Second Dream plothole? (thanks for the help so far)

[Katinka]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This depends on whether or not Stalker either A) has a Landing Craft of his own, in which case he can just fly to the Moon (just like we did during the quest), or B) uses the Void to do his signature teleport (you know, when his death mark activates) in which case he can just teleport to the Moon

Given that the Hunhow's Gift bundle includes the Sotz Scimitar skin, I'd say Stalker has his own landing craft (and also his own kubrow but that's not reallt relevant right now).

However, we didn't just fly to the moon.  We flew to Neptune, chased the Stalker through a portal generated by a torsion beam device, followed him through the void to the Moon and at some point later disabled the interference that was preventing Ordis from being able to track us.  Only at that point could our landing craft get anywhere near the Reservoir.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

The moon was hidden in the void and had a tower masking it's location (which is why you had to kill the masking so Ordis could go pick you up) so perhaps, even if you could just freely fly in the void, the tower would make it seem like there was nothing in that region, or the void despite being a pocket dimension manages to be so incredibly big that it's hard to find things without proper coordinates.

 

And then if you start wondering about travelling while inside of the void, you also have to wonder how the void is even lit up and how you can see what's around you in the void, because those energy clouds do make it easy to hide things, even if as big as the moon.

What Hunhow got that the Stalker didn't know was the actual location of the moon. The reservoir was always in the moon, but remember, the moon wasn't always in the void, so what he got from Lotus was the way to get there, the way to the tower that is masking it's location in the void, because it's probably easier to get the data to make a key that brings you to do the tower than to go into the void and look for the moon.

Void keys seem to be like the star gate combinations, except it's a key. Each key brings you to a different place and perhaps the gates are just... well, gates, except that rather than always bringing you to the same place, they bring you to the place the key belongs to, because if it wasn't like that, the Corpus would already know about the moon.

Though the void in the current starchart is rather confusing, as we just magically appear inside of the tower rather than through a gate, but perhaps in the next starchart we might as well use gates instead, since it makes more sense that way (I'd find more interesting if Sabotage missions started in an allied colony that has a gate, and you begin the mission in the colony and go to a gate that brings you to the correct tower). It's just silly to use a key if Ordis just magically knows where the towers are, or use an one use only key only to find the coordinates of it's destination (or perhaps the lore lacks in explaining what happens to the towers we raid). Though the whole magically going into the void is a plot armor for us (well, our ship), it would be nice if that plot armor was changed into a more specific term rather than the broad term "void" (Grineer actually narrow it down to void masking, rather than Ordis hiding the orbiter in the void, is it masked using the void or is it in the void).


So, yeah, the Stalker knows where the reservoir is, but remember that the moon disappeared when the Empire ended, and was thought to be destroyed, which despite what is said in the quest, old lore also depicts Stalker in the last day of the Empire, which still lets him see what he really was (though the question is why he forgot so soon, because we forgot that AFTER the old war, after the Lotus hid us) before the moon vanished.

Also, there's at least 1 lore entry that seems to depict the appearance of a Tenno  in a prime Warframe after the fall of the Empire, so either some stayed behind and went to sleep later, or maybe it could be Stalker before the years took the best of him and he finally fully succumbed to insanity (gradual degradation of someone's sanity is rather interesting and lets the character retain a more... human side rather than just turning crazy in a flash). Maybe he was against it and didn't go to sleep like others and he didn't go insane from the Truth right away, but tried to do what he was meant to and slowly lost it (well, like the blue ***** in Madoka, she slowly gets crazy over doing what she was supposed to, until she fully lost it, that's perhaps a more... understandable way to explain it due to how many people know that... thing).

 

 

And all this wall leads to what? Perhaps the Stalker himself didn't know the moon still existed, because the Lotus hid the truth from him. Maybe he's not even in the moon since the day it vanished, he could've abandoned it and gone to his Orbiter before it vanished since he wasn't in agreeance with what was happening because remember, the Orbiter already has the same technology as the Reservoir. Or maybe the Stalker is just the lingering hatred that his Operator left behind, leaving only that, his shadow (notice how Hunhow even talks about Stalker's thoughts in the past, "But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?", see, wouldn't it be "Am I" if he was still a Tenno and since he's currently asking himself?), but even Shadows can remember what they once were, or even Shadows still below to something (he's acting as a separate entity from his Operator but still linked to him/her).

