Major Game Breaking Flaw For Those Who Chose Veil/meridian As A Syndicate.

[Kinperor]

Yep! Cephalon Suda is the farthest you get from "life"... well, 'natural/biological', as New Loka defines life... this is the ultimate perversion of their ideals, a return to an original state of grace. These two syndicates are polarized around this definition of 'being alive'. The suggestion of history between them is also intriguing!

 

I don't mean to bash your narrative, but isn't that an odd thing to polarize their relation around? I mean, New Loka's goal is repopulating Earth and purifying humanity, while Suda is sitting in a corner reading books. The conflict around "definition of  being alive" doesn't exactly jump to me, personally, especially with Suda being stated as mostly emotionless (although her reaction to me was more passive aggressive). There's some inconsistency to iron out here, I find. 

 

Also, tangentially related, but how does Loka rationalize using Ancients as specters? Is that a story/gameplay segregation moment or they really are pretty cool with the Infested faction despite their hard on for purity? 

 

Thanks for answering BTW! 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Kinperor

[UnluckiestSquid]

I love this thread.  

 

[unknow99]

Yeah yeah :) - but I'm supremely interested to see what our Tenno think and respond to!

Will each faction leader give transmissions the entire special mission at some point? See & help their own troops or friendly NPC's (I heard that grineer got slaves but we've seen none) ingame? You know,because "more life in the Warframe universe" & "we wanna interact with those we fight for".

[Edgedemon]

So the Meridian protect the innocent, whereas the Veil punish the guilty?

with a WIDE definition of guilty

 

the way i found to explain that to myself is in the method, no matter how noble your ideals are in a war there will be people in the crossfire which Steel Meridian finds unacceptable while Red Veil considers "necessary sacrifice" after all  "no blood too precious"..

[Exodess]

/signed

[Edgedemon]

I don't mean to bash your narrative, but isn't that an odd thing to polarize their relation around? I mean, New Loka's goal is repopulating Earth and purifying humanity, while Suda is sitting in a corner reading books. The conflict around "definition of  being alive" doesn't exactly jump to me, personally, especially with Suda being stated as mostly emotionless (although her reaction to me was more passive aggressive). There's some inconsistency to iron out here, I find. 

 

Also, tangentially related, but how does Loka rationalize using Ancients as specters? Is that a story/gameplay segregation moment or they really are pretty cool with the Infested faction despite their hard on for purity? 

 

Thanks for answering BTW! 

For new Loka,  Cephalon Suda is an unnatural abomination and as happens even today with certain religious zealots  they feel the need to restore natural order eradicating the anomaly, Cephalon on the other hand mostly leave other groups to their devices but to accomplish their goals they have to warrant self-preservation and being emotionless they can coldly decide the removal of potential threats.

[Mcl_Blue]

For new Loka,  Cephalon Suda is an unnatural abomination and as happens even today with certain religious zealots  they feel the need to restore natural order eradicating the anomaly, Cephalon on the other hand mostly leave other groups to their devices but to accomplish their goals they have to warrant self-preservation and being emotionless they can coldly decide the removal of potential threats.

From this point of view, I can definitely see why New Loka would have animosity towards Suda. However, unless they are actively hunting for her, even if they are violently opposed to her, I don't see why Suda would reciprocate the animosity.

[LukeAura]

In this case, don't you mean antiestablishmentarianism?

Nope, I'm against the veil, although for the Meridian oddly enough.

Therefore I'm against their disestablishmentarianism. 

 

[TrinityPrime]

From this point of view, I can definitely see why New Loka would have animosity towards Suda. However, unless they are actively hunting for her, even if they are violently opposed to her, I don't see why Suda would reciprocate the animosity.

 

Think of it more like preemptively dealing with a threat before it develops to the point where it could cause significant harm to Suda's prospects as well as establishing the concept of consequential destruction should they hamper her pursuits.

 

When you involve yourself with emotion driven mortals, you gotta deal with them on their level of understanding.

