Warframe Is Splitting Into 3 Mediocre Games

[Homage]

1) Warframe

 

2) Archwing

 

3) PvP

 

*arcade games

 

I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam.  The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same.  This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it.  Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Homage

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Don't forget about the og flappy zephyr.

[Sziklamester]

Wyrmius, flappy zephyr, grindwing, warswag, piu piu piu.

[AM-Bunny]

I do agree with your viewpoint, OP, but at least recognize that the upcoming PVP overhaul is the devs really trying to turn the mediocre game-mode into something presentable. Therefore, the foundation of your argument, that they do not re-view their previous endeavours, is challenged. 

[IfritKajiTora]

Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid.
I hate games where you can't beat something at perfect because this is how game is maded. Just like Diablo games, there are no guard and no dodges only EQ, Lvl and Builds can help you, if you cant beat something your EQ, lvl are weak or your build is bad, not because you dont have skill, only because of stupid Numbers.

Devil May Cry series
Ninja Gaiden series
Dark Messiah
These are games where you can beat everything on perfect if you are a very good player at this and you are concentrated. Defense,dodges control and good attack timing.

Edited March 16, 2015 by IfritKajiTora

[Llyssa]

1: there's a massive update coming in like 3 days.

2: by the statistics, the game has been gaining players constantly, with considerable growth month after month. You can't really consider "constant growth" a "slow death".

 

EDIT:  3: Giving vague, abstract, subjective notions is completely useless. If you have specific thoughts, go for it. However, things like "The weight of a 1,000 cut corners" is mediocre poetic flare, not meaningful feedback.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Llyssa

[VKhaun]

Archwing only seems separate because they rushed it out without proper transitions. It was originally supposed to mesh with regular gameplay.

 

Both the upcoming J3 fight (Archwing with WF gameplay inside the boss) and the upcoming underwater tileset (WF gameplay with Sharkwing sections under the water) seem to imply a promise that the game is coming full circle back to transitions between regular WF and regular Archwing sections. If they both go well I'm sure we'll see regular missions start melding with space a lot better and a lot more often.

[XAvICoreZ]

No matter what the game produces or innovates or whatever integrates... this game is insanly UNIQUE, FUN AND IS JUST THE BEGINNING!!! 

[letir]

I'm agree, especially with "gameplay" and "game modes" part.

[direcyphre]

Yet another person who believes there are only a handful of people working on Warframe as a whole, as opposed to the entirety of a game development team with fully delegated responsibilities in its continuous advancement.

[-FV-Metheria]

Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid.

I hate games where you can't beat something at perfect because this is how game is maded. Just like Diablo games, there are no guard and no dodges only EQ, Lvl and Builds can help you, if you cant beat something your EQ, lvl are weak or your build is bad, not because you dont have skill, only because of stupid Numbers.

Devil May Cry series

Ninja Gaiden series

Dark Messiah

These are games where you can beat everything on perfect if you are a very good player at this and you are concentrated. Defense,dodges control and good attack timing.

Yes, ignore the fact we have shields which protect the health that can't regenerate normally.

[nekrojiji]

1) Warframe

 

2) Archwing

 

3) PvP

 

*arcade games

 

I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam.  The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same.  This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it.  Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus.

 

 

I agree with you ..... I have played this game since the change from U6 to U7 and it always changed in a good way (except for the curent PvP.... that sucks).....

 

I'm hoping that what the devs continuously say on the stream will sometime be put into the game - Missions to link normal mode and archwing mode and the PvP sindicate rewards -

I can't wait for the lore on Simeris.... giving that I heard something about a group of tenno that opose the Lotus

 

I still hold my hopes up!

Edited March 16, 2015 by nekrojiji

[Homage]

1: there's a massive update coming in like 3 days.

2: by the statistics, the game has been gaining players constantly, with considerable growth month after month. You can't really consider "constant growth" a "slow death".

 

EDIT:  3: Giving vague, abstract, subjective notions is completely useless. If you have specific thoughts, go for it. However, things like "The weight of a 1,000 cut corners" is mediocre poetic flare, not meaningful feedback.

Digital Extreams artical "Building Warframe: Warframes, mods and weapons in pvp 2.0" (https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20) mentions restrictinig mods and pvp mods.  This means PvP will exist in its own bubble effectively making it its own game.  I get why they did it, to reduce variables.  And just like in math simplifying an equation can make it easier to solve. But in this case dividing the game into smaller games is not a solution, but a symptom of the underlying problem.  Poor ability and mod design.  It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation.

[bluntpuffer]

-

Edited March 16, 2015 by bluntpuffer

[Vicious_Raptor]

Digital Extreams artical "Building Warframe: Warframes, mods and weapons in pvp 2.0" (https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20) mentions restrictinig mods and pvp mods.  This means PvP will exist in its own bubble effectively making it its own game.  I get why they did it, to reduce variables.  And just like in math simplifying an equation can make it easier to solve. But in this case dividing the game into smaller games is not a solution, but a symptom of the underlying problem.  Poor ability and mod design.  It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation.[/size]

They are removing some mods but adding more pvp specific mods, in case you missed that part. They're not reducing variability, they're trying to increase it (Handspring in a build? Where have you ever seen it?!) and to balance the game. I, like many others, love what the devs are coming up with, especially for PVP, as it's gonna be fun, rewarding and, most of all, balanced.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Gameplay quality is sh*t, because even if you are a master player, you still get damage, because in this game you can't avoid all bullets etc which is stupid.

Have you heard of Limbo? With that, you can dodge reality itself.

[jwya]

Poor ability and mod design. It needs to be addressed before more content piles up on this already cracking foundation.[/size]

(And something by IfritKajiTora, sorry I fail at quoting)

TLDR: too late. des already done that, its gonn be tough to u turn be it for de or for older players.

Maybe u should try to incorporate more skills in ur own gameplay? Doesn't work BY ITSELF =/= redundant. For the rng part, just pray hard.

Tldr end

One of their original ideals was that every weapon and frame be equal in weight, differing only in playing styles (I.e. rhino as a "credit to team" tank, sicarus as a heavy burst pistol etc). Not impossible - TF2 demonstrated that by using stat changes on the same root weapon to fit different styles (I.e. degreaser vs backburner - sorry for those without context knowledge.

(GENERALIZATION ALERT) But the possible impetus of the current problems would be that it is MPVE - you're fighting hordes of dumbed down enemies, not (potentially) skilful opponents. Which means that progression is easily done by advancing ur equipment to fight enemies that consume more and more steroids, since it's difficult to constantly produce novel enemies and situations as compared to more dynamic PVP battlegrounds. (This comes only from personal experience, so please give counter examples/ cases in a civilized manner. Neither me nor the forum community enjoys toxicity)

Which leads to the problems OP pointed out - since the best way to keep players is to introduce content that requires effort, older players have the benefit of prior experience and playtime to help them, newer players end up swamped by content to grind, and p2p players end up confused even with good equips. The privileged storm through new content, new/ disadvantaged/ etc players follow their example to catch up and viola. Thus, press 4 to win/ pew pew to win.

Consequentially, revamping warframe to suit skill-based progression isn't feasible imo. Even if DE can introduce new skill-based content quickly enough without bugs, there's gonna be an outroar. Effort-/Time-/Money-resultant benefits are just gonna get thrown out the window, if not gradually then suddenly. People are gonna lose looaads of stuff, and ur gonna have only so little players left. Older players should remember the reactions when dmg 2.0 demolished acrid and flux and etc (for newer players: they're THE god-tier weapons of the past)

Conclusion: Even if a sizeable portion of the community wants skill based gameplay to take precedence, either DE is gonna work their &#! off to deliver too little "more skills needed" content too slowly, or we're gonna lose so many players Warframe becomes single player. I'd support the idea if the result doesnt become that baf, or create a separate caste system based on skills rather than equipment.

Suggestion: a bottom-up approach.

Grinding is too hard? Get ur friends, fraternity, whatever. Grind comfortably. Enjoy the process, not the end. If its just impossible to enjoy the grinding, do u really need to get that scindo prime or soma prime?

Too much "press 4/ pew pew to win"? Try incorporating skills in ur own gameplay. Strafe through corpus shots to feed them shotgun rounds, or outwit that scorch with your pistol. If enemy power creeping is restricting skill gameplay and thus enjoyment, then go to a friendlier area.

The common point is the presence of a non-toxic, helpful community: once that is present, the game becomes that much easier to enjoy. Of course, the assumption that players already have a baseline variety of quality mods/ equips (I.e. vitality vs tranquil fortitude) is in effect- coz if they dont, they have forementioned helpful community to help out. (GENERALIZATION ALERT) Skills alone are not enough to progress against tougher levels - which I dont find a problem here. If u were to adopt a hardlined approach of "MLG360NoScope only or gtfo" then I believe other games (I.e. those IfritKajiTora listed) would be better for u. Call that dissing, but if you really dont want to play warframe because content- based progression is still inevitable, do you need to prolong ur dissatisfaction for a game?

But just as wealth should neither be ignored nor be the sole reason for living, content progression doesnt need to be the be-all-end-all. A healthy blend of both would be ideal, even if the goldilocks zone is vague.

EDIT: changed "tf2" to "those IfritKajiTora listed"

Edited March 16, 2015 by jwya

[(PSN)WetPollito]

i love this game, and i love every update.

[egregiousRac]

-snip-

 

DE has two problems, which go hand in hand:

1) Rushing content out the door - Their business model relies on getting as much content to the players as fast as possible. This means reducing the complexity of designs to get things out on time.

