Valkyr's Hysteria Is Not Overpowered.

[Ziegrif]

I only play Valkyr atm but I will try give an unbiased opinion.

 

Yesterday I did a test in derelict survival to see how long I could keep hysteria on me until it got disabled. I tried a few times and the "record" ended up being about 13 minutes. 13 minutes of complete immunity to any form of damage and all I was doing was e-spamming or occasional ctrl-e... and I only had streamline and contiunity mods to add duration to it, I know there are other mods to increases it much further.

 

Now I dont care at all how it compares to other warframes abilities, lets ignore that. Think about any other game you have played, and now imagine running around immortal for 13+ minutes. My point is that its terrible design no matter what else is in the game, I dont understand at all how anyone can think otherwise. I could press 4 and leave a woodpecker handling e while I go do laundry and it probably wouldnt have done too bad if it was the right mission.. this ability needs some serious retweaking to make the valkyr more exciting to play aswell as adding a sense of risk when using it, right now I feel hysteria = cheatcode enabled.

 

If you can manage to get about 0.64- 0.96 energy usage on Hysteria you can very easily prolong it to last for hours on end.

 

Best I managed was 1 hour 40 minutes and 1 hour 20 minutes of nothing but Hysteria. Just depends on how many Energy orbs drop.

[tripletriple]

Her other 3 skills in no way rely upon Hysteria to function.

Hook me up with whatever you're smokin', my friend.

Seems you are good already considering I never said that it relies upon hysteria. I said they are made with to supplement hysteria. They are made with the thought she will be in Melee range. I think that is quite obvious with the small range of paralysis and Warcry being a melee buff.

Way to interpret your own meaning though.

[Ronyn]

Lifesteal? There is a melee mod for that anyways. Not like lifesteal is a huge boon when you're invulnerable. 

There is a mod yes, which costs extra energy to use and takes up a slot. If we are comparing things we have to apply the cost.

And the reason why lifesteal matters even when invulnerable is the recovery potential.

If you turn invulnerable when you have only 1 hit point left, you could end up still with only 1 hit point when invulnerability ends. 

Inherent lifesteal ensures that won't happen and does not cost extra energy.

 

As for amplifying damage. Wow a melee can finally FINALLY compete with ranged weps for damage. The first time in warframe and we want it nerfed. You could use tonkor with ironskin/blessing which is like...a billion times better than melee. 

Oh don't get me wrong. I have been complaining about the damage gap between ranged weapons and melee weapons for a very long time. That needs to be addressed. At the same time that is  a weapon balance problem, not so much a power balance problem. If there is going to be balance than Melee weapons and range weapons need to be equally strong before we even factor in how powers will effect them. 

 

Example: If some frame had a power that gave a huge bonus to shogun damage it would still not have made shotguns that great 6 months ago because they were weak overall. Now that shotguns have been buffed, that power would be a lot more potent. The weapon balance changed, the power stayed the same. And the game would be more balanced overall because of it.

 

Remember, this whole Valkyr discussion is only one subject out of many..... 

Point I'm making is this-

Old iron Skin was 15 seconds of invulnerability for 50 energy.

Old Hysteria was 30 seconds of invulnerability for 100 energy.

Cost to time ratio was even mathematically.

Old Iron skin had no extra limitation, no extra bonus.

Hysteria has the limitation of melee, plus lifesteal and now damage amplification.

Limitation to bonus ratio could be argued to be even or uneven depending on who you ask...

the thing is we cant simply use "hysteria is melee and iron skin can use guns" when making comparisons.

 

Note: No I do not want iron skin to be 15 seconds of invulnerability again. I'm just making a comparison.

 

 

Money first 

I'm certainly not going to claim you are wrong, I don't know either way.

That is just going outside of the realm of things I will openly discuss.

 

Thank you. People are all mad because some Valkyr player ALMOST outdamaged them with their no-brain-required Bro-ltor Prime.

Putting words in peoples mouths is not an argument.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

Seems you are good already considering I never said that it relies upon hysteria. I said they are made with to supplement hysteria. They are made with the thought she will be in Melee range. I think that is quite obvious with the small range of paralysis and Warcry being a melee buff.