Edited October 29, 2014 by KnotOfMetal

[RossRam]

I guess, I will drop my two cents as a one, who supports SM/RV. This is really, really sophisticated, but I'll try...

 

 

So, first, nobody ever told us that Red Veil slay innocents and stuff. It's like when Syndicates just appeared, people were surprised with Red Veil ideology, because several updates back we all helped them and everyone dreamed that they are proud and noble white knights of pure light. And now everyone's thinking that Red Veil are merciless crazy berserkers killing everyone. Come on, keep it real.

 

Second. So, what we actually do know is that 'No cost too great, no blood too precious', but it is all to 'heal the system' and 'return it to the state of balance'. Giving they are allies of Steel Meridian, 'healing the system' may very well mean 'saving the innocents' and stuff.

 

And now I will go into my own fantasies, away from the facts.

Steel Meridian are the only guys whose target is to protect colonists. Also, they are led by Grineer deserter. This gives my mind two ideas:

 

1)Grineer guys don't like treachery that much, remember what Ruk wanted to do with Grustrag Three. And people are people. Some colonists can betray their defenders by means like interrogation or promises of better life. Therefore, Steel Meridian need guys like Red Veil, who are kinda experts in seeing corruption.

 

2)Meridian don't have their target, other than protect colonies. So they protect the colonies and protect and protect and... what next? It has to end once, right? Gathering knowledge, searching the truth behind the Tenno, and exercising trades doesn't really help with it. So there are either New Loka or Red Veil. But New Loka turned 'away from genetic tampering that has twisted the Grineer', and Steel Meridian is led by Grineer deserter. So Red Veil is the only exit. To 'heal the system' through the violent purge? I guess former Grineer warrior accepted such alliance with an honest smile.

 

That's it... Though my mind is a weird place, and english is not my first language, I hope, I made it reasonable.

Edited October 29, 2014 by RossRam

[Doom_Bunny]

I worked my around this by playing for New Loka and Red Veil. Seeing as Steel Merdian requires an orokin catalyst at some point I'm not going to bother with them. This way I also get a third group the Perrin Sequence. However doing it this way means I have double the -rep points towards Cephalon Suda.

 

From this point of view, I can definitely see why New Loka would have animosity towards Suda. However, unless they are actively hunting for her, even if they are violently opposed to her, I don't see why Suda would reciprocate the animosity.

New Loka would probably interfere with some of Suda's operations. Suda would just be taking preemptive action against New Loka to stop them.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Postal_pat

[[DE]Steve]

I don't mean to bash your narrative, but isn't that an odd thing to polarize their relation around? I mean, New Loka's goal is repopulating Earth and purifying humanity, while Suda is sitting in a corner reading books. The conflict around "definition of  being alive" doesn't exactly jump to me, personally, especially with Suda being stated as mostly emotionless (although her reaction to me was more passive aggressive). There's some inconsistency to iron out here, I find. 

 

Also, tangentially related, but how does Loka rationalize using Ancients as specters? Is that a story/gameplay segregation moment or they really are pretty cool with the Infested faction despite their hard on for purity? 

 

Thanks for answering BTW! 

 

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

 

Suda is tougher I agree with you, but I am drawn to the idea (like Ordis) that the most successful designs would prioritize self-preservation and identifying threats. For Suda to not care that masses of Tenno rally around New Loka wouldn't be smart. But you're right, that means Suda is more than a librarian. Maybe its silly but perhaps Suda thinks New Loka is the most boring of the Syndicates, because Suda really values intricacy, nuance and information more than anything else.

 

(Yeeppppp I'm stretching)

 

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

[RossRam]

Actually, all discussions about Cephalon Suda can be considered as possible variants. Suda is a machine, creature of pure logic, without emotions, hardcoded. So we can never find reasons in its actions.

[011100110110000101101101]

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

You may be able to get away with Loka using Corrupted Crewmen.

 

If you think that conflicts with the Arbiters and their Lancers, maybe the Arbiters could use a weaker form of Tenno specter?

 

That would make more sense.