Only time will tell. ._.

[TARINunit9]

37 minutes ago, Katinka said:

However, we didn't just fly to the moon.  We flew to Neptune, chased the Stalker through a portal generated by a torsion beam device, followed him through the void to the Moon and at some point later disabled the interference that was preventing Ordis from being able to track us.  Only at that point could our landing craft get anywhere near the Reservoir.

Shoot, I need to look at the quest again. I thought we used the portal to go to the Observation Tower, then we land on the Moon using our landing crafts in the next two missions. Is that not how it goes down? I forget

[Tyoccial]

12 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Or maybe the Stalker is just the lingering hatred that his Operator left behind, leaving only that, his shadow (notice how Hunhow even talks about Stalker's thoughts in the past, "But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?", see, wouldn't it be "Am I" if he was still a Tenno and since he's currently asking himself?)

 

You could still exist but no longer associate yourself with them. Like, for example, you're born in America but move somewhere else and denounce your citizenship. You were an American but now you're no longer. And even then it could be on a deeper level than that. And also if Hunhow has a greater grasp on Stalker than Stalker does himself then perhaps it could be a symbiotic parasite kind of relation where the Hunhow self is in control and telling his old self (the old person in control) that he (the old operator) was one of those but now he (Hunhow) is in control. So there could still be ways where the Stalker still has an operator who's alive somehow but is not longer the one in control (or as much), but that's just an oddball guess that's really grasping at straws.

[321agemo]

1 hour ago, ScorpDK said:

I am going on a limb here, but...

How do we reach Orokin Towers and Derelicts? We require keys that open the way there.

The grineer crafted a Torsion beam to forcefully open a path to the void, using a key.

You can imagine the same applies to the Stalker. He cannot simply go there by knowing where it is, the Void doesn't simply open itself. And he can't simply "tell" Hunhow where it is, as Hunhow himself is both afraid of the void, and cannot simply open a gate to it on a whim without knowing the specific data that is encoded into the keys and Lotus' memory.

.The lotus calls it a portable torsion beam device. Its likely our own landing craft or another we can use to create the same portal. Either that or some kind of teleportation device since we basically warps there. Perhaps our orbiter contains it?

 

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Shoot, I need to look at the quest again. I thought we used the portal to go to the Observation Tower, then we land on the Moon using our landing crafts in the next two missions. Is that not how it goes down? I forget

.Neptune. we go there and see a torsion beam device that the stalker uses to travel to the void. Afterwhich he takes the key and closes the portal. We fight a sentient which drops a void key. We go in the void and see the stalker fly to the moon and we turn off the void tower security so we can get our liset to find us.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, 321agemo said:

.Neptune. we go there and see a torsion beam device that the stalker uses to travel to the void. Afterwhich he takes the key and closes the portal. We fight a sentient which drops a void key. We go in the void and see the stalker fly to the moon and we turn off the void tower security so we can get our liset to find us.

Right, that's mission 3 on the observation tower. Missions 4 and 5 are on the Moon. How do you get to the Moon for each one?

 

28 minutes ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

Perhaps the Stalker himself didn't know the moon still existed

That would also make sense, hmm...

Edited March 2, 2016 by TARINunit9

[CY13ERPUNK]

dont try to think too hard about it OP, DE's current 'story/lore/whatevs' has about as many holes as a cheese grater...

several factors involved, one of the largest being that they/DE cut about 50% of the 'story/lore/content/whatevs' from the 2nd dream b4 launch, so the entire thing that we saw was just a hobbled-together jumble of what was left/semi-polished

but otherwise their writers clearly do not care much at all about any kind of logical consistency, they are perfectly ok with 'space-ninja-magic' instead of any kind of science-fiction... =/ unfortunately...

[321agemo]

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Right, that's mission 3 on the observation tower. Missions 4 and 5 are on the Moon. How do you get to the Moon for each one?

.drive there with our liset. Since we know where the orokin tower is on mission 4, we can just fly there. On mission 5 the moon is no longer in the void.

[TARINunit9]

Just now, 321agemo said:

.drive there with our liset. Since we know where the orokin tower is on mission 4, we can just fly there. On mission 5 the moon is no longer in the void.

