So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[motorfirebox]

The Orokin didnt create the Sentients, the crewman witnessed his judgement of a machine that the corpus crewman helped develop. The Orokin executors felt the corpus broke their laws in creating a machine from Sentient biology or biotech. Lotus is a sentient and a she is a nemesis of the Orokin, she fooled the Orokin and then swayed the Tenno to destroy the executors and leadership.

That's not correct. There were two projects discussed in the Crewman imprint: the Crewman project, which was presumably some kind of genetic experiment; and the unnamed project that Archimedian Perintol* successfully appealed.

 

There is very strong evidence that Perintol's project evolved into the Sentient. Here is what I've gathered:

-First, the shape. Perintol's machine is described as "star shaped", which roughly matches the imagery of the Sentinent we've seen so far. Best example I've been able to find is the Old War wreckage that Lotus has you scan during the Natah quest. You can look at it here and see that it's roughly circular with spoke sticking out. Not the strongest evidence, but it's an indicator.

 

-Second, the fact that Perintol's machines were intended to to to "the Tau system". That's important, because in Mag Prime's codex entry, the fighting—presumably against the Sentient—is described as taking place around a blue star. Tau Centauri is a blue star.

 

-Third, the fact that Perintol's machines are described as finding the Void, and thus solar rail travel, to be poisonous. This is relevant because during the Natah quest, it was revealed that the Sentient who made the trip to the Origin system "crossed the gap, wombs in ruin". That would make sense if the Sentient found solar rail travel, through the Void, to be poisonous.

 

-Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, the fact that Perintol's machines 'learned' to resist the damage that was done to them. That's very much in keeping with what's been revealed about the Sentient—"When one dies, the others learn."

 

I think there was some other stuff, but it's past by bedtime and I can't remember. Teal deer version, there's very good evidence that the Orokin did indeed create the Sentient, or at least created the things that would become the Sentient.

 

 

*Perintol, Perrin Sequence? Could be a thing.

[EmptyDevil]

The Orokin didnt create the Sentients, the crewman witnessed his judgement of a machine that the corpus crewman helped develop. The Orokin executors felt the corpus broke their laws in creating a machine from Sentient biology or biotech. Lotus is a sentient and a she is a nemesis of the Orokin, she fooled the Orokin and then swayed the Tenno to destroy the executors and leadership.

 

Nope, wasn't a Corpus crewman and your interpretation of that entry is supported by very little fact. Absolutely no where does it say that thing was made from a Sentient. This was not after the Sentient's time but their origins. Not even sure why you're bringing up Lotus. She wasn't mentioned at all in the entry.

 

See below:

 

 

The context of "Corpus" is clearly different than what it would be for the current existing faction. It's used in the same context as in the Anti Moa imprint.

 

Crewman Imprint

 

Ballas turned his head as the judgement disc went suddenly dark. "An appeal comes at a price. Should you fail, you and your corpus will pay dearly."

 

Anti MOA Imprint

 

"What about your corpus, don't you miss them? Your father?" I say.

 

"Orokin didn't have parents like you do, it was done differently then." He takes a deep breath and turns to look at me. "Listen, the corpus who raised me are dead, do you know why they are dead?"

 

"Umpal is corpus to us, we can't abandon him." I shout.

 

You can just replace the word "corpus" with "family" for these.

 

 

As for the machine, it is both technology and biological. These pieces of text show how it is described as both:

 

 

Atop the cart was a motionless creature, no larger than a hand. Its body was symmetrical, star-shaped with a seamless, matte-black shell.

 

Two of the limbs tore off the frame revealing a glossy, gelatinous interior.

 

The creature moved, convulsed, the hard surface started undulating. In a moment the wound closed and the thing was whole again. Beside it another machine had grown from its severed parts.

 

[Mak_Gohae]

Good luck with the logistics for those who want to be on their own.