Way to interpret your own meaning though.

Yes, her kit was designed with the thought that she would be in melee range.  But you said her kit was built around her being invulnerable.

That is not the same thing but you are speaking about them as though they are inherently linked. When, again, invulnerability is just one version of how to make a frame tough enough to survive in melee. Not the only option.

 

So when someone says "we should change her invulnerability" it does not mean they are trying to change her from being an awesome melee tank.

And when you say she is built around invulnerability....you have to explain how that particular mechanic is what her kit was built around..

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

I still find it funny people cry OP in a PvE game.

You totally right!  I cant understand this, jiz if one char s strong , make one.

Why ppl dont cry for nerf nekros or trinity? Maybe desecrate s op too , or energy vampire??? In my opinion all this cry babies for nerf s all but simple envy when you see other playing better , this game s co op, not a stupidy kill score competition , if the game s easy becouse some skills are strong , i have some suggestions.

One: remove all mods

Two: play demons souls

[rawr1254]

You totally right!  I cant understand this, jiz if one char s strong , make one.

Why ppl dont cry for nerf nekros or trinity? Maybe desecrate s op too , or energy vampire??? In my opinion all this cry babies for nerf s all but simple envy when you see other playing better , this game s co op, not a stupidy kill score competition , if the game s easy becouse some skills are strong , i have some suggestions.

One: remove all mods

Two: play demons souls

What gets me is they all whine to "nerf this and that" but when it gets nerfed it becomes "revert nerfs please de..."

[Kialandi]

Removing Hysteria's invulnerability doesn't make sense.

 

If you do that you would make the whole Valkyr inferior to Excalibur.

 

Why? Because Valkyr has to get close to the enemies. With Excalibur you can "snipe" them from afar.

[Kalenath]

why does anyone who has his brain on him want a PVE nerf, I wonder?

 

I don't know.

 

Why WOULDN'T we want the game to be even MORE unchallanging and boring than so many people already say it is?

 

So many people want it to be even more simple,... What is the POINT of beating something simple?

 

I guess some people want to play games that don't challenge them in any way.

 

I don't.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Kalenath

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

@Demon.King

 

to be fair a lot of stuff is OP in this game, and plenty of people want to balance around endless scaling instead of the core game.  So of course it's going to be a hot discussion.  You have to just accept we are coming at it from a place of concern for the game, and not doing it just to mess with people.

 

On topic:

 

The problem with a lot of frames is having endless access to energy.  Solve that issue and it won't matter if a power is OP because you won't be spamming it.  You'll be saving it for when 2 bombards and an Eximus Heavy Gunner run through a door and ruin your day.

[rawr1254]

 

 

It is mostly a bunch of different people are making their own threads. That is a sign that a lot or people share a similar concern. 

Remember that DE WANTS us to tell them our opinion of what should stay and what should be changed. 

Bug reports are awesome to give too. But don't discount other types of feedback.

 

So our options are between a frame that eventually breaks an aspect of the game many of us feel is integral to combat....

OR a frame that sucks no no matter how many mods you put into it? No way, there are levels of tuning in between those extremes.

Ok and I wanted to mod it how I wanted to mod it. Are you mad now that I'm playing the game how you don't want it to be played?

I am high MR, I am not bored with warframe though. Still my favorite game. Just looking for some tweaks here and there. As for doing something with my life..all that is going quite well thank you.

 

Most developers look to create a certain type of balance in CO OP PVE games.

It's usually related to ensuring that multiple different options are about the same level of power to give players more choice in how to approach things. This ties into creating a relatively consistent experience in the core combat model and encounter design.

So tell me. Per day, how many game-breaking Valkyrs do you run into? Cause I run into maybe 1-2 per day. Not a lot of variety there. Mhm. When I ply Valkyr it's my choice to sit in Hysteria or not. It all depends on the person. I personally do not like sitting in Hysteria. Am I gonna get mad if someone else does? No. Why? Cause idfc cause it's Co Op. I want to win, idc how I win. I'm not gonna win an award if I win with no mods or weapons equipped so why should I care if someone plays their own way.

For the record-I'm playing to enjoy the battle more than to get loot. Cause loot only matters if I am having fun while I play.

