De Has Put Themselves In A Tough Spot With Nyx And Loki

[Mazrim]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS. CHAOS IS CHEAPER AND HAS MORE RANGE EVEN WITH LOKI'S SWINDLE HELMET ON. Holy S#&$ it's like people don't even use chaos. Chaos does not need a buff the augment might need one though.

You're adorbs for thinking Energy matters in the day of team energy restores. Energy costs are not a balancing mechanic. Not when I can, at mission start, arbitrarily gain 400 energy.

 

Nyx needs to go back to the drawing board. Her kit is so awfully bad that there's no reason to take a Nyx. Mind Control is so situationally mediocre, its great. Psychic Bolts is uhm... Psychic Bolts, yeah. Chaos is a garbage tier ability and Absorb got nerfhammered for reasons possibly nobody understands. 

[climatiseur]

Are you really pretending smite doesn't have a 100% proc chance, seek out and spread to other enemies, and have basically no cast time and reckoning doesn't produce health orbs and do damage? That's sad.

 

If you have to selectively ignore things, I don't think you should be talking about truth. But, hey, it's the dogmatism I expected.

 

Here are the facts:

Radial disarm disarms enemies. Sacrificing another mod to put on the augment makes it cause confusion. This confusion effect does not have a timer and will end without warning. Irradiated enemies will still attack players and objectives. It costs 100 energy unmodded and has a long cast time. Corrupt efficiency mods hurt the duration and duration mods (which are required for loki's invisibility and survivabilty) hurt the range. It can be recast while active, but spamming it is not advisable due to the cost.

 

Chaos has greater base range and lower base energy cost, so mods that improve those things are more effective. It has faster cast time than radial disarm. It has a much greater base duration, so efficiency mods hurt it less. It does not disarm enemies, which allows them to do full damage to each other. Enemies under its effect get increased threat levels so uneffected enemies are more likely to attack them (I did not find any evidence of radiation increasing threat level). Chaos does have a timer that indicates exactly when it will run out so it can be recast without spamming.Maxing duration isn't advisable so there is no reason not to max efficiency. Chaos works without sacrificing a mod slot.

 

Smite has a 100% radiation proc, takes no duration penalties, spreads between enemies and efficiency makes it nearly free to cast.  It does damage, knocks down enemies, and can be spammed. Reckoning does the same (except for spreading) and also produces health orbs. It knocks down all the enemies it grabs, blinds enemies in a radius around them, regardless of them being picked up by it or not, which can be expanded with range mods. The range is more limited, but comes with healing, damage and bonus CC.

 

Three frames can cause a similar status effect, each has some powerful aspects and some drawbacks. One disables enemies, one has greater range with lower cost and faster cast, one provides healing and damage.

 

Also, your radial disarm suggestion just makes it unusable or useless. I'm sure that was the intent, but I feel like I shouldn't go without mentioning that it's terrible.

 

 

 

Your OP doesn't need to be disproven because it has no points. It makes a claim and fails to prove it.

 

 

-.- like, before it actually came out and was leaked through the design council, I already pointed out the problem, yet, it's still implemented. But no, the duration even halfed.

 

-Irradiation disarm is smaller 

* only 5 m smaller initially, and Loki doesn't suffer from overextended, so it's more probably at the end ID is actually bigger than Chaos. On top of that, it is recastable, so it actually has no range limit if you think about it.

 

- Irradiation disarm last shorter

* the radiation scales with duration which can actually be longer than short duration build Chaos. While long duration build Chaos cannot affect more newly enemies

 

-Irradiation disarm cost more energy 

* a good 25 energy which shrinks when nearly everyone mod in efficiency. And energy pad is a thing. This issue is barely noticed.

 

-Nyx has other abilities, which is used differently than Loki.

* Okay. Her 1st  basically provides a smaller chaos; her 2nd with augment provide maximum 6 enemies stuns; her 4th draw aggros, distract and provide cover to teammate. BUT you can just disarm hell all the enemies in around 40m and place a decoy which provide a much better security and effect. Besides, you are not locked in place and have you energy eaten like waterfalls.

 

Conclusion: 1 irradiation disarm does all the stuffs Nyx provides. with less effort and absolutely 0 drawbacks. You can press 4 every 5 seconds and do a catwalk in anywhere happily.

 

 

Disarm is a benefit on top of confusion because it provide much more security. Security is the key.