 

 

 

He doesn't think,  he knows.  He was there when the Tenno killed the Oorkin.  At least on his codex it seems to indicate that.  He was actually there in the Arena when the Tenno started the genocide.

 

Plus chances are after these thousands of years, he isn't even sane anymore.

 

The "lotus" part here is the key issue.

That's the truth that is going to set us free.

 

Um, he can still read, dude. They might be lower than modern-day human average, but they are clearly within human range.

 

several animals can do this as well.

 

Pretty sure i explained to you that Stalker knows we betrayed the Orokin by killing them. He still wouldn't forgive us or accept us if he knew of what Lotus is.

 

Stalker doesnt know this was a "Lotus" plan.

If we help him take down the person responsible he should be grateful.

Then after we kill "Lotus" we will go search for the Orokin that escape and bring them back to restore order.

[EmptyDevil]

Stalker doesnt know this was a "Lotus" plan.

If we help him take down the person responsible he should be grateful.

Then after we kill "Lotus" we will go search for the Orokin that escape and bring them back to restore order.

 

Should =/= would. He would just kill you, continue killing the rest of the Tenno, and then move on to hunting Lotus.

[Valafor]

Should =/= would. He would just kill you, continue killing the rest of the Tenno, and then move on to hunting Lotus.

 

No point in arguing with him anymore. How can you take someone seriously when they are pro-slavery, and justifies slavery by completely dehumanizing them?

[Leavith]

Well I say we just kill them all is simple....we let the invasion take over all the planets except for Pluto I like Pluto and we will turn Pluto into the Tenno safe haven infested kill everyone .since the infested cannot use ships they are pretty much stuck were we drop them off. And we'll we let the faction fight each other while we watch.

Infested are more likely to well win against both grineer and corpus.and once the infested have completed taking over a planet we get the red veil help and purge the planet........with all the Tenno working together we can purge planets.and I well I understand grineer and corpus can escape in ships but no matter they will never be powerful if they cannot gather resources to make more weapons or have stable facilities.

To be more fair infested are not so hard to manage for the Tenno.lets look at the fact we are extremely mobile a squad full of 8 Tenno can be dispatch I am sure Excalibur Ash Ember and nova can take care of killing the infested and vauban Loki frost and trinity can provide cc and support in managing while the Tenno & syndicate farm for resources simple as it looks.

Sure we might make a phorid or juggernaut here and their but I think we can handle it.

And the fact that the infested have no acces to the void and neither will the corpus or the grineer if they cannot use the gates then we can easily recover by our selfs or sleeping brothers .Then we purge

And with the enemy like grineer and corpus out of the way we won't have any need to listen to the lotus or tens hi and we can start our own civilization

And hey their are more pros in making the grineer slaves I mean I am not saying lets enslave all I am just saying grineer we really don't want to commit mass genocide with our own hands so why not put them to good use then their are cons letting them cause problems cause they are design to fight and be laborious.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Leavith

[TARINunit9]

What is this greater good?

"Lotus" hid the Tenno because she was greedy and wanted kids.

It's not like she stood up to the other sentient to fight back, she just didnt finish the last part of the plant and hoped everyone forgot about everything.

I think you're misinterpreting the lore here

The Tenno had kicked the everloving sh!t out of the Sentients. The few surviving Sentients couldn't actually fight back against the Tenno, so Natah was sent in to act as a backstabbing double-agent. Natah's job was to make the Tenno kill the Orokin and then each other because the Sentients couldn't kill the Tenno manually.

 

Thus, when Natah adopted the Tenno, she wasn't "hoping everyone would forget about everything". She was taking a gamble, banking on the Sentients surrendering because they were so weak and Natah had a full army of cryosleeping Tenno at her disposal. The gamble paid off, at least for a few hundred years or so

Edited September 6, 2015 by TARINunit9

[motorfirebox]

several animals can do this as well.