We don't all have the same motivation.

 The maps are not limited to your personal space. If someone is killing a lot of enemies in your general area go in another room and kill your own enemies. We don't need to nerf a frame because your more special than the other guy cause you're not.

Edited October 14, 2015 by rawr1254

[Ziegrif]

Not exactly.

We've basically been ploughing through the same points for about 20 or so pages.

SO I think it might be the same thread 5 or so times if we're generous.

Frankly I'm amazed we managed to stretch this topic this far.

 

Best idea that I saw was tying energy expenditure to dmg taken while in Hysteria mode.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ziegrif

[rawr1254]

Then we'll change to my initial standing. Every post in this thread disagreeing with the op is effectively equivalent to a separate nerf thread. But since it's against TOS to repeat existing topics they condense into a couple of topics. Remove the no duplicates rule and you would see the 10+ nerf threads.

 

This is not considering that '10' was a generalization, just like 80% of the statistics on the internet.

[Ronyn]

 

Ok and I wanted to mod it how I wanted to mod it. Are you mad now that I'm playing the game how you don't want it to be played?

 

 

 

 

 

So tell me. Per day, how many game-breaking Valkyrs do you run into? Cause I run into maybe 1-2 per day. Not a lot of variety there. Mhm. When I ply Valkyr it's my choice to sit in Hysteria or not. It all depends on the person. I personally do not like sitting in Hysteria. Am I gonna get mad if someone else does? No. Why? Cause idfc cause it's Co Op. I want to win, idc how I win. I'm not gonna win an award if I win with no mods or weapons equipped so why should I care if someone plays their own way.

 

 

 

 

 The maps are not limited to your personal space. If someone is killing a lot of enemies in your general area go in another room and kill your own enemies. We don't need to nerf a frame because your more special than the other guy cause you're not.

 

 

Alright now....This isn't about being "mad" at anything. lol.

This is a forum, this is about voicing personal preferences. To be clear I never called Valkyr "game-breaking."

I don't think she is. I think certain aspects of her break certain integral aspects of combat. That is not the same thing. 

I have my own opinions about what each aspect of each frames power floor and power ceiling should be.

I don't feel like not using certain things is a proper representation of how the game should play.

When I have to find challenge in a certain aspect by purposefully gimping myself it takes away from my enjoyment. 

I can voice that viewpoint. 

 

Also keep in mind that DE has a made few statements about the kind of balance they are going for.

They don't want the P42W thing, they do want using powers to be more involved than that.

They don't want frame tiers, they do want each frame to be about the same power level so players can play who they want based on choice not viability. Etc....I am just adding my own opinion of what are some other good guidelines to go with. DE will decide if they feel that fits their game or not. It's not like I'm threatening to leave if they don't make the game my way or something. lol

 

You can try to twist this around in many ways. End of the say it's just people voicing their opinions.

No one has to stop just because their opinion is different than yours. They aren't trying to "push their opinion on others"...

 

Then we'll change to my initial standing. Every post in this thread disagreeing with the op is effectively equivalent to a separate nerf thread. But since it's against TOS to repeat existing topics they condense into a couple of topics. Remove the no duplicates rule and you would see the 10+ nerf threads.

Wait.....What kind of statement is that supposed to be? That doesn't make any sense.

Folks end up having similar debates across multiple threads. We can't count every post as a separate threads as the same thing as a new thread.

Come on now.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[TheBrsrkr]

Then we'll change to my initial standing. Every post in this thread disagreeing with the op is effectively equivalent to a separate nerf thread. But since it's against TOS to repeat existing topics they condense into a couple of topics. Remove the no duplicates rule and you would see the 10+ nerf threads.

This is not considering that '10' was a generalization, just like 80% of the statistics on the internet.

Firstly, assuming that every comment that disagrees with the OP is a separate nerf thread is really just ridiculous. Honestly. That's just straight up data manipulation.

Secondly, making generalizations is not a good thing and should not be done. Give a reasonable metric, provide reasonable comparisons.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

First of all, let's try to stay on topic, so far it was a pretty civilized discussion, so let's try to preserve that. Counting the nerf threads won't change anything at all.