 

Smite sure has 100% radiation proc, but the affected target is limited, you will have to cast it multiple times, furthermore, they are not gurantee hit the enemies you want. That's what called a DRAWBACK.  You can spam many smites as you want, BUT, the numbers of affected are limited, the hit is not guranteed.

 

Radiation of Oberon do not scale with duration build, besides, his 4th 's 15m size is too large difference compare to Chaos, and he cannot mod in overextended freely as I mentioned. Not like Loki,  I stated it already.

 

Besides, If you really read and think about my suggestion on the radial disarm buff, please provide opinions on how it would make it useless.

 

It actually gives it more tactical use, more synergies on Loki's kit and give his name a justice. Guranteed, it won't be perfect but it can be an inspiration.

 

Those are the quality Loki (actually every frame, but since they advertise him this way ) should have possessed.

 

I really want to ask, what drawback do you feel when you use radial disarm (and ID) ? What aspects in it make you think it is tactical to use? 

If Radial disarm can become more tactical, and make the user feel the fulfillment of being tactical and smart upon using, without overshadowing (and hi-jack) other frames' themed signature ability, wouldn't it be a win-win situation ? Why would people don't want it to happen?

 

My tones might be blunt before. Sorry. But I really don't want this to turn to a fight between 2 groups of people and end up not discussing anything. 

 

Disclaimer, as it happened before: I don't have a loki in my account. I played it on my friends account, play with him together and see it in action in game. Coz some people think that cancel any credibility of any of my suggestion, and dig it out to try to prove it altogether not providing counter-arguments. If you think so, I'll save your time.

[Kruglov]

New Chaos augment:

 

 

Chaotic Fumble

 

 

Enemies who are affected by chaos are knocked down and disarmed.

 

Voila.

Not Nyx and Loki can be 2 sides of the same coin.

And Nyx finally gets a good augment.

[RealPandemonium]

Yeah, they gave players stupidly powerful abilities and now they won't accept anything less.

[TwevOWNED]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS. CHAOS IS CHEAPER AND HAS MORE RANGE EVEN WITH LOKI'S SWINDLE HELMET ON. Holy S#&$ it's like people don't even use chaos. Chaos does not need a buff the augment might need one though.

More range doesn't mean jack when you can't recast. Allowing the ability to be used while still active, say it removes chaos from those that still have it previously and places it on them again if they are in the area, would go leaps and bounds to help her power. Right now, if you spec for duration at all, you risk one enemy with chaos remaining on them never moving which means your most powerful move is useless.

[EchoesOfRain]

A few things comes in mind:

 

* Make Chaos cancellable (I.e click again to remove previously affected targets, so you can cast it again). That way, it is recastable whenever you want, but you can't spam it all over the map at once, you can just affect ONE area at a time. That's better than making it purely recastable, which definitely would be OP.

 

The only issue with making Chaos recastable at all is the stun. If you can just turn chaos off and activate it again, you'd have an easy stunlock. Essentially turning Nyx into Banshee.

 

Just let recasting chaos refresh the duration on already affected enemies, while stunning enemies that aren't already affected

[Naqel]

Nyx needs to go back to the drawing board.

 

I was with you on the first part, but this is a bit naive, don't you think?

 

Nyx isn't the problem, her being weaker than some other frames isn't the issue.

 

The issue is that DE is incompetent with game design: Not only do they fail to balance what they have properly, but also keep adding new elements that actively prevent them from balancing things in the future.

 

Unless DE suddenly decide to issue millions of platinum in refunds to players who would inevitably have to lose some of the things they bought/farmed/traded, in order to then start a ground up effort to address the horrible condition the game is in, changing Nyx, Loki, or any other symptom of the disease that afflicts warframe, and only got worse, since the days of early Mods 2.0.

[WolvenEdge]

Aren't many of the proc effects being looked at soon anyway? If Radiation gets its effect changed much at all, this issue will likely become moot. I honestly hope all the procs get something unique... I mean, right now fire is just a better version of electricity or slash, blast is just a better version of impact or ice, puncture is nigh useless... slash, blast, fire, and radiation seem to be about the only procs currently modded for at all. Don't get me wrong; I love my slash weapons, radiation I like mostly for the effect against armor and the cool visuals, and putting blast on a proc-cannon like the Glaxion is hilarious (Bowling anyone?)... but they all need to be useful in some way... and it would even fix many issues like this. -w-

 

Personally, just as a band-aid, I'm leaning in favor of the one fellow who suggested that radiation boost be moved to switch teleport instead, making the teleported target an effective decoy as well... and making it so that you can cause all the opponents you just aggro'd shoot their partner that you just switched with. Much more tactical than making everyone around you smack each other with sticks, as funny as that is.

