Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[cx-dave]

I'm glad it got "noticed". Once that's done I recommend all you guys to start a new thread titled "Mirage and Synoid Simulor - let's fix cheesy mode" and next up after that "Saryn and Hikou P - let's fix I can't even see an enemy to kill even if I had a Tonkor mode". If you need more ideas, let me know.

 

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

I kinda got bad vibes from the "it depends" mindset. The problem with the Tonkor is that it overrides "it depends", by being the best not 10, 20, 30, 50% of the time, but 95%+ of the time (already covered earlier in the thread with videos and picture evidence). Just doing raw DPS calculations (not even counting head-crit AOE madness), it's easy to see how much better the Tonkor is at everything.

It "depend" reflects on how a weapon works in a real game scenario. The Dread for instance typically has 2x - 2.5x the DPS compared to a Hikou Prime. Just doing raw DPS you're clearly going to kill almost everything compared to a Hikou P in almost every match right?

Ah, but you say with a bow you have to aim, the fire rate is much lower, and weapon mechanics etc...that doesn't count for the Tonkor, because it hits everything all the time, even when you miss, or just fire randomly in the air while eating your sandwich and watching the dev stream.

You really think you can mislead the people who created the weapon in the fist place with an inaccurate representation of events? I think most of the other arguments presented here will have a higher degree of success: complain, complain, complain, and eventually they'll cave in. A weapon after x amount of time on the market probably isn't a money maker any longer and we have some wiggle room. Wut? It was about money all this time? Damn, reality sucks.

[Chipputer]

38 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

"Mirage and Synoid Simulor - let's fix cheesy mode"

No need. Even suggesting that Mirage needs any sort of looking at (I'm staring right at you, blindspam builds) is met with people who insist that she's awful and needs to be able to do what she does. Beyond that, Hall of Mirrors making weapons ridiculous isn't a problem. Tonkor, on its own, is.

41 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

You really think you can mislead the people who created the weapon in the fist place with an inaccurate representation of events?

The Devs are well aware of how popular the Tonkor is and exactly why it is so. Don't pretend like they're just now sitting down and going, "oh man look at this weapon. I think it's perfectly fine, even though every single youtuber has highlighted just how overpowered it actually is, along with our forum goers and the Reddit page that we read frequently."

42 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Wut? It was about money all this time? Damn, reality sucks.

How to make more money from a free2play game:

Create viable alternatives to the top end weaponry and monetize all of them, rather than banking on a single weapon that everyone buys one time and then beefs up once.

Your lack of business sense within this model is showing.

[shyguyk]

He is right though. Simulor can get silly.

[cx-dave]

5 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Create viable alternatives to the top end weaponry and monetize all of them, rather than banking on a single weapon that everyone buys one time and then beefs up once.

Monetize this video: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2V0FZcGljd2VYdDg

(Faster than you can cut through lvl 113 armored units with your Tonkor...and before someone says...I did fight all the "realistic" levels below 113 to get there in the first place.)

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 14/05/2016 at 9:07 AM, cx-dave said:

Monetize this video: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2V0FZcGljd2VYdDg

(Faster than you can cut through lvl 113 armored units with your Tonkor...and before someone says...I did fight all the "realistic" levels below 113 to get there in the first place.)

An 'also considered OP' combo (Blood Rush-Body Count crit melee plus Shadow Step) further augmented by a Warframe power just to allegedly outperform a Tonkor under its own power.

3 aspects working together (melee + focus + warframe) versus one entity, coolio.

On 13/05/2016 at 11:53 PM, shyguyk said:

Steve says it needs to get toned down somehow. Rebecca's sorta partial to it due to use.

they were on about "there's always one weapon that's the best in its category" type thing, and buffs and nerfs "depends" on the weapon.

they referenced halo with the magnum vs the rocket launcher saying one shouldn't equal the other. I think this was sorta obvious to everyone though.

Basically what i got from it is they're considering upping the standard of weapon power

@Magneu @TheBrsrkr

What I got from it was a lot in line with this - sensible and as it happens, answering some of my every-devstream questions to which this more specific issue was added (in addition to asking about other over- and under-performing weapons and archetypes).

However, as well as the general sentiment of "There's always going to be 'best weapons'" and "things need to be good in their own way" there were a few little slips in the conversation of the Tonkor and possibly SySim being just zero downside, comparitively and as we've been outlining all thread long, which suggests that the path is clearer for those than many others.