Ok seriously...in ANY game the lower lvl players are worse than the higher lvls. You run into a low MR player their valkyr is gonna suck. You run into a mid-MR player they'll be adequate. You run into a high MR player their valkyr will be very good to "FUN". This is how the system of ANY game works. So should we have a frame that sucks forever no matter how many mods we put into it? You're obviously high MR so yea you have EVERYTHING so stuff if obviously starting to get boring to you so maybe it's time to do something with your life. 

 

And btw this is a CO OP game. Meaning you are working with your teammates to survive as long as possible or finish as soon as possible. If the frame is good and gets you to accomplish that goal WHYYYYYYYYYYYY are you complaining about it??? You aren't trying to get the most kills. You aren't trying to do the most damage. You aren't trying to be the top ranked player. YOU ARE PLAYING TO FINISH THE MISSION AND GET LOOT.

Actually that's not very true. Valkyr's Hysteria (along with Exalted Blade) is one of the only powers which is OP through out the entire game (from low level players to high level players) 2.5 drain is pretty low, and you can change it to 1.3 with regular Continuity and Streamline, which already lets you run with Hysteria for a couple minutes straight. Hysteria's default damage is twice as much as Scindo Pirme and also has like 2x attack speed. So it's effectively 4x DPS compared to the one of the strongest melee in the game. It's incredibly strong melee for low-mid level. It's even really decent weapon for star chart high level (like level 30-40) So low ranked player, playing as Valkyr can skip through all the mid and high level content just using Hysteria alone. Is there any other frame that can do that? I don't think so, maybe only Excalibur, but with him you at least need to watch out for damage, and with low ranked redirection/vitality it might be pretty tough.

 

As for second statement, in my opinion Co-op game isn't an excuse to have characters unbalanced. Otherwise every time we will be presented with some kind of challenge (like some challenging tactical alerts or something like that) you just take Valkyr (or any other OP frame) and complete it without any challenge. Didn't you say we should be working with our teammates to overcome challenges?

[tripletriple]

So far every response in this thread has been let's remove invulnerability because I don't like it. Or I think it's game breaking. With no actual metrics on how it is affecting the game. Neither have many of the nerf ideas been original or unique but a simple mechanic change to limit her time in hysteria. 

 

This type of thinking is selfish as it doesn't account those who like to stay in hysteria. Until someone can definitively prove valkyrs mechanic has objectively simplified all game modes and removing all challenges for you and your team it will be nothing but an opinion. I have even seen one individual claim that valkyr is better for odd over Vauban.  Someone who can effectively remove any and all challenge from odd for the entire team.

 

It's great that you have opinions but try not to pass them as a fact without specific scenarios or metrics within the game of warframe. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by tripletriple

[[DE]Danielle]

Alrighty guys. 2 pages of off-topic and derail worthy posts were hidden from the thread. Please keep the discussion to Valkyr's hysteria, no need to turn on one another. 

 

Thanks! 

[Roboplus]

At this point, why is this topic even still open for discussion?

 

People want Hysteria nerfed. People don't want it nerfed. There is no consensuses between the two sides. There won't be. The people who like to be invincible will not yield and the people who disagree with that won't either.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

At this point, why is this topic even still open for discussion?

 

People want Hysteria nerfed. People don't want it nerfed. There is no consensuses between the two sides. There won't be. The people who like to be invincible will not yield and the people who disagree with that won't either.

There is a lot of hysteria going on about this topic...

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

So far every response in this thread has been let's remove invulnerability because I don't like it. Or I think it's game breaking. With no actual metrics on how it is affecting the game. Neither have many of the nerf ideas been original or unique but a simple mechanic change to limit her time in hysteria. 

 

This type of thinking is selfish as it doesn't account those who like to stay in hysteria. Until someone can definitively prove valkyrs mechanic has objectively simplified all game modes and removing all challenges for you and your team it will be nothing but an opinion. I have even seen one individual claim that valkyr is better for odd over Vauban.  Someone who can effectively remove any and all challenge from odd for the entire team.

 

It's great that you have opinions but try not to pass them as a fact without specific scenarios or metrics within the game of warframe. 

What kind of metrics do you need?