 

 

Neither parrots, nor apes, nor ants, nor kubrow, nor any other non-human example you can come up with can do things like engage in genetic engineering, pilot spaceships, plan and execute mining operations, or construct impregnable starships armed with superweapons powerful enough to wipe out Orokin-constructed space stations in a single shot.

 

Honestly, I think this is all I need to say. Any question about the sapience of the Grineer can be answered by quoting this post.

Edited September 6, 2015 by motorfirebox

[KozaTheShadow]

No point in arguing with him anymore. How can you take someone seriously when they are pro-slavery, and justifies slavery by completely dehumanizing them?

You know what would be cool? The choice in the U18 quest is indeed Stalker or Lotus, but a twist, you choose stalker you just see a cutscene where he impales your frame with a Hate and poofs off and well that's it for you. Heh. 

 

Well I say we just kill them all is simple....we let the invasion take over all the planets except for Pluto I like Pluto and we will turn Pluto into the Tenno safe haven infested kill everyone .since the infested cannot use ships they are pretty much stuck were we drop them off. And we'll we let the faction fight each other while we watch.

Infested are more likely to well win against both grineer and corpus.and once the infested have completed taking over a planet we get the red veil help and purge the planet........with all the Tenno working together we can purge planets.and I well I understand grineer and corpus can escape in ships but no matter they will never be powerful if they cannot gather resources to make more weapons or have stable facilities.

To be more fair infested are not so hard to manage for the Tenno.lets look at the fact we are extremely mobile a squad full of 8 Tenno can be dispatch I am sure Excalibur Ash Ember and nova can take care of killing the infested and vauban Loki frost and trinity can provide cc and support in managing while the Tenno & syndicate farm for resources simple as it looks.

Sure we might make a phorid or juggernaut here and their but I think we can handle it.

And the fact that the infested have no acces to the void and neither will the corpus or the grineer if they cannot use the gates then we can easily recover by our selfs or sleeping brothers .Then we purge

And with the enemy like grineer and corpus out of the way we won't have any need to listen to the lotus or tens hi and we can start our own civilization

And hey their are more pros in making the grineer slaves I mean I am not saying lets enslave all I am just saying grineer we really don't want to commit mass genocide with our own hands so why not put them to good use then their are cons letting them cause problems cause they are design to fight and be laborious.

You people actually scare me with how ok with slavery you are and how little you seem to value life. While yes this is a video game you are projecting yourself in some way nonetheless and...yeah, scary. 

[Leavith]

You know what would be cool? The choice in the U18 quest is indeed Stalker or Lotus, but a twist, you choose stalker you just see a cutscene where he impales your frame with a Hate and poofs off and well that's it for you. Heh.

You people actually scare me with how ok with slavery you are and how little you seem to value life. While yes this is a video game you are projecting yourself in some way nonetheless and...yeah, scary.

Well I do understand what your are saying but I feel slaving the grineer would be the best way to keep them in control without having to kill them all.

I mean let look at their personality

They aren't hey let's be friendly I mean corpus we can pay them they will be happy

But grineer are world conquest in their mind.i mean I don't want to kill all grineer specially if we can have good one like steel meridian ,so why not enslave them en let them earn their freedom with good action

But yeah on regards to the stalker your idea is a joke I feel like we should choose and the stalkers gives us a chance to prove our innocence by giving us missions.while we fight the stalker I have understood we never kill him we just defeat him and he leaves.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Leavith

[Mak_Gohae]

Besides which, there's nothing to say the Tenno didn't go along with Lotus willingly. The fact that she planned to betray the Tenno after the Tenno betrayed the Orokin doesn't negate the fact that the Tenno chose to betray the Orokin.

 

If the Tenno willingly killed the Orokin what's with all the cloak and dagger stuff on the Old War history, then?

This should all be out in the open.

"Lotus" should be like, "Hey, Tenno, remember when we killed the Orokin? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

 

 

 

Ya but we also know that the grineer can be smart... I mean they fly spaceships just fine...

