Bows: A Joke

[Makya]

Yeah... being ONE SHOT KILLED by stalker's Dread is a joke...

For once a NPC has a weapon that does similar damage to a Player's weapon.. of course it would one shot most players, have you seen what player bows do and still are considered crap? Can you imagine the Stalker with a Soma?

[[DE]Momaw]

Nobody is arguing about bow performance on a single target.  They are very powerful weapons that will end almost any enemy with one hit. The problem is that enemies rarely come one at a time, and the bow's kills per minute is pathetic. So you drop one enemy on contact, FWIP! Right through the head. Then you reload, and draw, and aim, and by the time you're releasing your second arrow the guy with the Soma or Penta has already made half a dozen kills because they can just spray into the mob to succeed.

[34Brewster]

With Shred and ragdolling, the Dread can kill three targets with a single shot an can be charged extremely quickly. I'd say its kill per minute rate is more than adequate.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Overal Bow DPS relative to their rifle/shotty/snipe counterparts is definitely something that has been noted. The data and feedback speaks a picture that a review in some form is necessary - if not only damage outright, but role in combat, etc.

 

With melee getting a complete overhaul, I wonder if the bows will need review beyond just straight up data changes to include a playstyle that doesn't put people in the situations like Momaw described (Penta does job better in the time you have to reload, etc).

 

In any case - all good feedback. For some bows are a stylistic choice and that is satisfying enough, but always room to review!

[bejuizb]

Data changes might do the trick, but maybe make bows a high risk high reward weapon. That would encourage more people to take bows to higher level missions. But I agree, they might need a look at one Melee 2.0 comes out.

[Namacyst]

Sure.. Warframe is a game and "Space Ninjas" don't shout out "realism" .. but simply changing the Data to match.. let's say.. a Sniper rifle is not a good way imho. Let's face it... Bows are antique and overall BAD weapons when it comes to killing heavy armored, cloned, half machine Grineer for example.

 

Right now i can't even think of a way to make them unique, viable or "good" compared to other weapons without drifting far off into unrealism.

[Keltik0ne]

Right now i can't even think of a way to make them unique, viable or "good" compared to other weapons without drifting far off into unrealism.

I'm pretty sure that a sum total of ............0 weapons in this game are realistic. If bows need buffing for balance, I'm ok with that.

 

Can't type any more, have to go down the range with my electric lightning biogun and shoot some steel.

[bobafetthotmail]

Sure.. Warframe is a game and "Space Ninjas" don't shout out "realism" .. but simply changing the Data to match.. let's say.. a Sniper rifle is not a good way imho. Let's face it... Bows are antique and overall BAD weapons when it comes to killing heavy armored, cloned, half machine Grineer for example.

Because slaughtering armored foes by throwing modified gardening tools (Kunai and Despair) makes so much sense.

 

Bows need to be fun and useful.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Overal Bow DPS relative to their rifle/shotty/snipe counterparts is definitely something that has been noted. The data and feedback speaks a picture that a review in some form is necessary - if not only damage outright, but role in combat, etc.

 

With melee getting a complete overhaul, I wonder if the bows will need review beyond just straight up data changes to include a playstyle that doesn't put people in the situations like Momaw described (Penta does job better in the time you have to reload, etc).

 

In any case - all good feedback. For some bows are a stylistic choice and that is satisfying enough, but always room to review!

the simple solution IMHO is to MASSIVELY INCREASE the requirements for stealth applications into the core gameplay mechanics (ie stealth or be overwhelmed by reinforcements)

this does not have to impact every single mission type however, but it would be a HUGE boon to warframe to give us AT LEAST 1-2 mission types that required or HEAVILY favored stealth thus an incentive to use the stealth weapons (which are understandibly less powerful than automatic rifles/machineguns)

missions that fail if we are discovered and cant turn off the alarm in 30 secs, or missions that require stealth or we get swarmed by incoming forces, or missions that require stealth becuz we have to steal something and be undetected (if they discover us stealing the data, the data is ruined/worthless), etc, etc, etc

IMHO the ONLY way to make the bows and other silent-style weapons compare-able is to give them a proper outlet ingame (elephant in room here is why 2ndary throwing weps do more dmg/dps than other sidearms, should prolly be addressed, could change them to having high crits or undetected bonuses, but reduce their base dmg, or just leave them OP, whatevs)

[tmtke]

WTH, I was using my Dread few hours ago in high level Survival / Mobile Defense missions with really good efficiency (1st damage...). It does a really good basic damage, nice AOE with Thunderbolt and with added punch through it is highly effective.