Is the fact that it's the ability which you can keep active for 30+ minutes straight while dishing out one of the highest DPS in the game and removing 99.5% of all the danger in the game is not enough?

 

On top of it I've already said how it affects the early game, when you are able to deal 4 times as much damage of one of the strongest melee in the game with unmodded Hysteria, and able to keep it up for 98 seconds (without picking up any energy) with just regular Continuity and Streamline.

 

Somebody also tested that without melee weapon equiped, you can actually kill level 60 enemies with one hit.

 

Also there were multiple ideas on how to fix that.

In short:

1) Remove invulnerability and replace with plain 90% damage reduction

2) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain based on damage

3) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain based on number of hits

4) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain depending on how much health you have remaining (disabling Rage mod while in Hysteria)

There might have been some others, but these are those that I remember.

 

There are plenty of reasons and suggestions here (whether you want to call that metrics or not is up to you), so you might as well reply constructively here, rather than just saying that it's all just opinion.

[Stratego89]

At this point, why is this topic even still open for discussion?

 

People want Hysteria nerfed. People don't want it nerfed. There is no consensuses between the two sides. There won't be. The people who like to be invincible will not yield and the people who disagree with that won't either.

This. Hasn't this thread had many pages worth of posts removed on like 4 separate occasions now? I mean there's a ton of these topics up right now- I don't see any merging happening, other ones have seemed to remain rather civil- and a lot of the good actual quality posts on this thread seem to be getting removed on the side when getting rid of the bad ones (an example is many of my posts had nothing bad in them- hence I didn't get any warning points etc- and were completely on topic yet they are all gone as of this morning, I presume because they happened to contain quotes from bad posts that were removed).

[BrazilianJoe]

There hasn't been a hot topic in long time. Player interest could be objectively gauged in a poll. 

 

THis is one item where tehre will never be a consensus in the community, and any choice will be polarizing. 

 

What can be done though, is to objectively measure the community's opinion - which sometimes is wrong anyway as to what's beter for the game long-term.

 

Personally, I find her being invulnerable boring. 

 

 

 

I would strip her shields off, buff her health 5x and make her immune to procs and crits. Also a movement speed buff.

Her attacks would get her health regain. 

 

I would rework her scream-strips-shields power for when Hysteria is active, to rip off a small amount of her HP instead. 

 

I'd have her an augment where each kill temporarily grants her damage reflection. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by -TP-BrazilianJoe

[VoidWraith]

You can essentially just go god mode, retreat and then deactivate, and then reactivate when enough energy is gained. Since this is now toggable. 

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Being a major Valkyr fan/main, I feel I should post something to this. However I could care less if hysteria got nerfed or stayed the same. Honestly those who view hysteria as overpowered just means its a crutch of some sort to them, be it in use or simply their mentality. As for me Ill continue to enjoy the game as is, because it is powers themselves that are everyone's crutch and I've learned how to avoid them. Game on and cant wait to see how all these complaints turn out.

Edited October 14, 2015 by DarcnyssWolfe

[tripletriple]

What kind of metrics do you need?

Is the fact that it's the ability which you can keep active for 30+ minutes straight while dishing out one of the highest DPS in the game and removing 99.5% of all the danger in the game is not enough?

 

On top of it I've already said how it affects the early game, when you are able to deal 4 times as much damage of one of the strongest melee in the game with unmodded Hysteria, and able to keep it up for 98 seconds (without picking up any energy) with just regular Continuity and Streamline.

 

Somebody also tested that without melee weapon equiped, you can actually kill level 60 enemies with one hit.

 

Also there were multiple ideas on how to fix that.

In short:

1) Remove invulnerability and replace with plain 90% damage reduction

2) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain based on damage

3) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain based on number of hits

4) Keep invulnerability but increase the drain depending on how much health you have remaining (disabling Rage mod while in Hysteria)

There might have been some others, but these are those that I remember.

 

There are plenty of reasons and suggestions here (whether you want to call that metrics or not is up to you), so you might as well reply constructively here, rather than just saying that it's all just opinion.

You didn't prove anything. You still can't guarantee a defence win  or a MD win with just hysteria.