From my interpretation, it's more the difference between Tonkor/SySim (all the niches) and, say, the old powercreeping level of Boltor and Soma Primes (strong but might not need outright nerfing as much as a stat rebalance to define their niche).

Roll on the patch notes.

[ACorpse]

Came looking for this thread, not surprised I found it. I played a bit with the Tonkor when it was released, enjoyed it, forma'ed it a few times, and shelved it. Came back to it since the sorties were released as I needed an elemental-only weapon for the physical resist missions. Previously I was using a crit-build Vaykor Hek for almost everything.

So yesterday I gave Hieracon a go with it. Crit build with Bladed Rounds. I was hitting some molly primed opponents for over 325k damage. o.O

It's a lot of fun but as we all know, no fun allowed, so I'm pretty much expecting a nerf. I'll use it until the inevitable over-nerf comes in then it'll go back on the shelf.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

4 hours ago, ACorpse said:

It's a lot of fun but as we all know, no fun allowed, so I'm pretty much expecting a nerf. I'll use it until the inevitable over-nerf comes in then it'll go back on the shelf.

no fun allowed?  lol

time for another game then :P

btw, my solution to OPs problem is simple: leave tonkor alone and remove self damage from every weapon (heck, there's no FF and some of the more powerful weapons in the game don't do self damage... looking at you torrid... so self damage is absurd in the first place)

[cx-dave]

11 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

3 aspects working together (melee + focus + warframe) versus one entity, coolio.

Tonkor + MP + Madurai = 3 aspects working together. I knew your math worked for something, impressive.

Fun lol: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2UDB1a2FBOWlpaEU

Edited May 16, 2016 by cx-dave
added video link

[(XBOX)OneChicago51]

11 hours ago, ACorpse said:

It's a lot of fun but as we all know, no fun allowed

That's how it seems these days with people whinging about things that can kill things and want it nerfed! Soon it'll be like destiny with all the nerfs people will start to hate this game too. How about instead of nerfing EVERYTHING that works well , BUFF things that don't! 

[TheBrsrkr]

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Andy UFC fan said:

. How about instead of nerfing EVERYTHING that works well , BUFF things that don't! 

So, don't nerf the <20 weapons breaking the power curve of the game, buff the nearly 200 other weapons to compete with them. Right. Tell me which one of these you think is easier,since both of them achieve the exact same result. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Tonkor + MP + Madurai = 3 aspects working together. I knew your math worked for something, impressive.

Fun lol: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2UDB1a2FBOWlpaEU

Assuming MP and Madurai are even involved in the Tonkor half of the argument (unnecessary). Implying MP wouldn't serve similarly well for the meleeing case, in addition to or even alternatively to Speed/Warcry buffs.

 

Nice multikill though. What was that, an age of leading mobs around with Noise Arrows to make a cluster that big all unalerted?

 

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Andy UFC fan said:

That's how it seems these days with people whinging about things that can kill things and want it nerfed! Soon it'll be like destiny with all the nerfs people will start to hate this game too. How about instead of nerfing EVERYTHING that works well , BUFF things that don't! 

Because powercreep is unhealthy. We've been over this.

 

7 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

btw, my solution to OPs problem is simple: leave tonkor alone and remove self damage from every weapon (heck, there's no FF and some of the more powerful weapons in the game don't do self damage... looking at you torrid... so self damage is absurd in the first place)

You advocate fun, don't you? Stop trying to take mine away. There's no fun in brainless click-to-kill-the-entire-area for me, I like my explosives dangerous to both sides if I don't use them right. That's fun.

Besides, then you'd pretty much just have three tiers of weapons: non-Launchers, non-Tonkor Launchers and Tonkors. _{With the odd slight exception. Looking at you, SySim}

[(XBOX)OneChicago51]

Buff SOME THINGS occasionally not just turn everything to crap one thing at a time! Always the easy way just nerf it. Gammacore was good they screwed that and I haven't seen anyone use it since, Messa got a rework I haven't seen a single one since. Building powerful things is what made this game fun. Not anymore. Don't like something don't play with people using them, there is a solo option. These powerful weapons should be top tier mastery rank what's the point of mastery ranks if these best weapons are around 7 (other than the 1000 standing each level). Just save time and give everything 1 damage and be done with it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Andy UFC fan said:

Buff SOME THINGS occasionally not just turn everything to crap one thing at a time! Always the easy way just nerf it. Gammacore was good they screwed that and I haven't seen anyone use it since, Messa got a rework I haven't seen a single one since. Building powerful things is what made this game fun. Not anymore. Don't like something don't play with people using them, there is a solo option. These powerful weapons should be top tier mastery rank what's the point of mastery ranks if these best weapons are around 7 (other than the 1000 standing each level). Just save time and give everything 1 damage and be done with it.