So we do, in fact, fly straight to the Moon in mission 4 while it's still in the Void?

[Katinka]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Right, that's mission 3 on the observation tower. Missions 4 and 5 are on the Moon. How do you get to the Moon for each one?

In mission 3 we go from Neptune to a tower that is near the moon and masking it's location.  Under Alad V's advice we disable the tower so Ordis can track us and come to pick us up.  The Moon is no longer hidden by the start of mission 4 because of our actions in mission 3.  It's still in the void but no longer hidden.

[321agemo]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

So we do, in fact, fly straight to the Moon in mission 4 while it's still in the Void?

.pretty much. If i remember correctly when we get a mission complete on mission 3, and return on the liset, we see the moon in the windscreen. Ordis even comments regarding it. The time between mission 3 & 4, we remain in the void and quite close to the moon.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, 321agemo said:

.pretty much. If i remember correctly when we get a mission complete on mission 3, and return on the liset, we see the moon in the windscreen. Ordis even comments regarding it. The time between mission 3 & 4, we remain in the void and quite close to the moon.

OK, so I was right earlier. It's not like Stalker can't just fly to the Moon so long as he knows it's still there. It's "so long as he knows it's still there" that's potentially the sticking point

Edited March 2, 2016 by TARINunit9

[321agemo]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK, so I was right earlier. It's not like Stalker can't just fly to the Moon so long as he knows it's still there. It's "so long as he knows it's still there" that's potentially the sticking point

.I guess? Since thats what he does near the end of mission 3.

 

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, 321agemo said:

.I guess? Since thats what he does near the end of mission 3.

So it's back to my original question: why don't Stalker and War-Hunhow just go there in mission 1? They don't need a portal to land on the Moon when it's still in the Void, since we don't either. Is there a reason? Or is it a plothole?

[Mak_Gohae]

Hunhow is like the FBI and he needs the password to open up the Tenno iphone.

[321agemo]

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

So it's back to my original question: why don't Stalker and War-Hunhow just go there in mission 1? They don't need a portal to land on the Moon when it's still in the Void, since we don't either. Is there a reason? Or is it a plothole?

.Well for starters, stalker needed to make a void key to go to THAT specific tower. In mission 3, Alad V makes a comment that the tower you go to was specific tower designed to mask the moon location.

It is unclear WHEN the stalker witness the reservoir: was it before or after it was pulled into the void.

Even assuming they know its in the void, the void is a friggen huge place. Its like finding that single bone needle not in a haystack but inside a hay farm.

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by 321agemo

[Grimm]

stalker = ballas.

there a few things that make me think this.

the fact ballas clearly works directly on the creation of the warframes after Margulis's death (audio in saryn prime's trailer is him telling us he designed saryn prime to combat the infested out break on earth). 

he has a great love toward the rules of the orokin way and stalker wishs to kill us because we destroyed the orokin and there way for killing margulis.

in his audio during the quest he sounds mental unstable, he was working with the creatures that are the very reason his beloved margulis died.

also explains the ability to nullify any and all warframe ability's.

if he is not one withthe stalker then he atleast created the stalker as his revenge. 

also the fact the quest is about stalker as de have said so many times. so there must of been a reason to do with stalkerthat they gave us the audio on ballas and margulis.

 

 

[TARINunit9]

14 minutes ago, Grimm said:

stalker = ballas.

Unlikely. Ballas was a very rich man, upper class, while Stalker refers to himself as a "lowly mall cop". Sorry, "lowly Guardian".

[Miser_able]

Perhaps the moon isn't the only place to have a reservoir in it and stalker had been to a different one or maybe he had been to the moon before lotus moved it.

[Horaciozhao]

well, Stalker is old, very old, so perhaps he has been there before Lotus/Natah hid the moon in the void

[SilvaDreams]

There really aren't any plot holes at all, just questions still left unanswered.

The story that is unfolding is quite interesting and rather deep though many seem to be either missing, forgetting or just not seeing certain thing and subtle hints.

 

Or just getting stuff completely wrong like the OP.

