Enemies Create Weapons They Do Not Use

[zoboso]

Fact 1: We the player base love getting new weapons.

 

Fact 2: specters have required DE to allow the AI to use any weapon

 

Fact 3: Enemy factions create weapons they do not use

 

Question: why does the enemy not use the weapons that they "created"?

 

 

Now for the other reason DE should rectify this problem:

DE needs us to be interested while we are running the same mission over and over again, they do this by changing the tile order and what spawns when. I think a system that generates new types of enemies would help combat mission boredom by preventing the player from having seen it all before.

[Shifted]

I think a system that generates new types of enemies would help combat mission boredom by preventing the player from having seen it all before.

Butchers with Jat Kittags.

 

OH THE HORROR.

[Kestral9999]

Walk around the corner and *BAM* Opticor Crewman annihilates your face.

 

+1 I'm up for it. Corpus need Pentas to counter the Grineer Bombards.

Butchers with Jat Kittags.

 

OH THE HORROR.

I'd prefer something bigger than a butcher personally lol. Something like a Mini Lech Kril.

[RossRam]

Butchers with Jat Kittags.

 

OH THE HORROR.

 

Well, but Sprag could use Jat instead of Manticore, since one of G3 guys has Manticore as his weapon of choice.

 

Meanwhile, fact 4. Enemies also send us guys with Power Cells as soon as they spot us with scanners and excavators. Even more, those Power Cells don't give a single buff to the enemies themselves.

Edited December 9, 2014 by RossRam

[Kestral9999]

Well, but Sprag could use Jat instead of Manticore.

 

Meanwhile, fact 4. Enemies also send us guys with Power Cells as soon as they spot us with scanners and excavators. Even more, those Power Cells don't give a single buff to the enemies themselves.

Suspension of disbelief pertaining to game modes is pretty essential, you know.

[xlraistlx]

Give those weapons to Eximi units so the are not that common if they come to be OP while being used by AI.

[Ordel]

I've always wondered what warframe would be like if its' enemies weren't classified based on the weapon they used but other things such as armor, hp, etc.

 

So for example, lets say there's a basic grineer rifleman class which could use one of three grineer rifle-type weapons. Everytime one of these guys spawns, they'd have a chance at getting any one of the weapons in the rifles group, along with armor and hp variation. Maybe they would have medium armor and medium hp since they're just the average riflemen, or something like that.

 

Would be pretty cool imo but that'd be too much work. There's better things to use time on.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Ordel

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Question: why does the enemy not use the weapons that they "created"?

I think that's the same reason why any real army doesn't use every weapon they got (you know, every once in a while there's a competition for an upgraded weapon to replace current gun of choice).

Convenience and viability.

 

Like, seeing Crewmen with all weapons Corpus grade weapons (be it even repurposed things like Quanta, Spectra or Serro) would be at least weird.

 

And I don't even want to see a grineer trooper with a damn Marelok.

 

I'll do a handy list here... Just for myself, because I have nothing else to do.

Boltor-Tenno weapon.

Braton-Outdated Corpus design, doesn't really match any faction anymore.

Burston-Probably same as above (IIRC it was used by Grineer at some point but got replaced as it was a placeholder).

Buzlok-Pretty much a novelty.

Dera-In use.

Gorgon-In use.

Grakata-In use.

Grinlok-Novelty weapon without any purpose in the field.

Hind-In use.

Karak-I don't see any reason why it isn't used by Grineer troops, it pretty much fills the gap between Grakata and Hind.

Latron-Tenno weapon.

Mutalist Quanta-Take this thing away from me before I get assimilated.

Opticor-Impractical, Corpus have Lankas for this.

Paracyst-Same as Mutalist Quanta.

Soma-Tenno weapon

Supra-In use

Sybaris-Tenno weapon

Tetra-Could be used interchangeably with Dera for variety imho.

Tiberon-Tenno weapon.

Amprex-Wasn't that weapon repurposed tool?

Flux Rifle-In use.

Glaxion-Novelty at best, Cryotic too hard to get apparently, inefficient and expensive.

Quanta-Repurposed tool.

Synapse-Take it away from me (we have shock crawlers).

Boar-Was used at some point IIRC, Tenno/Orokin weapon.

Drakgoon-Impractical

Hek- High-rank exclusive.

Phage- Same as Paracyst and Mutalist Quanta

Sobek- Used

Strun- Probably was a placeholder, not really sure.

Tigris-Novelty/Tenno weapon.

Lanka-In use

Snipetron-Outdated, replaced by Lanka.

Vectis-Tenno weapon

Vulkar-In use

Bows and Crossbows-Novelty, Tenno/Orokin design.

Miter-In use

Ogris-In use

Penta-In use (archwing)

Torid-Same as Paracyst, M. Quanta and Phage.

 

 

And so on.

 

Most primaries in this game are used, bunch of secondaries too(most of which are either impractical prototypes as Angstrum or tenno weapons (Pretty much everything but Seer, Viper and Kraken, all of which are or were used)).

 

Melee, there's a handful of melee weapons manufactured and used by enemies (Machete, Sheev and Prova or Lecta) while the rest is pretty much Orokin/Tenno tech (with exception of repurposed weapons like Serro)

Out of all.

Amphis-In use

Sheev-No idea.

Halikar-In use

Lecta-too much training for an army of borderline clones I guess? Maybe coming with assassin-like Corpus femunit?

Jat Kittag-Impractical honestly, could be given to some miniboss though.

Furax (which are Tenno/Orokin design I'd guess) are in use of Grineer Powerfists.

Hate is used by the Stalker.

 

So yeah, pretty much every military grade weapon manufactured by given faction IS used.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Mofixil

[Rydian]

I remember reading DE explaining that making an enemy use a weapon was actually a lot more additional work on top of the weapon because they have to teach the enemy what the weapon is, how to use it, when to pause to reload, how it'll scale, etc.

[sekushiiandee]

 

I'd prefer something bigger than a butcher personally lol. Something like a Mini Lech Kril.

 

^ or more units similar to G3 look

 

there has to be more grineer that look like that in the solar system

Edited December 9, 2014 by sekushiiandee

[ClockworkSpectre]

I remember reading DE explaining that making an enemy use a weapon was actually a lot more additional work on top of the weapon because they have to teach the enemy what the weapon is, how to use it, when to pause to reload, how it'll scale, etc.

This, it isn't as simple as just giving them a weapon. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Fact 1: We the player base love getting new weapons.

 

Fact 2: specters have required DE to allow the AI to use any weapon

 

Fact 3: Enemy factions create weapons they do not use

 

Question: why does the enemy not use the weapons that they "created"?

 

 

Now for the other reason DE should rectify this problem:

DE needs us to be interested while we are running the same mission over and over again, they do this by changing the tile order and what spawns when. I think a system that generates new types of enemies would help combat mission boredom by preventing the player from having seen it all before.

 

I don't think it's in our best interest to have the AI use weapons *exactly like we do*. I remember one time in PvP where a Valkyr specter was alternating between using Paralysis and a Jat Kittag right in our spawn and it butchered our team (the other team lined up and shot at us while we were in perpetual stunlock). That's not something I ever want to have replicated in PvP.

 

The weapons would have to work differently. If I charge into a room and some Crewmen fired all six Quanta cubes right at the door it would be infuriating. Or if I was getting Penta nuked. Or Lectica chain-stunned.

 

Enemies should get new weapons slowly, after they've been changed to work as a weapon we can properly avoid/not get instakilled by. So maybe the Quanta would fire cubes that detonate 3 seconds after being fired, or the Lectica only did well telegraphed forward whips instead of wide, hardly avoidable swinging motions.

[Othergrunty]

Question: why does the enemy not use the weapons that they "created"?

 

I asked the question for a devstream, it eventualy got picked and this was the answer (devstream 32):

"CORPUS/GRINEER GUNS

Why are there suddenly so many weapons developed by Corpus and Grineer that aren't used by them? If you want to expand lore why do you break it so much with that?

Scott: Usually when a new AI type is created, we go through the vault of weapons that are available. I’m not saying we’re going to randomize it because it’d be unfair, with new AI coming into the game, we definitely have some more choices from our arsenal. When we started out, a lot of the weapons were given without reason, but now that we've got more themed weapons, we had to go back and tweak who uses what.

Geoff: We’ll have to give them new grip options, because right now they all use rifle grip.

Scott: I think the weapon changes are just a lack of time and focus on that part of the game."

 

You can take it as that the devs are creating new weapons in potentia, so they don't have to go back and give a Grineer and Corpus units weapons of Tenno design.

Like how Troopers carried Struns, Shield Lancers carried Sicarus and everyone once upon a time carried Bratons.

 

Still no harm asking it again in a more specific way in another devstream.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Othergrunty

[DarkLordX2]

Let me think about it...

-Brakk Lancer

-Marelok Lancer

-Grinlok Ballista

-Jat Kittag Butcher

 

Eh, not sure if i want :T

[Pizzarugi]

Let me think about it...

-Brakk Lancer

-Marelok Lancer

-Grinlok Ballista

-Jat Kittag Butcher

 

Eh, not sure if i want :T

Make the weapons be locked to specific kinds of Grineer that don't already have specific names.

- Lancers only get (semi) automatic weapons, Elite Lancers simply get higher tiered versions

- Troopers get all shotguns including Brakk

- Shield Lancers get pistols

- Commanders get pistols, including Marelok

- Ballista get snipers

- Butchers get blade weapons, including dual varients if applicable

- Scorpions get blade weapons and whips, dual varients if applicable

- Guardsmen/Prosecutors get polearms and Jat Kittag

Edited December 9, 2014 by Pizzarugi

[Ishki88]

Sigh....long over due...

[Draciusen]

I'd like the Jat Kittag to be used by a Heavy Unit, since those are the only models for the Grineer I can imagine wielding such a weapon. Maybe a different kind of female, since Bombards and Napalms are both male.

[Vargras]

This thread raises a good point.

 

I'd really like to see a Grineer melee unit with the Jat Kittag.

[Kungpaobeef]

It looks really awkward, when you disarm a heavy and all they're carrying is a stun stick. Replace that stun stick with the Jat Kittag so there'll actually be a downside to disarming them/a cool challenge to fight a heavy with the Kittag.

[tocorro]

Walk around the corner and *BAM* Opticor Crewman annihilates your face.

+1 I'm up for it. Corpus need Pentas to counter the Grineer Bombards.

I'd prefer something bigger than a butcher personally lol. Something like a Mini Lech Kril.

 Bigger You say ? :D 

[zoboso]

I remember reading DE explaining that making an enemy use a weapon was actually a lot more additional work on top of the weapon because they have to teach the enemy what the weapon is, how to use it, when to pause to reload, how it'll scale, etc.

 

This is no longer a problem as specters can use any weapon, the real reason it is not done is stated below.

 

I asked the question for a devstream, it eventualy got picked and this was the answer (devstream 32):

"CORPUS/GRINEER GUNS

Why are there suddenly so many weapons developed by Corpus and Grineer that aren't used by them? If you want to expand lore why do you break it so much with that?

Scott: Usually when a new AI type is created, we go through the vault of weapons that are available. I’m not saying we’re going to randomize it because it’d be unfair, with new AI coming into the game, we definitely have some more choices from our arsenal. When we started out, a lot of the weapons were given without reason, but now that we've got more themed weapons, we had to go back and tweak who uses what.

Geoff: We’ll have to give them new grip options, because right now they all use rifle grip.

Scott: I think the weapon changes are just a lack of time and focus on that part of the game."

 

You can take it as that the devs are creating new weapons in potentia, so they don't have to go back and give a Grineer and Corpus units weapons of Tenno design.

Like how Troopers carried Struns, Shield Lancers carried Sicarus and everyone once upon a time carried Bratons.

 

Still no harm asking it again in a more specific way in another devstream.

 

The real problem with this explanation is the nullification crewman did not get a different weapon from the sniper crewman.

[RossRam]

I remember reading DE explaining that making an enemy use a weapon was actually a lot more additional work on top of the weapon because they have to teach the enemy what the weapon is, how to use it, when to pause to reload, how it'll scale, etc.

 

Actually, this is mostly copy-paste work, where you'll fix a bunch of numbers to make weapon enemy-like.

 

This is no longer a problem as specters can use any weapon, the real reason it is not done is stated below.

 

Specters just don't need that number-related stuff. Their weapons are supposed to be just like Player ones, without any changes.

 

And with above two facts, I can, actually, name you an enemy, who has Player's weapon, without fixed numbers (or very badly fixed numbers).

Seeker. Just remember how crazy his Kraken is.

Edited December 11, 2014 by RossRam

[Rydian]

Bombards also have a different Ogris, theirs homes and junk.

 

Also weren't player specters unable to use the Opticor for a bit at first?  IIRC they'd just charge it infinitely and never fire.

[[DE]Grzegorz]

And with above two facts, I can, actually, name you an enemy, who has Tenno's weapon, without fixed numbers (or very badly fixed numbers).

Seeker. Just remember how crazy his Kraken is.

The Kraken is a heavy pistol of Grineer design that fires quick two shots with a single pull of the trigger. Skilled marksmen will appreciate the value in this deadly accurate weapon.

Source.

As much as I agree that Kraken is quite OP in Seekers' hands, it is a grineer tech, not Tenno/Orokin.

[rockscl]

butchers with dual grakata plz