[Mazrim]

I was with you on the first part, but this is a bit naive, don't you think?

 

Nyx isn't the problem, her being weaker than some other frames isn't the issue.

 

The issue is that DE is incompetent with game design: Not only do they fail to balance what they have properly, but also keep adding new elements that actively prevent them from balancing things in the future.

 

Unless DE suddenly decide to issue millions of platinum in refunds to players who would inevitably have to lose some of the things they bought/farmed/traded, in order to then start a ground up effort to address the horrible condition the game is in, changing Nyx, Loki, or any other symptom of the disease that afflicts warframe, and only got worse, since the days of early Mods 2.0.

Saying that DE is incompetent with game design is implying water is wet. But we've known that it was a pretty bad problem since... Well Mods 2.0.

[Mazrim]

Personally, just as a band-aid, I'm leaning in favor of the one fellow who suggested that radiation boost be moved to switch teleport instead, making the teleported target an effective decoy as well... and making it so that you can cause all the opponents you just aggro'd shoot their partner that you just switched with. Much more tactical than making everyone around you smack each other with sticks, as funny as that is.

Aaand that will be the day that every Loki drops Irradiating Teleport as enemies instantly retarget you and blow you away. Switch Teleport is a mobility skill, not an actual combat skill.

[WolvenEdge]

Aaand that will be the day that every Loki drops Irradiating Teleport as enemies instantly retarget you and blow you away. Switch Teleport is a mobility skill, not an actual combat skill.

 

Oh? And they don't do that already? Just because something is a 'mobility skill' doesn't mean you don't use it in combat to get out of tough situations... like being surrounded by enemies and switching to a position where you can take cover more easily? Again; tactical use of ability.

 

As for the complaint about drawing aggro, all DE has to do is fix that enemies panic and press the TENNO ALERT button when they bark their shins on a random rock, or hear a frog in the distance. I'm exaggerating of course, but... enemies press the alert button against us Tenno when they're actually being attacked by something else. Phobos as the prime example; sand skates. -w- I dislike the buggers because there's no such thing as stealth when if a Grineer takes damage from a hostile and isn't dead, regardless of if I'm the one damaging them, then every enemy three tiles in any direction knows exactly where I am for some odd reason. Here's hoping for Stealth 2.whatever sometime soon?

 

My biggest issue with SuperJump defenders, right there. Enemies retarget far too easily for a mobility (read 'escape') skill to be actually useful, when a parkour skill (like areal melee) will do the same AND redirect enemy aim for a few seconds after you use it, and is silent.

[Rhaenxys]

Making chaos recastable but only the initial stun is only applied to the newest affected enemies is a great start.

 

Absorb need changes, magnetic damage doesnt make any sense to nyx and is pretty pathetic to absorb 50k damage to deal much less to certain enemies, i pay for those 50k in energy comsuption...

 

Psychic bolts needs some kind of utility without the augment.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Its really simple, one lasts as long as the duration and if there is a single enemy that is still affected you cannot reuse the ability even if there 40 enemies barreling down on you. The other one can be spammed over and over and over until you run out of energy AND they get disarmed, permanently. This is not remotely close.

And there it is. The crux of the argument is clarified. LOKI, the most powerful frame in the game, just got ANOTHER boost, whereas other frames are becoming increasingly less effective as DE evolves enemy AI, game mechanics, and powers to counter them. Or they get nerfed.

The gap is widening.

I'm for Evolving other frames to be more effective and legitimize their place.

[Mazrim]

Oh? And they don't do that already? Just because something is a 'mobility skill' doesn't mean you don't use it in combat to get out of tough situations... like being surrounded by enemies and switching to a position where you can take cover more easily? Again; tactical use of ability.

.

Anything Switch Teleport can do, Invisibility does better.

[Oranji]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS. CHAOS IS CHEAPER AND HAS MORE RANGE EVEN WITH LOKI'S SWINDLE HELMET ON. Holy S#&$ it's like people don't even use chaos. Chaos does not need a buff the augment might need one though.

Yes Chaos is cheaper. However it does not:

- disarm

- instantly refreshes when cast again.

- not matter since people use E-pads all the time

- spin

- matter to Loki Prime's godly skills.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Oranji

[WolvenEdge]

Anything Switch Teleport can do, Invisibility does better.