Edited March 2, 2016 by SilvaDreams

[Blakrana]

5 hours ago, Grimm said:

stalker = ballas.

there a few things that make me think this.

the fact ballas clearly works directly on the creation of the warframes after Margulis's death (audio in saryn prime's trailer is him telling us he designed saryn prime to combat the infested out break on earth). 

he has a great love toward the rules of the orokin way and stalker wishs to kill us because we destroyed the orokin and there way for killing margulis.

in his audio during the quest he sounds mental unstable, he was working with the creatures that are the very reason his beloved margulis died.

also explains the ability to nullify any and all warframe ability's.

if he is not one withthe stalker then he atleast created the stalker as his revenge. 

also the fact the quest is about stalker as de have said so many times. so there must of been a reason to do with stalkerthat they gave us the audio on ballas and margulis.

Right...interesting cognitive leap here.

For your first point: So Ballas has been involved in the creation of at least one known class of Warframe. However, if the Stalker was Ballas, the simple problem of 'access to all Orokin technology in Origin by virtue of Executor class genetic clearance' would make him potentially the single most dangerous individual in the current era. Solar Rails? Towers? Orbiters and Warframes? There's no telling what he'd be able to supplant if so with just the boons his DNA would afford him. He could hijack the entire Solar Rail network and, in a single move, trap every single ship in orbit around their last visited planet. Just think of the infrastructure hit that would cause for a moment.

Ballas was an Executor, potentially making him one of the most powerful figures in the Empire. Stalker is just...not at all carrying that air of elite an Orokin Executor would be expected to carry. No gravitas whatsoever.

Whilst we've not much to go on...Ballas was just one of many other Orokin who were out for the Tenno to be permanently disposed of. Eventually it got to the point that he, along with the other Executors, did what their title implies and executed her. The Tenno aren't responsible for Margulis' death in the sense 'she died in a tragic accident caused by them'. Rather, the Orokin Executors did for association and resisting their will.

"Seven hands raised! For your apostasy your sentence...is death. Margulis, why?" - Ballas

Which leads into avoiding responsibility for that; remember Ballas says "You must renounce before the seven", in other words, the Executors, him among them...meaning he voted to have her executed. Must have really loved her...not like he couldn't have just not voted alongside after all, even if it was pointless numerically; Ballas betrayed Margulis in the end, make no mistake.

With Margulis dead, Transference was discovered a few years later ("It's about the rejects we sent to Lua a few years ago...they're calling it...Transference") and, whilst Ballas resisted ("I know we are desperate Executor but these aren't Dax soldiers! These are golems, possessed by devil minds") if the Executors voting is democratic...well, cue efforts to make use of a potential war asset.

Which compounds the betrayal of Margulis, as now...everything she did to try and help the Tenno? Turned around and used to serve the Orokin when they were desperate, serving as his persistent revenge of the Tenno as they become little more than walking weapons. Invoking Margulis' name is just making an excuse. And of course, seeing as the man is quite devious as the Crewman Synthesis showed...could be it was everything he planned for in the first place. By eliminating Margulis...he removed the only known compassionate voice fighting for the Tenno's rights as people rather than as weapons. Stalker has a long way to go if he's going to live up to that.

Power nullification, as evidenced by the Corpus, is hardly an uncommon piece of technology. So you can't infer much past 'Stalker has a better form of said tech'. As for the 'Stalker', seems to be no more than a modified Excalibur model by general consensus.

The 'Void imprint' dialogue is more to do with the Tenno and what they are, than Stalker specifically. They provide the context for what you find in the Reservoir. The quest is about the truth of the Tenno...which may relate to whatever Stalker is, or was, as that truth is what made him mad according to the Lotus. But the matters raised by Margulis and Ballas are literally no more than a very quick crash course in the fates of the Tenno and their eventual union with the Warframes...not some special focus on Stalker specifically as the implication is he's no more than one of those very many. Of course, early days so we need more information to be definitive in what's being said.

End of the day, the notion of Ballas being the Stalker will need a lot, lot more information to be supported as it stands as currently, any connection is tenuous at best...and then a lot of explanation why and how an Executor survived into the modern era of the Origin System without literally pulling rank, taking control of everything genetically locked out as the Guardsman synthesis explicitly highlights as a problem since the Empire fell. And look how much the early Grineer uprising could do with a Sectarus. Were Ballas still alive...one wonders just how much would be open to him on Executor access privileges. 

Any rate, apologies for going on, as always.

[Leavith]

Okay gave up reading most comments so I could skip to write my own.