2) A complete aversion to maths - This is where the issues started. They just throw random numbers on things that sound right and call it a day. This is how we got the Soma, a weapon with terrible base damage that is ridiculously powerful, because without multiplying the numbers out it sounded reasonable. Once we had things like that, attempting to make weapons of similar power has given even more ridiculous guns.

 

DE never seems to really look at the big scope. Before Damage 2.0, for example, many of the better weapons had pretty bad stats, but ignored armor or had stacking DoT. DE took away the things that made these weapons great, but left their stats bad, turning peoples favourite guns into worthless fodder. When they make a major system change they need to go back and fix the rest of the content to work with it, but they don't because they want to get it out as quickly as possible.

 

I don't think that rebalancing all of the content to have less of a power curve would lose too many players, but it would take more time than they seem to want to spend. This means that the game will never actually be in a state that feels well designed.

[Darkmoone1]

I'd agree with you if the 3 modes were left alone, but fact of the matter is that:

 

1) PvP is getting overhauled so it's level of quality is unknown.

2) Archwing was released as a bare-bones mode on purpose with improvements, changes, and addition being added in time.
3) Regular mode has seen better days since it was first playable(More tile-sets, more enemy variation, additional weapon variation, Melee 2.0, etc etc.) 

 

 

The only real problem I see from what you list in the post is warframe "press 4 to win" and even then it does not destroy the regular mode as much as you would expect it to. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Correct. It's gone from one mediocre game, to three mediocre games.

 

And I like arcade games :(

 

Yet another person who believes there are only a handful of people working on Warframe as a whole, as opposed to the entirety of a game development team with fully delegated responsibilities in its continuous advancement.

 

Has the WF team ever revealed who specifically works on what, outside of its figureheads like Scott and Co.? From what I understand, the teams working on these projects are actually quite small. I feel sorry for them if so.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Noble_Cactus

[vaugahn]

It's not like PvP is something new. PvP has been around for ages, it's just been terrible. Doesn't the fact that they're putting in effort to make those things you listed not terrible kind of nullify your point?

[Spindle99]

1) Warframe

 

2) Archwing

 

3) PvP

 

*arcade games

 

I'll be playing Warframe till the servers go down, though my friends could care less about Warframe. The game looks great artistically the problem is gameplay quality. One shot O rama, press 4 to win, archwing melee spam.  The myriad of game modes are saturated with the so-so quality of gameplay design. It is clear rather than taking on the tuff and boring problems DE have decided to make more of the same.  This does not improve the experience. It will not grow the game. You guys are treading water. And that makes me sad. Not recognizing the evident mistakes and flaws, not learning from the past, and shedding the things that hold it back will bleed Warframe out. The game won't die from a single wrong decision, in an epic fire ball. It will bleed out slowly, emaciated, crippled, forgotten. The weight of a 1,000 cut corners, ruff tie ups, exhausting it and the people who care about it.  Now is the time to prevent such an end! Before the mediocrity caches up to it. You guys can break through to a better level of gameplay! But you need to focus.

 

I think you're too close to the game to realise every single game that exists has big issues people complain about, none are perfect and also variety isn't a bad thing.  Compared to most any other game this one is pretty high on the scale, it is one of the better titles.  You agree with that or you would not be here.

 

If it didnt' have archwing and pvp you or someone else would complain abotu lack of variety or whatever else.  I personally like Archwing (i needs a lot of work but the base of it is good).

 

Also you gotta keep in mind that they have different teams working on each part of the game.  They have an archwing team, a pvp team, a raid team etc

 

I've played a mountain of online games long-term and they all have players like you spouting these same kinds of arguments (different issues but same idea). 

Edited March 16, 2015 by Spindle99

[Gelkor]

It's not like PvP is something new. PvP has been around for ages, it's just been terrible. Doesn't the fact that they're putting in effort to make those things you listed not terrible kind of nullify your point?

 

It's kinda amusing the amount of people who have been posting recently complaining about "OMG they are gonna make PVP now and it's gonna ruin the game." Completely unaware that we've had PVP for quite some time.

[rockscl]

 

 

xD, let me be fair here, and highlight what is good from warframe gameplay.

 

Archwing is very enjoyable at least to me, i dont think its mediocre, i just think it needs more mission modes and nodes, i even feel like DE has applied there all his learnings about making balanced stuff 

 

As for normal missions, pick some semi ranked, potentially powerful arsenal, get it to some t3 mission, and voila, you have a great experience, why?, mainly because p42w is not an option, now, with this environment in mind:

 

- the shooter/rpg mechanics and the bottle necks are great experiences

- team work is right there, you and your teammates need each other for a lot more than spamming radials, i even find pressing number 1 a need in these missions!

- parkour can actually save my arse

- the environment is important, its more than a box where i must find the center and press 4

- each enemy has a meaning that is not obscured by a huge radial skill making them just numbers raising far in the other side of the map

- etc

Edited March 16, 2015 by rockscl