The Problem Isn't Really Viver...

[REDHOOOD]

It was one wave.

 

Thats pretty intense; but please also address the latter part of my argument too:  With that being said, what is wrong with that? Why is spending an entire day in a DS defense or survival more acceptable that a 40 minute game in Viver? 

Edited November 11, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[LazyKnight]

It was one wave.

The experience gain is not unreasonable, consider when you only cap one point, your Excalibur/mag will kill several thousand NPCs in one round.

Edited November 11, 2014 by LazyKnight

[ENIAK_Prime]

It's actually starting to irritate me how so many people are already trying out new and exotic syndicate mods unlike anything we've seen in Warframe, but the only way to get there is to stop playing the game and instead just stand in one place pressing '4' a bunch.  I feel like I am being punished for NOT exploiting, because I know that DE won't do anything to people that have been participating in this.

 

So we end up with "petitions" for and against Viver grinding.  But they are kind of missing the point really.  The problem here isn't really Viver. The problem is that syndicates are going to take months for people to rank up without hardcore rep farming, and reputation is a straight up multiplier off the affinity you get for a mission, so the only thing that matters at all for reputation is how fast you can kill enemies. The gap between people who are playing the game normally and people who are just standing around pressing '4' is utterly and completely ludicrous as a result. We're talking like two orders of magnitude here. The reputation gains you get for playing normally e.g. doing missions-- even high level ones-- is insultingly low compared to targeted farming.

 

Reputation gains should be based on missions completed successfully, and whether you are using the equipment that your syndicate favors. Possibly including time engaged in combat to make endless type missions give a fair reward per play time and prevent speed-run Captures with submarine Lokis from being the new meta.  But absolutely not affinity earned.

 

And then to even the playing field and apologize for shipping Syndicates in such a state, run a script where every player who is not at least rank 4 in their highest faction gets their current reputation doubled and, if they qualify, upgraded in rank for free. Basically: If you exploited, then what's done is done and it's in the past and it would take too much effort to figure it out. But if you DIDN'T exploit, sorry for the unfair and frustrating faux pas, and here's a boost on your way.

+1.

+2.

+The Lord Kama, who gives us our fevers.

Just, agree. Nothing really to say. I hope more people see this. That is all.

[DSpite]

The issue with practically every game ever made:

 

http://www.gametheory.net/dictionary/StrictlyDominantStrategy.html

 

A strategy is strictly dominant if, regardless of what any other players do, the strategy earns a player a strictly higher payoff than any other. Hence, a strategy is strictly dominant if it is always strictly better than any other strategy, for any profile of other players' actions. If a player has a strictly dominant strategy, than he or she will always play it in equilibrium. Also, if one strategy is strictly dominant, than all others are dominated. For example, in the prisoner's dilemma, each player has a strictly dominant strategy.

 

Either a game adds features that are an intrinsic part of "simply playing the game", or they are added with specific systems that can be "grinded". Welcome to Syndicates, and Viver. If Viver was closed down, the next best node would be used, and so on.

 

There is no currently "fun" way to get Rep. The missions for Syndicates are the same missions as ever, have a limit per day, and generally make it harder to get a team for. Those factors limit the reasons for that system to be played, and people just shrug and go grind Viver.

[Telapoopy]

Syndicates aren't meant to be something you directly grind for. They are supposed to be for passive progression. The problem is that veteran players have already exhausted their direct objectives when the syndicates came out, and now we feel that we have to complete them like everything else. If we were all beginner players when syndicates came out, we would have maxed out our syndicate by MR17

[DSpite]

Syndicates aren't meant to be something you directly grind for. They are supposed to be for passive progression. The problem is that veteran players have already exhausted their direct objectives when the syndicates came out, and now we feel that we have to complete them like everything else. If we were all beginner players when syndicates came out, we would have maxed out our syndicate by MR17

 

Beginner players would see a way out of the RNG to get exact mods, and they would probably still aim to do this. If you don't have a game where everything is equally enticing - which is a *@##$ do to - then people will aim for the bits that stand out.

[NinthAria]

Syndicates are meant to be a lengthy commitment. People are impatient. That's the problem.

[TrinityPrime]

 

No need for review. They've created a grind and we're grinding.