 Go back through the thread and read it, we've covered all of this rhetoric. Literally all of it.

• Gammacor is used.
• Mesa removed player agency and was non-interactive.
• Players shouldn't be forced to solo to actually be able to play.
• MR restrictions are not the only lever for balancing a power grade, and even if they were, then things on the power level of the Tonkor would be at least in the 25-30 band and you wouldn't be able to access them at all.

[(XBOX)OneChicago51]

I play public for the 6-9 syndicate missions and the daily sorties and the occasional alert so there's more than a few randoms. And I'm not a fan of the simulor got it to 30 and never used again, I'd rather use braton prime (which i do sometimes). I currently like the staticor and lex since i finished the 3 primed mods for it and working on Zhuge to see how that goes. When I get around to upgrading prime pistol ammo mutation i might give the gammacor another go I forget what that sounds like. I'm guessing all those are "noob guns" for casuals as you say. I use many things that i don't see anyone else use but if they took out the self damage from other explosives like others say would "fix" the tonkor that would be fine since i like other explosives and explosives are meant to be powerful (right?).

[[DE]Danielle]

Impressively this thread is at over 1000 replies. You guys have showed a serious dedication to the discussion, but it's seriously unnerving to see so many go off and insult one another when there's a more crucial topic at hand. Several comments were removed as a result. To add to the discussion, the devs did address weapon balancing in last week's dev stream: 

Discussions continue. 

[Xekrin]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

it's seriously unnerving to see so many go off and insult one another when there's a more crucial topic at hand.

I sincerely feel for you having to read through each post.  You deserve a cookie or three, someone get Danielle a cookie!!

Wait are cookies an acceptable reward in Canadia?

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, Xekrin said:

I sincerely feel for you having to read through each post.  You deserve a cookie or three, someone get Danielle a cookie!!

Wait are cookies an acceptable reward in Canadia?

Cookies are an acceptable reward everywhere. 

[Hemmo67]

2 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Cookies are an acceptable reward everywhere. 

say that in finland to some random dude on a street..

[shyguyk]

5 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Impressively this thread is at over 1000 replies. You guys have showed a serious dedication to the discussion, but it's seriously unnerving to see so many go off and insult one another when there's a more crucial topic at hand. Several comments were removed as a result. To add to the discussion, the devs did address weapon balancing in last week's dev stream: 

 

I'd ask that you take a pass over the other threads too if you haven't already. There's more discussion, but a lot more insults in the recent posts.

2nd Edit: I'd be all for megathreading this, but some people should be considered for a time out on both sides of the argument in other threads.

Edited May 16, 2016 by shyguyk
That guy down there vvv

[TheLexiConArtist]

11 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

I'd ask that you take a pass over the other threads too if you haven't already. There's more discussion, but a lot more insults in the recent posts.

At this point I think it should be MEGATHREAD material, centred on this one.

At least that way, those fresh-off-the-press "more discussion" threads that popped up as a direct result of the Devstream would be disincentivised from repeating things we've covered here in great deliberation.

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

say that in finland to some random dude on a street..

I'm confused. 

[Aenris]

4 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Cookies are an acceptable reward everywhere. 

I'm from Argentina, and this is SO true.

over here, if you give me a cookie with "Dulce de Leche", you're the best.

[Currilicious]

Game developers should recognize these threads as a malice to their game and ignore them completely. All this does is lead a downward trend of diminishing fun for everyone involved. The five or so, self appointed representative of all things holy (or unholy depends on your appetite on sarcasm), would disagree. But it's really better for everyone involved.

[Chipputer]

Just now, Currilicious said:

Game developers should recognize these threads as a malice to their game and ignore them completely.

I'm very sorry that people recognizing an imbalance, testing it repeatedly, having sound logic behind their reasoning, and asking for the developers to exercise their choice of whether or not to do anything about it is viewed as malice, by you.

[shyguyk]

2 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

Game developers should recognize these threads as a malice to their game and ignore them completely. All this does is lead a downward trend of diminishing fun for everyone involved. The five or so, self appointed representative of all things holy (or unholy depends on your appetite on sarcasm), would disagree. But it's really better for everyone involved.

By the same logic, all rework and buff threads should be shot down because people identify a flaw in those weapons/frames being too weak/cumbersome.