So we know stalker gone insane and he has been insane for many years now,,,,,,in addition to this fact of being insane the hunhow and stalker alliance has just been created recently.

So that is 1000 century of corrupted twisted and damage memory that hunhow can barely read or understand.

Now putting that aside the lotus mention something drove the Stalker insane and we are also inform that the moon was teleported.

In addition to that the stalker was their The Day of Recognition meaning outside the void when the chaos happened.

Why outside the void because in the sys data we are inform that people begin to enter the void because of the war which brought the bound of more what I would call tenno(yet i would really call them lower guardian not born or made the same way the lost zariman children) of more towers and that even during the war many people still were on planets or using them.The war was more like to have been fough on the different system as it would make sense the mirage quest line that their was a ship and some form of extraction and the sentinel only got as far as some planets hence why phobos is sand.Okay not sure of this but the remainds of hunhow are in regors place so that's a thing...but were stop from coming any closer once the bridge in pluto was destroyed since the flood could not occur any more and the curse of not being able to bare children limit all re-supplied of sentient troops. Remember the sentient we fight now are pieces of hunhow so with this in mind they never reach earth or the moon apart from the lotus who discover us.

Meaning is more likely that the hunhow sentient and alike as we know Lotus being the only one we know of were each send to capture certain planets (such as we find hunhow remains in regor place full of water and earth is full of grass next to the moon were lotus is more likely to hae found us)and once the bridge in pluto got destroyed no more reinforcement and all that was left was taking out the enemy which brought the end to the war,but not before lotus went for her mission on earth and discover us and adopted us.

Now the Day of Recognition puts everyone who came out to see including the stalker and the warframe/tenno outside the void,but then we are inform that the moon has now gone missing because of the lotus so she hide the box.

So no one knew what happened to the moon-the example with the box basically

Also the stalker mind is so messed up he only know how to follow killing orders....and have nightmares and nightterrors.

Making the stalker mind pointless in finding the moon or the resorvoir

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Leavith

[Grimm]

13 hours ago, Blakrana said:

simple problem of 'access to all Orokin technology in Origin by virtue of Executor class genetic clearance' would make him potentially the single most dangerous individual in the current era. Solar Rails? Towers? Orbiters and Warframes

you accidentally made an explanation for how stalker got into the orbiter in the quest.. just wanted to point that out.

and corpus nullifier tech has to be based off of something they found. the corpus tech version is not as strong as stalkers. stalker has no bubble and its not limited. stalker also had this power before the corpus even conceived this technology.

and yes of course he is likely reflected to excal since his model is just a reskin of excal. but we the reveal of shadow stalker he gained a mcuh more intense model based off of umbra excal which we are still waiting for.

 

 

also i agree with the person who said there's no plot holes in the story just unanswered question we yet to be given the answer to.

 

[Blakrana]

22 minutes ago, Grimm said:

you accidentally made an explanation for how stalker got into the orbiter in the quest.. just wanted to point that out.

and corpus nullifier tech has to be based off of something they found. the corpus tech version is not as strong as stalkers. stalker has no bubble and its not limited. stalker also had this power before the corpus even conceived this technology.

and yes of course he is likely reflected to excal since his model is just a reskin of excal. but we the reveal of shadow stalker he gained a mcuh more intense model based off of umbra excal which we are still waiting for.

also i agree with the person who said there's no plot holes in the story just unanswered question we yet to be given the answer to.

In as much as the Orbiter: Ordis explicitly notes the Stalker suppressed his systems, and considering Stalker was lugging Hunhow around, makes more sense it was a moment of opportunity. If Stalker was Ballas...well...he'd have been able to do this since day one whenever he wanted to, let alone could have amassed a significant personal power base over the years with free reign of all that defunct Orokin technology. Largely it's his lack of allies that kept getting in the way of his attempts at revenge...which is likely what led him to Hunhow in the first place.

Yes. Corpus tech has to be based off something. Fact remains that such technology is evidently not unique, Stalker just has a much better and more convenient model of it; just looking at a Combo is a significant improvement on the initial Nullifier deployment, even if the range and scope is limited. Iteration is quite potent. Stalker's just had more time...now Corpus R&D of reclaimed Orokin technology is letting them bridge that gap.

Still, end of the day, yeah: More information needed is a given.