 

And no we will never team up with stalker.

 

The discussion was about the original Grineer and not the current ones that had thousands of years of advancement under the Twin Queens.

 

And the Stalker was an example. We could have the Syndicate leaders as controllers.

But if i find out "Lotus" tricked us...... im helping the Stalker kill her.

[KozaTheShadow]

If the Tenno willingly killed the Orokin what's with all the cloak and dagger stuff on the Old War history, then?

This should all be out in the open.

"Lotus" should be like, "Hey, Tenno, remember when we killed the Orokin? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

 

But if i find out "Lotus" tricked us...... im helping the Stalker kill her.

Lotus nor the Tenno remember. We both lost our memories for the most part I think.

 

Stalker will never help you or allow you to help him. Your corpse on the floor is all he will settle for as far as we know currently and that probably won't change. 

[DrakoBluewing]

Honestly do any of you think the Orokin were the good guys? Look the syndicates are all the evidence we need. All the evidence we need to porve that Grineer are not all the same, some of them are intelligent and compassionate, and deflect their army to protect civilians (Steel Meridian) and also syndicates prove that Corpus is more a mafia than a culture, they look only for monetary gain regardless of who they harm. (Perrin Sequence), not only that Darvo has pointed a few times that Corpus is corrupt.
Lotus commands us not to keep balance, but to stop the different factions from harming us. She sometimes allows us to side with enemy factions which can be reasoned with to stablish the possibility of a truce with them in the future. We fight the infested because nothing good comes from them, we fight the Grinner because they are xenophobes who will kill or enslave anything non Grineer based on their resentment for the Orokin who enslaved them, we fight the Corpus becuase they aspire to become tyrants just as the Orokin. Everywhere in the lore we see the Orokin were tyranical and abussive, they were not the good guys.
Yes, Lotus made the Tenno kill the Orokin, but why do you think she did that. She mentions that Natah was not always a Sentient, her former self was not always a Sentient. She had the perspective of all sides. The Tenno listened to her because they (we as players) considered her reasons to kill the Orokin as fair. Not to mention the Orokin held almost any other faction as slaves, specially the Grineer who were their menial workers before the uprising. She betrayed the Sentients, and she betrayed the Orokin. She just wanted the civilians to be free and safe. And that is why interaction with civilians is rare, to prevent them to be in the crossfire between the different factions.
Of Lotus betrayed Steel Meridian, New Loka, or Perrin Sequence, I would believe she is the enemy, but she is not. That is why she allows Teshin to stay in the relays even though they don't get along wiht each other. Maybe she only cares about the Tenno.
As far as we know, the Orokin would have destroyed the Tenno once they won too. I mean, te Tenno were the result of their unethical practices and were powerful enough to destroy them. The Orokin were never friends of the Tenno, they just used them. The only friends the Tenno ever had were the civilians who saw them as heroes and Lotus/Natah who saw them as lost children, and they were lost children indeed, children put in a starship and turned into killing machines when all other killing machines went out of control.
Anyone who opposes the Lotus or says the Grineer are subhuman is just mistaken or downright evil. Yes, I know many would feel confused by Lotus being a Sentient, but we can be sure she is on our side, the side of the civilians.

Stalker is a deranged psycho who idealized the Orokin to the point of being unable to see thier faults.

Edited September 7, 2015 by DrakoBluewing

[motorfirebox]

 

If the Tenno willingly killed the Orokin what's with all the cloak and dagger stuff on the Old War history, then?

This should all be out in the open.

"Lotus" should be like, "Hey, Tenno, remember when we killed the Orokin? HAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

Lotus's memories have been corrupted as well. As for why the Lotus hasn't revealed everything she knows... maybe the Tenno just haven't asked!

 

 

 

The discussion was about the original Grineer and not the current ones that had thousands of years of advancement under the Twin Queens.