[Kalenath]

Sure.. Warframe is a game and "Space Ninjas" don't shout out "realism" .. but simply changing the Data to match.. let's say.. a Sniper rifle is not a good way imho. Let's face it... Bows are antique and overall BAD weapons when it comes to killing heavy armored, cloned, half machine Grineer for example.

 

Right now i can't even think of a way to make them unique, viable or "good" compared to other weapons without drifting far off into unrealism.

 

Unless you want to kill those heavily armored cloned, half machine Grineer without anyone seeing or hearing you do it.

 

I'll play my way, you can play yours.

[Coldmood_Viney]

How about crits lol? Me dread deal 50k without baffs (banshee, nova itc) and in ok with it/

[Noble_Cactus]

The problem with bows is not that they don't do their job (being silent, powerful, long range weapons). They manage to do it very, very well.

 

It's just that there's no place for that niche in the game as it is.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Sustain will almost always outdamage burst/spike damage in the long run. It's a fact of RPG life. Where single target, high-powered weapons would shine is when you need to take out an important enemy so he doesn't whomp your teammate, or to neutralize the threat from a distance before he even becomes one.

 

That would work great, except that in ARPGs, you're often fighting hordes of enemies. My Vectis can currently one-shot anything up to about lv50 or maybe even higher before Sonar, and it's not completely modded out yet. I can put big pretty numbers on the screen and take out a Napalm or tech quickly but that doesn't matter when my friend next to me with a Penta is doing the same and much more. So weapons with moderate to high power that can take out groups of enemies will almost always win and will always be more efficient. Thunderbolt seems to have been created to compensate for this lack in bows, but now that it does a flat 250 damage, it falls short past level 30 or so (and why use that when you could Penta/Ogris the crowd anyway?). Perhaps if it had its old damage back and had a high Blast knockdown or stagger proc rate it would be of more use? *shrug*

 

Bows and snipers are caught in a predicament where they're hampered by how the game works, and I don't see them becoming more desirable than a Synapse/Penta/etc. any time soon unless drastic changes were made to core mechanics. And if that were to happen, I'm sure it would upset a lot of people, considering past feedback to most everything DE's done lately.

 

As an aside, the above-mentioned stealth missions are a potential nightmare in multiplayer with Randoms. Though I'm not sure. How did games like Metal Gear Online implement it? If steath was a viable, successful option in that game, there might be lessons to learn from it.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Ronyn]

While I do agree that more stealth mission options would be a good way to bring bows a bit more into the forefront...

That will only go so far as long we have a mod that can turn rifles pretty much silent anyway.

 

What bows need is a clearer niche and stronger effect.

1: As a charge up weapon: bows should hit harder than non-charge weapons.

That is just balance 101 right there.

 

2: Being a sci-fi game where we are using magnetic fields to propel the arrows...I suggest giving all arrows an inherent punch through. 

Note: this may muscle in on the Lankas' territory but I think the Lanka, as a railgun/coilgun, should be an intsa-hit projectile anyway.. 

That would keep it unique when compared to the Bows.

 

3: Special arrow mods could be more useful. Thunderhead (or whatever it is that makes arrows explode) is great when it triggers.

Instead of it being a "chance to" it should just do it consistently. Its not like we don't have explosive weapons in the game...so why not?

Note: This may muscle in on the Ogris territory but honestly the mod already exists it just needs to not suck.

 

4: Please, for goodness sake, back off on the arc of the Paris. It drops too fast. 

[[DE]Momaw]

nice AOE with Thunderbolt and with added punch through it is highly effective.

Bolt-bows are awesome at low levels. They can easily stomp all over everybody else for damage contributed because everything dies in one explosion that you can deliver accurately from long range. But once you get past the point that the non-scaling 250 damage kills an enemy, Bolt-bows lose their luster. Consider: The bow one-shots almost any enemy on a direct hit. So you kill the guy you hit, and lightly wound everybody else nearby. ...... Then you have to spend another arrow to directly strike an enemy (killing them instantly), and triggering another explosion which does light damage to enemies nearby. Basically, at high levels of play, there is a mathematical function you could devise to work out how many enemies you need crammed into how small a space to be able to kill any of them with splash damage before you pick them off with direct hits.

The obvious solution that needs testing is to simply make Thunderbolt do splash damage as a fraction of your direct hit damage. Whatever the arrow did, Thunderbolt does 25% of that as AOE. That means it scales with your weapon's actual damage, and even crits work properly.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Just give bows some good innate puncture. And if the problem is spike damage being useless when compared to sustained Sniper rifles should also be considered eligible for a tweak since IIRC they're pretty much focused on spike damage.