 

 

^

[Loswaith]

Syndicates are meant to be a lengthy commitment. People are impatient. That's the problem.

(and for all others making this comment)

 

While syndicates are meant to be long term goal, grinding Viver in the most efficient way will still take you about 50-60 missions (without a booster) to get a primary syndicate to rank 5 (240k rep needed, and each mission gives about 4-5k rep, unboosted).  This is presuming you are not buying any goods or working on multiple factions (which is unlikely).  If you want to call in the rewards then it will take you much longer (all of them will close to double your time).

 

Now if you do only all your syndicate specific missions (earning about 1.5k-2k rep per 3 missions on average) only your looking at around 350-500 syndicate missions (though you have none for the first 5k rep), to just hit rank 5 in your primary syndicate (again not buying anything).  The more casual/busy players may not even have that many after a year.

 

As a reference keep in mind there are only about 250 odd nodes in the game, thus meaning you would need to play a syndicate mission on every node in the game more than once and many of them twice.

 

So yes DE wants it to be a long process.. but currently it is longer than playing the entire game for dedicating yourself to just ranking up in a single Syndicate.  The obvious intent is you will be part of atleast both the allied pairs.

 

At the end of the day there is something that takes a long time and something that takes longer than the shelf life (current syndicate gain) of the game for the majority of players.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Loswaith

[Neocyberman]

Syndicates are supposed to be endgame, something requiring more skill or time put into the game to complete or get into.

 

Syndicates require you to put in XP rather than say reward time and gameplay put in or that you have already put in.

 

Syndicates in the end reward additional gameplay rather than what you have already built up.

 

Higher level players use high up node to rush through it because it is an abysmal grind, this is their only advantage. Node will now be nerfed

 

If they remove the XP gathering potential of this node I guess I'm done with the system. I'll just throw the rest of my points into the shield drones because all but 2-3 of the mods are worth putting up with this nonsense for.

[ThePresident777]

The problem is people exploiting XP as an excuse to destroy game play.  That is the only exploitation going on here.  "Pressing 4 to win" is not exploitation, it is game play whether someone else likes it or not.  Blowing up massive hordes is game play.  It is not exploitation.  It's one way to play the game and no one is forcing anyone to do it.

 

If XP is a problem then deal directly with it instead of exploiting it as an excuse to destroy people's fun.  Destroying highly rewarding locations does not make low reward locations worth spending time on.  Destroying anything good does not make it worth while to choose what is not good.  It just makes it worth while to play another game and spend money somewhere else rather than here.  So lets just put an end to these disfunctional ideas of making all choices viable by making them all terrible.  It doesn't work because terrible choices are not viable.  They are not game design.  They are just failed attitudes.

[sekushiiandee]

glad someone posted about this and agree with OP

 

 

i did an extremely rough estimate earlier in the other viver complaint forums trying to show players the time it would take to efficiently and effectively farm 1 syndicate reputation to its maximum title

 

it was roughly 78 hours of gameplay with maximum effectiveness in viver, eris....with a fully built squad that worked together and had no boosters what so ever -> after 78 hours they would be able to achieve their maximum title in 1 and only 1 syndicate....this number of hours does not include the time it takes to farm for the mods

 

 

sorry but i only have about 800-900 hours total....if had to spent 10% of my total gameplay just to ONLY dedicate to gaining reputation...that is rather ridiculous

[NoeleVeerod]

I couldn't care less if Viver is regarded as exploiting. I have a life outside of home, and I can't expect to sit in front of my computer 24/7 for entire months just to level up Syndicates the "proper" way. Some call Viver an exploit, I call it a logical shortcut to avoid what would otherwise be a reason for me not to play. I have nothing against "grinding", except when it leads to "no-lifing".

 

The fact that a player can get truckloads of experience and max out everything he could ever want as a side effect doesn't change my opinion.

[sekushiiandee]

I couldn't care less if Viver is regarded as exploiting. I have a life outside of home, and I can't expect to sit in front of my computer 24/7 for entire months just to level up Syndicates the "proper" way. Some call Viver an exploit, I call it a logical shortcut to avoid what would otherwise be a reason for me not to play. I have nothing against "grinding", except when it leads to "no-lifing".

 

The fact that a player can get truckloads of experience and max out everything he could ever want as a side effect doesn't change my opinion.

^ you know what the funny part about it is? even though people use this clever method or strategy to gain reputation....it is still an extremely slow process

 

it really goes to show how bad the reputation system and the syndicate system really is

[Shezo]

I couldn't care less if Viver is regarded as exploiting. I have a life outside of home, and I can't expect to sit in front of my computer 24/7 for entire months just to level up Syndicates the "proper" way. Some call Viver an exploit, I call it a logical shortcut to avoid what would otherwise be a reason for me not to play. I have nothing against "grinding", except when it leads to "no-lifing".

 

The fact that a player can get truckloads of experience and max out everything he could ever want as a side effect doesn't change my opinion.

 

With this kinda attitude, why play at all ?

[RiperRazor123]

I do agree with you.

[Telapoopy]

Beginner players would see a way out of the RNG to get exact mods, and they would probably still aim to do this. If you don't have a game where everything is equally enticing - which is a $#*(@ do to - then people will aim for the bits that stand out.

Which is why the rewards for the syndicates are exclusive and so specialized.

[MistressMoonpaw]

It's actually starting to irritate me how so many people are already trying out new and exotic syndicate mods unlike anything we've seen in Warframe, but the only way to get there is to stop playing the game and instead just stand in one place pressing '4' a bunch.  I feel like I am being punished for NOT exploiting, because I know that DE won't do anything to people that have been participating in this.

 

So we end up with "petitions" for and against Viver grinding.  But they are kind of missing the point really.  The problem here isn't really Viver. The problem is that syndicates are going to take months for people to rank up without hardcore rep farming, and reputation is a straight up multiplier off the affinity you get for a mission, so the only thing that matters at all for reputation is how fast you can kill enemies. The gap between people who are playing the game normally and people who are just standing around pressing '4' is utterly and completely ludicrous as a result. We're talking like two orders of magnitude here. The reputation gains you get for playing normally e.g. doing missions-- even high level ones-- is insultingly low compared to targeted farming.

 

Reputation gains should be based on missions completed successfully, and whether you are using the equipment that your syndicate favors. Possibly including time engaged in combat to make endless type missions give a fair reward per play time and prevent speed-run Captures with submarine Lokis from being the new meta.  But absolutely not affinity earned.

 

And then to even the playing field and apologize for shipping Syndicates in such a state, run a script where every player who is not at least rank 4 in their highest faction gets their current reputation doubled and, if they qualify, upgraded in rank for free. Basically: If you exploited, then what's done is done and it's in the past and it would take too much effort to figure it out. But if you DIDN'T exploit, sorry for the unfair and frustrating faux pas, and here's a boost on your way.

You should familiarize yourself with the correct meaning of exploit first. And then, farming viver effectively, not half assed like most of you low-players do, it takes hard to get mods and the funds to rank them up. And then lastyl, what am i supposed to do? Im way over Mastery 17, there isnt any weapon left to rank up, nothing new to experience, nada. The only thing left to do is doing the syndicate rep (might as well be rape) deathgrind. Dont be a jealous kid just because others can farm viver for exp but you cant. Because if you could youd do it because its the only way to get that damn syndicate rep at an acceptable rate. Its not exploiting if you find an efficient way to do things. Exploiting would be abusing bugs or something like that, jesus

[Shezo]

You should familiarize yourself with the correct meaning of exploit first. And then, farming viver effectively, not half assed like most of you low-players do, it takes hard to get mods and the funds to rank them up. And then lastyl, what am i supposed to do? Im way over Mastery 17, there isnt any weapon left to rank up, nothing new to experience, nada. The only thing left to do is doing the syndicate rep (might as well be rape) deathgrind. Dont be a jealous kid just because others can farm viver for exp but you cant. Because if you could youd do it because its the only way to get that damn syndicate rep at an acceptable rate. Its not exploiting if you find an efficient way to do things. Exploiting would be abusing bugs or something like that, jesus

 

I dunno, seems to me that viver is an exploit.

Endless spawns in interception is there only to smooth out overall experience, since the length of each round vary, so you can't just go away with fixed spawns like in defense.

Also, viver map is very small and was designed for defense missions and not interception.

So, all things considered, spawn abusing is pretty much an exploit, since it's not an intended use for it.

[LtZefar]

 

Syndicates are meant to be a lengthy commitment. People are impatient. That's the problem.

 

People are not impatient, they got clever and used the skills of various Warframes to the utmost potential.

This should not be punished for.

 

I dunno, seems to me that viver is an exploit.

Endless spawns in interception is there only to smooth out overall experience, since the length of each round vary, so you can't just go away with fixed spawns like in defense.

Also, viver map is very small and was designed for defense missions and not interception.

So, all things considered, spawn abusing is pretty much an exploit, since it's not an intended use for it.

 

It's not abusing as it's working as intended. It needs teamwork and several rare mods to pull this off.

[Monolake]

Yeah Viver itself is not the problem,  its the result. 

And people will just find another place to grind the same way, not much will change. 

I made a topic (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/343437-viver-issue-combined-outcome-of-poor-desgin-of-frames-and-game-systems/) about the poor designs that naturally lead people to play this way to game the system and grind efficiently.  WF has become "Spam ult  to grind: the game". And a mod locked it in like 20 minutes. Which is like ostrich hiding his head in sand. The problem wont go away if you hush the people or lock down a single map. 

And OPs suggestion wont solve the core problems either.  Syndicate system needs a rework. XP earning in general could use a rework (but not as badly - its not a big issue, as it doesn't take long to rank to 30, but still you get the mindnumbing sechuring).

Edited November 11, 2014 by Monolake

[BrazilianJoe]

I totally agree with OP that basing Syndicate's rep off XP is the real problem, and Viver is just a symptom. 

 

Y'know, Viver is BORING. But it rewards great amounts of XP.  So it's the go-to place if your primary purpose is XP. 

 

Giving the finger to vets once you implement a system which requires huge dedication, as vets have already poured their huge dedication into the game is bad. 

 

Vets should be gifted an amount of rep proportional to the previous unlocking of content they (we) have already done. 

 

And the whole XP based thing should be thought over. 

 

 

There are myriads of ways to do that, I feel that posting here would derail the thread. 

 

So I'll state that again: the problem with syndicates is as OP said, in basing reputation off XP. 

[Ritchel]

reputation farming just pressing 4 isnt fun

how syndicate repu gained needs attention.

I cant believe how uncreative this feature is.
 

have d.e. thinked this over?
or is it a flash of idea then gets to ride with the update
just to keep people interested with an obvious boring grind??

sigh.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ritchel

[[DE]Momaw]

You should familiarize yourself with the correct meaning of exploit first. And then, farming viver effectively, not half assed like most of you low-players do, it takes hard to get mods and the funds to rank them up.

 

Well, Wiki says

"In video games, an exploit (colloquially sploit) is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers"

 

I don't see how I'm using the word incorrectly.  You're manipulating a game system (spawning) in a way that was not intended by the game designers (to trivialize the time-cost of the reputation system).  I think it's self-evident that you're not SUPPOSED to be getting 5K reputation in five minutes using a specific strategy when an ordinary hour-long mission at the game's highest difficulty offers around 2K, and that if you were being honest with yourself, you would admit this. But, again, I'm not even mad about that. I don't care about Viver itself. That's a different topic. What I care about is how painful the reputation grind is, and how it is rewarding only the people that are exploiting a specific map and strategy while everybody else is weeks behind, and what we need to do about that to make the game fun and fair again.

 

Also I think you guys need to lay off the "but it's so hard!" line. It's not hard. I've been there, I've tried it. You can convey the pre-packaged strategy in one sentence and it takes next to zero skill to actually execute it. It does require specific builds with expensive high ranked mods, but then, you can literally buy your way into having the optimal gear as the recent trends in Trade Chat show. And the notion that the reputation system should be ten times faster only for people that use specific warframe builds is frankly daft anyway.

 

Lastly, Viver farming is boring as hell. Why do you not appreciate the fact that what I proposed would make the game MORE FUN??   If reputation gain was not complete trivial for other mission types, you could play a little of everything the game has to offer instead of one specific map, standing in one specific spot, pressing 4 over and over and over.

 

 

 

Viver is just a symptom.

 

Exactly.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Momaw

[scavenge]

Kubrows, Archwing, Syndicates, all pretty underwhelming and/or terribly implemented (even lazily I'd say for a claimed to be 1year project like Archwing) updates imho.

 

Can only get better/fixed?