...Who were smart enough to use complex tools, voice abstract concepts such as threats, and understand when someone is trying to trick them. Give it up, guy, the Grineer were and are sapient, and enslaving them was slavery.

[(PSN)awesomelaw128]

Really, more Grakata.... 

YES WE NEED THREE GRAKATA

[immolator1001]

The discussion was about the original Grineer and not the current ones that had thousands of years of advancement under the Twin Queens.

Well some of the evidence given was of current grineer. And wouldn't the older grineer be better since they had less genetic degradation?

[Lightsmith]

This is about the Natah quest so dont read on if you havent done it.

 

 

 

 

 

So good ol' Stalker telling us to chill with all the killing that "Lotus" was sending us to do was right all along!

 

I think it's time for DE to let us pick sides here because i dont know about you people but.... i dont want some lady with baby issues waving keys in front of me so she could feel better about herself.

 

 

After ........ getting equinox i dont think i will kill any more bosses "Lotus" sends me to kill.

And i say after because i didnt do the quest right away.

 

So we need some "The Stalker was right" T-shirts on the merch store.

We need new mission controllers.

And we need a mission where like the G-dilemma where people get to break from the "Lotus."

That event will be some Tenno attacking "Lotus" home base attempting to kill her and some defending.

Please dont give the defending sides the better weapons, DE.

This should be the FIRST totally even contest.

The Stalker Army gets the Stalker Grakata (wraith?) and the Lotus Faithful get the Dex Grakata.

You know the Stalker wants to kill us, the Tenno, If you go up to him and say I hate her too, he'll still kill you the same.

 

To my knowledge we don't know who created Lotus and who gave her orders to kill us. Honestly I think it was the Orokin.

Orokin Created the Infested

Orokin Created the Sentients

Orokin experimented on children

Orokin enslaved the Grineer

Orokin used mind control

*My opinion, Orokin tasked Lotus to kill us.

 

They seem like friendly fellows.

 

Also, why Grak, because we don't have enough variants already? Its not even a Tenno / Orokin weapon.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Lightsmith

[motorfirebox]

To my knowledge we don't know who created Lotus and who gave her orders to kill us. Honestly I think it was the Orokin.

*My opinion, Orokin tasked Lotus to kill us.

Eh? We do know, it was...

the Sentient

Edited September 7, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Morec0]

-Natah Spoilers-

 

Might want to spoiler warning that, in case he hasn't played Natah.

[motorfirebox]

Might want to spoiler warning that, in case he hasn't played Natah.

I figured he wouldn't know about the order to kill the Tenno unless he'd played it, but spoilered just to be safe.

[Mak_Gohae]

Gotta agree here, sapience defines slavery in my eyes.

 

Then humans will always be slavers cause there are bunch of animals that we use now that have the same level of intelligence as a the standard Grineer.

 

In order:

 

1) Yes, her intentions were selfish, no denying that, but overall they played into the greater good of the system - the destruction Orokin led to the unfortunate rise of the Twin Queens, which led to things as they are. The Lotus' selfish action to keep the Tenno alive so she could have children ensured that we'd be able to wake up and fight against the Grineer. Did the fall of the Orokin ALSO create that problem in the first place? Yes, but as everyone else has said the Orokin deserved it for their rampant lack of ethics.

 

As for the reason for cryosleep, I think it had to do more with hiding us away from the Sentients, making it look like "All is silent and calm" so it seemed like the final sequence was complete and no Sentients would come looking for her or her "children".

 

 

So by your words... nothing good came from it.

 

2) It is a differing of opinions. We'll see how The Second Dream plays out in regards to that - but, either way, I stand by my "for the great good" view above.

 

Above you stated nothing good came of it.

Replacing one evil for another is nothing good.

 

3) If you can't tell the difference between a Kubrow and a Grineer you need your eyes checked - this is like not being able to tell the difference between a dog and a human being. I elaborate further below, for what applies to an ant applies to a Kubrow:

 

I didnt say i cant tell the difference i said there is little difference.