[Omekah]

:) Great discussion-

 

Veil do use those things because to them 'the ends justify the means'. The System to them is the Grineer and Corpus. Meridian are splintered from the Grineer itself and are rebelling against that so they see the Veil as the 'darker side' of accomplishing the same thing.

 

The Arbiters want to create a new system, ruled by Tenno and value discipline and restraint. These are very much opposed to the Veil values. I think of Arbiters as cool and calm and Veil as vivid fire. I think Bane is a good comparison.

 

New Loka could never see eye to eye with Veil in my opinion because they seek the restoration of the lost 'order' which the Veil is suspicious of.

 

Cephalon Suda would be a curious ally of Meridian I think because, at the end of it, Suda thinks at a higher level than Meridian and that would frustrate Meridian. Suda doesn't like destruction though because it values existence and the variety of existence. If was sort of thinking of Wan Shi Tong in Airbender.

 

You guys rock and I think interpretation and some amount of contradiction makes this more interesting.

 

tl;dr Red Veil wants to get rid of Grineer and Corpus the extremely violent way, while Steel Meridian are in their rebellious teenager stage. Arbiters are apart of the Tenno Master Race, New Loka are all about peace, and Cephalon Suda are owl spirits.

[ArcariusAero]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

I think DE_Steve is showing us the future, guys. Soon enough, the machines will be the end of our normal lives and we'll become the Orokin. Then we'll all have our children and/or us become space ninjas. GG guys.

[Kinperor]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

 

Suda is tougher I agree with you, but I am drawn to the idea (like Ordis) that the most successful designs would prioritize self-preservation and identifying threats. For Suda to not care that masses of Tenno rally around New Loka wouldn't be smart. But you're right, that means Suda is more than a librarian. Maybe its silly but perhaps Suda thinks New Loka is the most boring of the Syndicates, because Suda really values intricacy, nuance and information more than anything else.

 

(Yeeppppp I'm stretching)

 

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

 

Alright, first off: "What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'?" I don't know if it's just me, but that's actually a pretty good question since (as far as I know) the public doesn't know what destroyed humanity in Warframe, unless you mean the Orokin, and the only witness says we are to blame (oops!). Actually, that's another question I had about New Loka: What subset of humanity do they want to bring back? Current era? Orokin Era? 

 

Second: Don't feel bad about rephrasing, I get your point now. But as you said, it mostly justifies the hostility from Loka toward Suda, and not vice versa. I don't know for you, but I don't really have an issue with conflicts coming from one side only per se. With that said, maybe adding an history between the two would help flesh out the lore around the hostility better?

 

Third, if the specters are an issue, why not give Loka a new breed of Kubrows? They fit the niche as non-human combatants and are already established as human pets? Maybe a breed which fills a similar niche to Ancient Healers?  

[Othergrunty]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

(...)

 

So are they planning to destroy all thinking machines down to the calculators and then replace them with Mentats? Ha ha.

I really get a butlerian impression from the way you describe their opposition to Loka.

 

I also assume working with Tenno is also an "the end justify the means" thing for them, considering the Tenno seem to fill all points to count as abomination in their eyes (undefined mutated former humans in suits made from a techno-organic materials, commanded by a mysterious AI and using AIs to pilot their ships).

 

Also thanks for the interesting points you brought up.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Kalenath]

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

 

One thing I put in a fanfiction awhile back...

 

The FIRST Infested were 'Infected' in Dark Sector. Hayden Tenno (The FIRST Tenno) was infected with the Technocyte virus, but either had the force of will to remain mostly human or chose to transcend his humanity while still fighting to preserve it. (And himself. Mezner's madness wasn't really safe to be around)

 

So... The Technocyte 'infected' were humans first, yes? What if some could be 'woken'? Would they want to keep attacking humanity or would they try to help defend it? Put right all the things that have gone wrong? (SENTIENT Infested...and the REGULAR ones give me the creeps already...)

 

Maybe New Loka 'woke' some Infested. Made them sentient again, separate from the rest of the Infested. And since the Infested are NOT machines...

 

Yes it's a stretch, but an idea.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Kalenath

[Latronico]

I think people misunderstood Steel Meridian.
They're not Space Hippies. They do not protect free people putting flowers into guns barrels. They're armed, they're a fighting force. A sort of volunteers militia. 

 

Tenno encountered the Red Veil several times. It's clear they're not maniacs. Revenge is their purpose. In a reality at war, how do you think people would act? 

Did you read newspapers these days? In Syria there is a militia of volunteers, free people, who're fighting IS with their own methods. They capture terrorists and torture and kill them, as well as they do to the rest of the people in Syria and Iraq. They clearly said they want revenge. They want to scare IS terrorists and make them suffer as they do. 

But, a bit of Kms far from there, in Iraq, Kurds and Iraqi people are fighting IS as well, with different methods. 

 

That's how I see Red Veil. People who suffered injustice, who lose everything thanks to the war Grineer started, that just want to fight against the system that ruined them and their lifes. 

Before judge them, how do you think you would react to something like that? With detached reasoning? Take a look at the rest of the World, where things like that are real. People like me, like you, act in the same way. Look at what's happening in Ukraine, or in Syria, or in Iraq, in Lybia and a lot more countries. It's human nature to fight against injustice with its own methods. 

 

So please, before judging the Red Veil or people who 'support' it, let's think about how would you react. 

 

Guys you have to keep in mind that Warframe background is a Solar System at war. A complete war, that spreads from Mercury to trans-neptunian objects. 

Grineer are taking everything they can, using force. 

Corpus are trying to make profit with everything and everyone, even with the war itself. 

Infesteds are spreading everywhere and the Infestation can reach every place thanks to infected ships. 

The last maniple of free people are desperately trying to survive to these three destructive forces in several ways. Someone think that it's better to hold the ground against all of them, trying to survive (Steel Meridian), someone think they have to react and fight them in the same way (Red Veil), someone think that the only way to make the war stops is to bring back everything as it was millennia ago (New Loka) and so on. 

Everyone is partially right and wrong. It's not black or white. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Latronico

[[DE]Steve]

Alright, first off: "What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'?" I don't know if it's just me, but that's actually a pretty good question since (as far as I know) the public doesn't know what destroyed humanity in Warframe

 

True True - mostly referring to the (admittedly sparse) tidbits, like Mag Primes Lore entry.

[Sitchrea]

True True - mostly referring to the (admittedly sparse) tidbits, like Mag Primes Lore entry.

 

Aaaaaaaand....

 

When will we get more of this? :) :) :)

 

? ? ?

[Hueminator]

Alright, first off: "What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'?"

Probably Arnold Schwarzenegger

 

I think Orokin Era is lots of machine, then comes the Sentient which turned the machines into the Terminator, then Orokin start using Infested and the Void then we get Warframe.

 

New Loka probably see AIs as time bomb and want to go back to Pre-Orokin Era (Minimal reliance on machines) and instead rely on Biological Weapon (in our case Infested)

 

On a side note, can't wait to get the rest of the Prime Lore.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Hueminator

[John89brensen]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

 

Suda is tougher I agree with you, but I am drawn to the idea (like Ordis) that the most successful designs would prioritize self-preservation and identifying threats. For Suda to not care that masses of Tenno rally around New Loka wouldn't be smart. But you're right, that means Suda is more than a librarian. Maybe its silly but perhaps Suda thinks New Loka is the most boring of the Syndicates, because Suda really values intricacy, nuance and information more than anything else.

 

(Yeeppppp I'm stretching)

 

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

But Tenno are no longer normal humans, why would New Loka seek Tenno help, and why would Tenno ally with a faction of human purists?

[unknow99]

Probably Arnold Schwarzenegger

Good point. He said himself that "he'll be back".

 

I just want to see the colonists,the innocent population I'm supposed to rescue. Like a soldier being greeted by the civilians the other army has been threatening. Like a Warframe.