 

Aaand adding an augment to Switch Teleport that gives it more use in and out of combat situations by making enemies kill each other in your wake, and thus giving Switch Teleport a place that Invisibility can't touch is thus a bad choice? I fail to see the logic here.

[-InV-igo95862]

Another advantage of Irradiating Disarm over Chaos is that it clumps up enemies making them easier targets to AoE or punch through .

[Azamagon]

The only issue with making Chaos recastable at all is the stun. If you can just turn chaos off and activate it again, you'd have an easy stunlock. Essentially turning Nyx into Banshee.

 

Just let recasting chaos refresh the duration on already affected enemies, while stunning enemies that aren't already affected

Well, Rhaenxys' idea is a good alternative:

 

Making chaos recastable but only the initial stun is only applied to the newest affected enemies is a great start.

 

Absorb need changes, magnetic damage doesnt make any sense to nyx and is pretty pathetic to absorb 50k damage to deal much less to certain enemies, i pay for those 50k in energy comsuption...

 

Psychic bolts needs some kind of utility without the augment.

Only problem with that Chaos change is that you could then Chaos all over the map, by just casting it in a few different places, making ALL enemies a non-threat. I consider the ability to chainstun enemies in one location a MUCH lesser problem than the ability to make all enemies on the entire map a non-threat.

Just consider this:

 

Chainstunning:

1) Drains your energy quite quickly

2) Requires you to stay put in one area, thus other areas with enemies are unlikely to be affected (i.e. they remain a threat)

3) You have to pay attention to the stun animations, when to recast it etc

 

Map-wide-chaos:

1) Requires that you run around a bit

 

See? Thus, I stick with my suggestion, it is the far lesser evil and requires more player input.

Besides, why is chainstunning them an issue? You are already putting them in Chaos-state, thus already occupied, chainstunning would be more against single targets, and for that you have Mind Control... Of course, it could be used for emergency CC for whatever reason, but making abilities reliable to do so, what's the problem with that, really?

 

-snip-

 

Personally, just as a band-aid, I'm leaning in favor of the one fellow who suggested that radiation boost be moved to switch teleport instead, making the teleported target an effective decoy as well... and making it so that you can cause all the opponents you just aggro'd shoot their partner that you just switched with. Much more tactical than making everyone around you smack each other with sticks, as funny as that is.

Thanks :)

It's far more interesting and engaging to have such an effect on Switch Teleport too, Irradiating Disarm just makes things far too easy, mainly due to being a very wide AoE AND being 100% recastable, on new and old enemies alike.

 

Anything Switch Teleport can do, Invisibility does better.

Ummm...

First of all, I suggested Switch Teleport to trigger a Radiation proc on your main target as a baseline change to it. Radiation and Invisbility do not do the same things at all.

Second of all, my Augment-suggestion for Switch Teleport would make it able to Radiation-proc several enemies, if you use it will (for example, WITH Invisibility to remove/reduce your aggro). How does Invisibility ever make enemies fight each other?

[Dragazer]

I love how people compare an augmented ultimate to a normal 3rd ability. All Nyx needs is for chaos to be recastable or for the augment to not shrink in radius.

[-CM-AbsoluteZero]

 

You don't have to remove irradiating disarm, nor nerf it. The true problem lies in the innate mechanics of radial disarm. But it is only when irradiating disarm exist, that make people notice how broken this ability is.

 

I'll once again quote my suggestion on how to buff radial disarm to make it justify for Lokis' name - tactical, trolls and for veterans, but not a mindless 4 spamming catwalk machine:

 

---

 

I'd suggest making the disarm comes in a slightly different mechanics - now Mesa's has the ability to jam enemies' weapons - maybe now Radial Disarm can be changed to jamming the range weapons of the surrounding enemies. After around 2  secs of them struggling with their weapons, they soon give up and use melee attack instead - something like how they struck you when you stand too close to them, so it's still technically a  disarm.

 

Meanwhile, it becomes an energy draining ability. eg. Initial cast cost 50, and certain amount per second draining afterwards. And now it can toggle out the jamming and enemies that are still alive can use there weapons again. Energy pad replenishing is disabled during the cast.

 

Now it becomes more strategic because the energy draining is somewhat a bigger drawback for the disarm. Loki can now jam the enemies, temporarily nullify dangerous target, take them out and toggle out the effect. The effect becomes a bit more limited and is more tactical (so more interesting) to use.