Remember that the Kubrow was ALSO made by the Orokin. Engineered to do certain specific jobs.

It looks like the Grineer were made to use the tools the Corpus previously used. This is why they are humanoid.

But they could be just a hairless Kubrow. Look at how we are getting the new Kavats, we are using Kubrow eggs and turning them into another creature. Who knows? Maybe we can actually make Grineer from those same eggs. Maybe we should take some Grineer genetic samples and inject them into Kub eggs and see what comes out.

 

4) The issue is worker ants are SAPIENT. They can't reason. They can't think logically or have desires. They're driven PURELY by instinct - that instinct being to serve the hive. Grineer have CLEARLY demonstrated they are above that, even in the Lancer Codex.

 

Incorrect. Ant can think, they can navigate (they have several methods), they can farm vegetation, animals, they even take in slaves from enemy hives.

 

Just because they dont think exactly like us it doesnt mean they cant think. Why would an Ant think about shoes when it has kick-&#! tarsal claws? Why would think about cars when they can walk real far? Why would they think about pulleys when they can lift several times their weight?

 

5) ... I don't even know how to respond to something this insane. They look human, they clearly are able to express themselves as humans can, they have been shown to have wants desires and the ability to think. How could they be any LESS human? And even if they aren't; does it matter? They're Sapient life, that means they are deserving of freedom.

 

If doing things that humans do classifies you as a human then we need to reclassify a whole mess of the creatures on this planet.

And we need to free a whole mess of others.

[Morec0]

<snip>

 

 

I'm done. When people start implying animals are the same as people is when I just know the conversation's a lost cause.

[Liminal]

Then humans will always be slavers cause there are bunch of animals that we use now that have the same level of intelligence as a the standard Grineer.

The lack of self-awareness in most of those animals means they are not as intelligent as standard Grineer.

 

And yeah, humans are slavers (no other species on Earth has ever engaged in slavery for obvious reasons), even nowadays with sex slaves and slave workers, child labor, etc.

[motorfirebox]

Then humans will always be slavers cause there are bunch of animals that we use now that have the same level of intelligence as a the standard Grineer.

You keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. Even the 'original' Grineer were significantly more intelligent than the most intelligent non-human animal, as I have already outlined:

 

 

...Who were smart enough to use complex tools, voice abstract concepts such as threats, and understand when someone is trying to trick them. Give it up, guy, the Grineer were and are sapient, and enslaving them was slavery.

 

[Leavith]

Well their is a point to be made here.

Now that we do have the grineer we understand that they a violent group of individual with compulsive disorder to kill all non grineer and to also take over the solar system and fix their genetic defect to be stronger.

Now i am all good with their hate and their genetic defect being fixed so they can be stronger but taking the solar system and actually taking out your hate and murdering on it not so much.

So this is mainly the reason why i am pro slavery against the grineer

The job they were design for it was their best job for them while i would love them to get paid for their hardwork is really cheaper to just give them good and vaccines in my opinion and is not like corpus or orokin will give money to sponsor a Grineer Rehab.

I mean if i were to start treating grineer as another human being then i am doing wrong by being once again as mass murderer 

and if we learn anything mass murdering a race of people only leads to stalker.

SO what do we suggest we do with the grineer if we cannot slave them because of the ethics we use in our present world instead of the ethics we use in the warframe world what then.I would suggest hey lets just murder them but they are huge and numbers and are a laborious group of people?

We give them job would be the best form of action but that doesn't change the fact they are bloodthirsty individual and i would say we imprisoned them and make them work for their freedom cause mass murder doesn't always solve everything.

In correlation this group of people are easy to di humanize cause their are just clones and really you can put an expiration date on them....You lancer you got 3 years then you will be replace with a more mechanical variant.And if you take their guns away ships away brainwashed them they will be happy working for the tenno cause