[Noble_Cactus]

I like the idea for more arrow mods. Thunderbolt needs a re-rework, as noted above. I still like my blast proc idea but that's just me (proper scaling like Momaw noted would also be necessary). Maybe a poison arrow mutation that had a chance to proc a Gas cloud on hitting a target? To prevent it from treading on the Torid's turf (a weapon that could also stand to see a buff, though that's more to do with how damage works than anything), maybe it could only proc on crit or headshot. Might be a bad idea, but it'd fit in line with the theme of bows, and it's a starting point for better ideas. Other ideas I just cobbled together while eating lunch were a lightning arrow that procced a chain arc on crit, a fire arrow that spawned a puddle of flame on crit, an ice arrow that created a small AoE freeze, etc. Something to give them more utility if they truly cannot be brought up to par - or close to it - with the big boy guns. The best part? It'd give bow users freedom of choice, as they'd be able to decide what role they want to fill. The biggest problem here, though, is the question of equipping multiples of these mods.

 

Inherent punch-through could also be nice. In fact, I thought the Dread did when I first saw it due to how the arrows look and work. It'd also save a mod space. Metal Auger and Shred work great when the conditions line up just right, but there are plenty of situations where enemies are by their lonesome running to the pod or they're not lined up perfectly and the mod is wasted. I just can't justify running it over Point Strike or Vital Sense/Hammer Shot on my Vectis right now. Penetration on snipers is how the Left 4 Dead series attempts to make them viable when fighting hordes of mobs, as an offhanded reference.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[SquirmyBurrito]

Bolt-bows are awesome at low levels. They can easily stomp all over everybody else for damage contributed because everything dies in one explosion that you can deliver accurately from long range. But once you get past the point that the non-scaling 250 damage kills an enemy, Bolt-bows lose their luster. Consider: The bow one-shots almost any enemy on a direct hit. So you kill the guy you hit, and lightly wound everybody else nearby. ...... Then you have to spend another arrow to directly strike an enemy (killing them instantly), and triggering another explosion which does light damage to enemies nearby. Basically, at high levels of play, there is a mathematical function you could devise to work out how many enemies you need crammed into how small a space to be able to kill any of them with splash damage before you pick them off with direct hits.

The obvious solution that needs testing is to simply make Thunderbolt do splash damage as a fraction of your direct hit damage. Whatever the arrow did, Thunderbolt does 25% of that as AOE. That means it scales with your weapon's actual damage, and even crits work properly.

 

If thunderbolt doesn't do the blast damage proc (knockdown) then it should be given that effect to make it more useful in higher level missions. I worded it like that because I never bothered to use thunderbolt and I haven't touched my bows in a long time (my dread is still level 6).

[TheCometCE]

I agree that the bows really need to be looked at, personally I think some new mods that alter the core functionally of the bow would help split them off from being a chargeable sniper and into a specialized weapon. I'm talking things like shots that a

split off after hitting a target, arrows that leave a slick that can slow down enemies or be ignited by fire, or arrows that create a sizeable Shockwave that does blast knock down, effects like that to make them truly unique against all the snipers.

Edited January 2, 2014 by TheCometCE

[LazyKnight]

If I could do a balance pass on bows I would make a few basic changes before DPS was considered at all. I have seen plenty of games do them right so it not like it's impossible.

 

Possible things that could make bows more practical:

 

#1. Reduce the charge time to less than .5 seconds base, it should be near instant draw speed. This wouldn't make bows overpowered and would eliminate the MANDATORY speed trigger mod.

 

#2. Give all charged shot 1.2 meter puncture as a base stat.

 

#3. Review the need for having non-charged shots after the change of #1.

 

#4 Have the triggering of thunderbolt guarantee a 100% proc rate of ALL mods and effects on the bow

[Vheraun]

Bows aren't about the damage. Well, at least not mainly. 

 

They're about the sheer awesomeness they bring to the game.

 

I mean, a person next to me was firing his rifle killing tons of Grineer, while I sprint-slided under one with my Paris and nailed him to the ceiling. Which is more awesome?

Plus, bows are really useful for solo stealth gameplay as well as mobile missions, since they 1/2 shot most normal enemies. They aren't meant for Defense and perhaps not Survival either, I'll give you that, but just the feeling I get every time I get a headshot with a bow while sprinting is invaluable.

 

Space Legolas ftw.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Vheraun

[Noble_Cactus]

But I want my space elf to be able compete :(

 

Snipers and bows work great for run and gun maps if you can stay ahead of the pack, though, I agree.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Shiniko]

Yep. Ogris best bow.

[ReiganCross]

Can someone come up with a Bow Joke so this topic doesn't feel so anti-climatic to come into a rant expecting a joke?

[Doforcash]

In any case - all good feedback. For some bows are a stylistic choice and that is satisfying enough, but always room to review!

give bow fully-charge shot more deadly

 

don't need damage, or crit/status buff, just THIS