 

It can also go a bit further, that the energy-drain is depending on how many enemies are affected. Eg. 1-5 enemies will drain 5 energy per sec; 6 - 15 will drain 10 / sec; and 16 - 30 will drain 15 / sec. and so on. Then, it become more versatile and benefit from more varieties, because Loki can benefit from Narrow-minded, to narrow down the affect range, so the energy drain is minimized. Then he can combine the use of Switch Teleport, to disarm the most prioritized target and take them out first, with the least cost it needs. It is more interesting and more tactical, providing more synergies with his other ability, while still allow rooms for players who like it to have a bigger radius of effects.

 

a sum up of it:

1. The disarm is not permanent, it becomes a toggle-able  energy draining ability.

2. During the cast, no energy is gained from energy pad. Pulling efficiency into a more crucial consideration while modding.

3. If energy-drain depends on the numbers of affected enemy, maxing range is no longer the go-to modding method as smaller range saves more energy.

4. Promote mindful game play - target prioritizing and positioning becomes factors in this ability.

5. More Synergy with Switch Teleport.  Encouraging using it more often other than mobility tool, resulting in a more tactical and interesting gameplay which gives the name of Loki a justice.

6. ID and Chaos now really have different usages compare to each other. But not 1 better than the other.

 

 

It might need to add that, enemies affected by the jamming will have a immune duraion on it to prevent constant spamming making them perma-stunned.

 

As for irradiating disarm, make it only pertains as long as the enemies is disarmed, scaling with duration just like how it does now. But, if it is toggled out earlier, the radiation effect will be dismissed. It's to prevent constant spamming, once again.

 

NTY I'm not interested in any of your suggestions until you actually play Loki. Not to mention, but I don't think you know what "buff" really means.

Edited May 30, 2015 by -CM-AbsoluteZero

[FelisImpurrator]

Interesting thing about this, related to the common argument that Loki is encroaching on Nyx's territory with ID - true, but at least in theory, Nyx has already been doing the same with Pacifying Bolts. That really shouldn't be the issue.

 

The problem, as far as I can tell, stems from the way RD/ID stacks up against PB. Radial Disarm is useful without the augment and even more so with it. Psychic Bolts is utterly useless without the augment and only marginally useful with it.

 

Going by that, I think maybe this question of balancing the two frames in relation to each other isn't just about "Irradiating Disarm versus Chaos" - it's also about "Irradiating Disarm versus Pacifying Bolts" and their base abilities' viability.

[Luxpluff]

The only issue with making Chaos recastable at all is the stun. If you can just turn chaos off and activate it again, you'd have an easy stunlock. Essentially turning Nyx into Banshee.

 

Just let recasting chaos refresh the duration on already affected enemies, while stunning enemies that aren't already affected

 

To solve this and allow Chaos to be recastable (which I strongly support), make it work like Terrify does now: it will prioritize unaffected targets over affected targets. (if you are really afraid of the possible perma-stun, just make it so Chaos effects don't stack on a single enemy, i. e., if an enemy is affected by it, it won't enter Chaos state again until it wears off. Alternately, make it so Chaos can only stun enemies that are not under its effect upon casting.)

[Dillon_J]

Got an idea for a nyx augment that might help.  it is for Mind Control - if enemy being mind controlled is killed before the effect ends it spreads to all nearby enemies within 10 meters for half the duration of mind control. maybe even allow it to spread after the initial host spreads it.   (maybe even make the spread effect just be chaos effect and not mind control upon spreading to others)

Edited May 30, 2015 by Dillon_J

[TwevOWNED]

I love how people compare an augmented ultimate to a normal 3rd ability. All Nyx needs is for chaos to be recastable or for the augment to not shrink in radius.

Why does this point keep getting made? Nyx is from the time where fourth ability didn't mean best ability. Most Nyx builds ended up dropping Absorb and Bolts to just focus on Chaos and the occasional mind control. This isn't a moba. The only thing fourth ability means is that it is in the fourth slot, not that it is the most powerful skill.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Kinda points out at the lack of imagination of DE.

 

Nyx is a psychic frame. Have her actually manipulate and controll enemies. Loki is a trickster.

 

Nyx 4th ability, permanent mind control over AOE. Basiically,on small area, have enemies permanently join you.

3, have her actually cause hysteria, making enemy units kill themselves or jump off ledges.

2 Telekinesis. Take one or a several units and throw them into walls or heights and into their certain deaths.

1 Meditate. In this state, you cannot attack but you heal and restore energy. In this state, you are immune to damage.

Edited May 30, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer