are you talking about when soma is single target and Lenz is AOE? Even if soma will kill target in single bullet Lenza kills 10 is single bullet. Than you factor in grouping abilities, multishot etc. TTK stat is stupid and not aplicable in many cases.

Well you get a stopwatch and you start it and then you kill some enemies and then you stop the stopwatch when you kill the last one. And then you divide the enemies by the time. That's the TTK I'm talking about. See, the AoE component gets averaged right in there with every other factor. It can be accounted for.

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Funny, i have them becasue thats the entire point of this game, to get everything.

Buddy you know we can just look at your profile right?

Perigale:

Leveled and ignored.

Gorgon Wraith:

Leveled and ignored.

Buzlok:

Leveled and ignored.

Prisma Lenz:

Leveled and ignored.

You might have these items but you sure ain't using them. You do the same S#&$ we all do. You're not saint. You get an item, siphon out its Mastery, and toss it in the pile with the rest. And there are a ton of weapons in there you don't have that don't even have a barrier to acquisition. You've never used the base Bronco and it's a market credit BP. And yet you're apparently in no rush to "progress" to this weapon or even collect it. Maybe if the Bronco weren't garbage compared to what you already have you'd have more of an incentive to open up the market for it?

We can see your actual "progression" too. It's, well, this:

1M total kills on your profile and 1/8th of them are from these same four weapons alone. Half of that from the Ignis, just click and hold. And yet I'm the one that wants to make the game "bland" smh.

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, 4thBro a dit :

You are a simple/casual player. You are, most likely, not typically very good at video games. Maybe average, maybe a little below average. (And this is fine. They are just games, after all. I don't even like the term "casual" here, because we are ALL casual gamers.

The simple fact that i'm a grand master in some popular competitive games and I that I did a fair amount of final board of live tournament debunk your whole shallow argument once more. How are you going to call fallacies on this one I wonder. But you are going to call it nonetheless, that's how your broken brain works.

There is at least 10 pages where I prove with your own quote that you lie, say non sense, and can't contribute to the topic, and yet, every single time, you ran away acting like it never happened. I can't make it up, it's right there. Only you can't see it.

You wonder why i'm on the good and you are on the wrong side ? Well, I can enjoy the game and its endgame content ; you can't and want to change it. Why ? Because you are frustrated the world doesn't revolve around your selfish needs.

Try to debunk that with another shallow post that no one will bother to read.

See a therapist, they do a good job, and they will explain you what's your problem, better than me. Sadly, you won't ever accept it. Because the world is wrong and only you are right.

 

[Loza03]

36 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Well you get a stopwatch and you start it and then you kill some enemies and then you stop the stopwatch when you kill the last one. And then you divide the enemies by the time. That's the TTK I'm talking about. See, the AoE component gets averaged right in there with every other factor. It can be accounted for.

I think this is a perspective that very much could lead to homogenous weapons.

If every weapon is as good as each other in every situation, then that affects buildcraft and player expression more. The choice does still need to be meaningful, after all.

 

A good way to address this is to diversify the situations. Which is something DE is already leaning into a little with the Murmur. Different Murmur units are very meaningfully different from one another. Or at least the ones that aren't the bottom three, the minor Necramechs and the crawlers.

 

The lumbering fragment serves a position like a Heavy Gunner as a heavy unit, the Anatomiser is kind of like the Hellion except it makes you look up way more often, the Severed Warden is a support unit and a high-priority target, the Hollow Vein forces the player to move and dodge its attacks which go after their abilities, not their health. And of course, the big boy Necramechs are mini-bosses that the player has to go out of their way to avoid, distracting from the objective - or deal with the consequences of a super-heavy unit that deals high damage and can disrupt the player's movement.

In turn, ideally, different weapons should be better in different situations - thereby making the player's choice of weapon more meaningful. Bring a sniper rifle? You should be great at taking out heavy units, but struggle against the hordes of weaklings. And vice versa for a flamethrower.

This also helps support co-operation. Players will naturally prefer to engage targets that suit their build. Ideally, this leads to co-operation as players cover each others weaknesses.

I mean I play Team Fortress 2, so I know how many air quotes that 'Ideally' has but it's better than right now at least.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, Loza03 a dit :

Even if 4thbro is a Perverse Narcissist , which is frankly a pretty serious accusation, what does engaging him in what is just as if not more of an inflammatory fashion actually do if not give him more attention? The same advice of 'stop giving them attention' applies in the reverse just as much.

Being a perverse narcissist is nothing pejoratory. There is nothing wrong with that per se. It's not a condition, it cannot be 'healed'. Exactly like autism. It's just the way his brain is wired. Those two can live just fine in society, if only they don't meet, because the first are the predatory of the second. It's just nature. Now, we are talking about one player, MR16, that never played any of the many Warframe's endgame, and yet claim the game is too easy and that it needs an endgame, without being able to give us any constructive idea or feedback. I won't let him dictate what Warframe should be about ; like you don't let a tired five year old choose at what time to go to bed. He just doesn't know. And when telling him he doesn't know, he spirales out of control in 'fallacies' and 'strawmaning'. That's his defense mecanism. Logic can't reach him, even written black on white.

[PublikDomain]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I think this is a perspective that very much could lead to homogenous weapons.

If every weapon is as good as each other in every situation, then that affects buildcraft and player expression more. The choice does still need to be meaningful, after all.

Well, I dunno.

Let's say there's Weapon A that can kill 100 enemies per minute, Weapon B that can kill 75 enemies per minute, Weapon C that can kill 50 enemies per minute, and Weapon D that can kill 10 enemies per minute. That minute covers all the little meta properties like AoE and punchthrough and accuracy and ammo economy and how often you reload and how much you move. In this scenario, what are you picking? Being able to handle 10x fewer enemies is a pretty impactful thing, let alone half! So I will wager that you'll see most people pick A or sometimes B, a few people picking C, and barely anyone picking D. Here player buildcraft and expression is mostly centered on the two weapons who are hand over fist better than all the rest.

Now let's say there's Weapon E that can kill 100 enemies per minute, Weapon F that can kill 95 enemies per minute, Weapon G that can kill 80 enemies per minute, and Weapon H that can kill 75 enemies per minute. In this scenario what are you picking? There's still the incentive to pick Weapon E because it's objectively the strongest, but even if someone picks the weakest Weapon H they're still capable of keeping up. Here player buildcraft and expression is going to be centered on more of these weapons.

So if maximizing expression and buildcraft is the goal to strive for, then expression and buildcraft shouldn't be stifled or held back by raw performance. Having a large difference in raw performance can only lead to things not making it past that minimum threshold.

As for homogenization, well, as far as raw performance that's kinda the goal. Raw power should be homogenized. But we've got a huge number of weapons to look at which are already anything but homogeneous when you look at every other aspect, like their look and feel and gameplay and mechanics. Even if the Lato can kill about as many enemies as the Lex over a long period of time, they're still different guns.

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

In turn, ideally, different weapons should be better in different situations - thereby making the player's choice of weapon more meaningful. Bring a sniper rifle? You should be great at taking out heavy units, but struggle against the hordes of weaklings. And vice versa for a flamethrower.

Well yeah, and that's fine. If you zoom in really close there are going to be differences in the second-to-second gameplay and that's fine. But if you zoom allllll the way out and look at players over a long period of time, the guy with the sniper rifle and the secondary shotgun should still be able to keep up with the flamethrower and rocket pistol guy. Maybe Sniper struggles with hordes, that's OK because they breezed through the heavies. And Flamethrower has the hordes cleared, but spends more time on heavies. It'll average out in the long run.

But if the numbers are too skewed and the flamethrower is great against hordes and also great against heavies and also great against bosses and also great against etc. etc. etc., then why ever pick the sniper?

Which is kinda where we are in Warframe today. "Why pick a sniper" was previously only really answered with "for Eidolon Hunts", but even that's been eroded heavily by powercreep. I don't have updated graphs for recent years, but for example from 2020-2021:

You can also see just how little even back then players were expressing themselves with snipers. And it was trailing off! And it's continued since.

• 2020: Rubico Prime is the 4th most used weapon (5.35%)
• 2021: Rubico Prime is the 5th most used weapon (4.15%)
• 2022: Rubico Prime is the 8th most used primary (3.25%)
• 2023: Rubico Prime is the 11th most used primary (2.16%)

It doesn't have a role anymore and falls behind in every other aspect, so it's not being used as much. People are replacing it with more flexible options that do more in less time with less effort.

SARs were even more depressing:

As a whole category I don't think they were even 1% of total usage that year. Is anyone expressing themselves with SARs? Can they?

[Scor-Chii]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well you get a stopwatch and you start it and then you kill some enemies and then you stop the stopwatch when you kill the last one. And then you divide the enemies by the time. That's the TTK I'm talking about. See, the AoE component gets averaged right in there with every other factor. It can be accounted for.

Buddy you know we can just look at your profile right?

Perigale:

Leveled and ignored.

Gorgon Wraith:

Leveled and ignored.

Buzlok:

Leveled and ignored.

Prisma Lenz:

Leveled and ignored.

You might have these items but you sure ain't using them. You do the same S#&$ we all do. You're not saint. You get an item, siphon out its Mastery, and toss it in the pile with the rest. And there are a ton of weapons in there you don't have that don't even have a barrier to acquisition. You've never used the base Bronco and it's a market credit BP. And yet you're apparently in no rush to "progress" to this weapon or even collect it. Maybe if the Bronco weren't garbage compared to what you already have you'd have more of an incentive to open up the market for it?

We can see your actual "progression" too. It's, well, this:

1M total kills on your profile and 1/8th of them are from these same four weapons alone. Half of that from the Ignis, just click and hold. And yet I'm the one that wants to make the game "bland" smh.

Bro got EXPOSED hard.
This post on this thread made my night and I just wanna say thanks lol.

Seriously though has this guy 100%'d SP AT LEAST????

Ignis Wraith is kinda mid in SP compared to the normal difficulty which leads me to believe they didn't. Like the IG isn't bad but even as a primer weapon it feels like it falls off in SP compared to like any kind of other option like a hound/sentinel with Contagious Bond & Manifold Bond or like the Cedo or Kompressa.

Edited August 25 by Scor-Chii

[4thBro]

I still think Marked for Death shouldn't be capped by the unit's current HP value. Especially if it's adhering to LOS requirements anyway.

[LRonHoover]

I keep seeing Embers running into walls lately.

[4thBro]

Hey, you don't have to be watchin' them.

[Quest]

This thread is way better than the other one

[4thBro]

 

Especially now.

 

(Don't check post times to see how ready that image was.)

Edited August 25 by 4thBro

[Ventura_Highway]

Think we need a freshwater frame. Can't drink that Corrosive Barrage without my stomach getting a Tentacle Swarm

[TeaHands]

2 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Think we need a freshwater frame. Can't drink that Corrosive Barrage without my stomach getting a Tentacle Swarm

Fisherman Frame when?

Please DE, make an Exalted Fishing Spear.

[Liberator_Numen]

I disagree, sex appeal is just a distraction. What really holds this game back are the many pieces of content that have sat collecting dust, with no changes in sight.

[Ventura_Highway]

3 minutes ago, TeaHands said:

Fisherman Frame when?

Please DE, make an Exalted Fishing Spear.

Yes, and a Syndicates love me Grineer fear me hat.

[Pakaku]

25 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Think we need a freshwater frame. Can't drink that Corrosive Barrage without my stomach getting a Tentacle Swarm

I’m vouching for a beachy Dog Days warframe

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, traybong111 said:

I am just one pepega in a playerbase with no taste.

Warframe already has so little space for non-AoE weapons, and in that tiny speck of a corner there's very little to incentivize DMRs over snipers except access to some QoL mods like Tactical Reload. For precision-focused content and playstyle snipers come out on top in overwhelming majority of the time, PvE or PvP. I appreciate the concept of Incarnons but it still saddens me greatly that tacking on big AoE seems to be the only way for DE to give these weapons relevancy in lategame.

I respect.

I have a Prisma Grinlok build I really like but I'm still on my several-year LMG kick. And yeah, sad that "just make it AoE" is often DE's answer to Incarnons. It was for my poor Gorgon and it's such a dumpy un-dakka mode. The base stat buffs more than make up for it but still.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

What about mk1 player base usage @PublikDomain ? Should they clear endgame content ?

Sure. Should you be topping the charts, best in class, kill-everything-before-anyone-else-can-play? Nah. But you should still be, idk, half as powerful as someone who is. The game lets me put a potato and all the Forma I want and an Arcane and an Incarnon and a Riven on my MK1 Paris, after all. If I've put in endgame work why shouldn't I get to use it in endgame content?

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

What about normal weapons ? Are they supposed to be played in endgame ?

Sure. Should you be topping the charts, best in class, kill-everything-before-anyone-else-can-play? Nah. But you should still be, idk, 3/4 as powerful as someone who is. The game lets me put a potato and all the Forma I want and an Arcane and an Incarnon and a Riven on my Paris, after all. If I've put in endgame work why shouldn't I get to use it in endgame content?

Etc.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Where is the problem with that progression system we which we all played through just fine ?

The problem with the idea of a """progression system""" you talk about (that doesn't actually exist) is that it's been 10 goddamned years and I still don't have a #*!%ing Paracyst variant. Your """progression system""" is slow, wasteful, and encourages a bland gameplay experience. It does nothing. It adds nothing. It can be straight up bought. And it lasts for barely a percent of the time that people put into this game. All it does is make some people's favorite things suck but not others.

[PublikDomain]

Skirtless Yareli can't hurt you.

Skirtless Yareli:

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Skirtless Yareli can't hurt you.

Skirtless Yareli:

That's cursed wtf lol

[Quest]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Skirtless Yareli can't hurt you.

Skirtless Yareli:

Wow that opticor vandal has a great color scheme! 👍

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, TeaHands said:

Please DE, make an Exalted Fishing Spear.

Wouldn't that just be Styanax's fourth?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Don't worry, next year we will finally get Dog Days Prime, where each Warframe will come with a scantly clad, Life Guard leotard, all of them. Lots of bare chests, abs, butts, legs, shoulders, backs, thighs, elbows, chins, knees. Not just Warframes, the Executioners as well. 

Just like the Heirloom skins, they'll all have this glossy, starry, oily texture to them as well, make them glisten. 

How will that help? Well the thirsty chase water, and if you think running into walls is bad, you should see running into open bodies of water. Significant safety hazard, whether its a beach or bathtub. So you can relax, they will be safe next year, when their Life Guards appear.