Warframes are actually people

[Sixty5]

First up, quck warning, the following topic contains both Second Dream spoilers and lore discussion, if that does not interest you, just click the green arrow and go, save yourself the pain. 

 

Warframes are people. 

No Sixty, you moron, you played Second dream, you know that Warframes are just Technocyte constructs controlled by the Operator. 

Self arguments aside, I have actually put a lot of thought into this, and it really seems to make sense, so read on, or don't, there will be a Tl;Dr at the bottom regardless. 

 

So I started thinking the other day about the nature of Warframes, not just what they are, but also about their shape and design. And one thing in particular kept bugging me. 

Why do some frames have boobs? Or to be more specific, why do they have genders or sexual characteristics at all?

Before Second Dream it kinda made sense, I mean I was of the opinion that the frames were suits and that they would fit to their owners, Rhino was a big dude Tenno and Mag was a little, girl Tenno. It all made sense. 

However with the revelations made in the quest, that no longer really makes sense. I mean, building an automaton in the likeness of a person makes sense from a control standpoint, but why make different genders and such?

Rounding back to the actual nature of Warframes, it seems almost certain that they are Technocyte constructs, evidenced in both the Rhino Prime codex entry as well as in flavour text within the game (plus removed stuff from old infested bosses "why do you hurt us, you are our flesh"). And this really makes sense, I mean we can trace back the links to Dark Sector and Hayden Tenno (thematically at least) and we know the infestation started off as a bioweapon, and given that Warframes are living weapons they seem to fit the bill for a bioweapon. 

But why is that important, I mean, you said Warframes were people, not lumps of Technocyte, right?

And there is the kicker, that word "were". 

We know that infestation if left to its own devices grows in all manner of funny ways, but it only really produces humanoid creatures from humans (runners as opposed to maggots). Rhino Prime's codex entry is at odds with this, describing one of the first attempts at a Warframe as a shambling mess (just the image I have in my head, not exact wording). Additionally we know the Tenno were rushed into battle, so either the Orokin got really good at manipulating Technocyte or they got desperate and did something not entirely ethical, which, given the fact that they used kids as weapons, isnt too much of a leap to make. 

They used people. 

That is right, Warframes, or at least the original ones from the Orokin era, are made from people exposed to the Technocyte Virus. 

It may sound far fetched, but hear me out. Warframes being people explains why they would have the bodies that they do, it also provides a reason why the Operator feels the need to talk to their frame every 10 seconds WHILE I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF A MISSION DAMN IT SHUT UP. Sorry.

Another huge piece of evidence there is the tiny degree of sentience they show on their own. During Second Dream we see our inactive frame break War without intervention from our Operator. Additionally look at Valkyr, the frame itself is tortured, and screams. No one was piloting it during that period, but the frame still screams, something inside it felt that pain. 

Finally look at it from an overarching lore sense. Second Dream makes no sense if you have built additional pylons warframes, after all, how would you transfer between frames if you believed what was inside the frame was you (implied during the quest). So we can assume that the cannon timeline goes: Tenno wakes up from cryopod, goes through first encounters, does a few jobs for lotus, second dream happens, Tenno starts building more warframes from blueprints. (as far as the building additional frames goes, think of it a bit like cloning or 3D printing with organic material). The frame you start with, the one you wake up in, was once a human.

It seems to fit everything weknow about the lore, and makes for a pretty nice plot twist.

Tl;Dr the original warframes built from the Orokin were made by exposing people to the Technocyte Virus. Warframes are people with a near total lack of conciousness, or copies of said people. 

 

So lemne know what you think about all this. Personally I find that it seems to tie up a lots of loose ends pretty neatly as well as bringing some of that dark gritty feel back to the game (inb4 sixty u Edgelord). Plus it creates some really cool avenues for the future, will the frames rise up and take on the Tenno? (actually that is a pretty good explanation for the nature of the stalker) or will we see a more equal relationship with those we are closest too.

Anyways  leave a comment below, I Wanna see what you guys think. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Sixty5
Added spoiler and lore warning.

[RagingGrizzly]

We don't know who the surrogates are, if they were experience made by the Orokin or whatever.

Perhaps they have gender characteristics so when the Tenno awake up (From a dream) inside the Warframe, they won't have some sort of identity crisis before they find out who they actually are?

All and all, I don't really have a definitive answer, because Inaros has no gender characteristics.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Your ideas are clearly stated in a easy to read and awesome format.

While I agree with many of your statements, there is nothing confirming nor denying the fact that there is a "Body" inside the suit or not. Sure they are based upon genders and carry those identifiers, but that doesn't mean that they "have" genders.

I do think that underneath it all, that the Warframes are merely suits, autonomous suits that can be controlled by a capable entity at will. Whether it be the Tenno, a vengeful spirit of the Orokin, or even the Warframe itself.

We'll have to wait and see. But I do like your observations on the topic. It's really nice to discuss things like this within the community, and it would be so freaking cool if we get to see just what the Warframes are sometime this year. :)

*crossing fingers*

[(XBOX)BURRITO DEVIL]

well,until we get a full on lore reveal,we cant be certain about this,however i like your ideas

[AM-Bunny]

I came to the same conclusion long ago, and I personally still like my theory better than what we ended up with.

Basically, I theorized that Warframes were humans, twisted by The Void and given magical powers. However, their minds were completely destroyed, and they were little more than blood thirsty monsters. To control them, a suit was built around them that would focus their powers, and provide an interface for The Tenno.

The Tenno is essentially a Cephalon. Warframes are very similar to Corrupted. They are living organisms that have had their free will robbed from them. While the Corrupted are directed by The Neural Sentry which can only issue basic commands, the Warframes are each directed by an independent Artificial Intelligence. We've seen a variety of emotions from Ordis, and he's very close to human, so these Tenno could similarly act extremely human.

This conclusion makes perfect sense because we know The Orokin are technologically capable of it. It also introduces an interesting moral dilemma: is it good to basically rob a living creature of its free will and turn it into a puppet? Even if that living creature is little more than a monster at this point? It's also a complete reversal of a common trope: while we've seen plenty of series that feature a human piloting a robot, how about a robot piloting a human? It's very familiar and fresh at the same time. 

But alas.

There's nothing inherently wrong with your theory, but Tenno are now confirmed to be human. The idea of humans 'piloting' other humans seems unnecessarily clunky and sloppy to me. I can't really see it. 

It's worth noting that Jordas clearly refers to the Golem several times as 'he' and 'him'. So perhaps even Technocyte organisms still have genders. Perhaps they are crafted that way by Ballas  because he sees himself as an artist and wants to replicate the beauty of the human form.

[Sixty5]

2 minutes ago, PUR3K1LL3R said:

We don't know who the surrogates are, if they were experience made by the Orokin or whatever.

Perhaps they have gender characteristics so when the Tenno awake up (From a dream) inside the Warframe, they won't have some sort of identity crisis before they find out who they actually are?

All and all, I don't really have a definitive answer, because Inaros has no gender characteristics.

Inaros seems pretty clearly a male Frame, even without needing to see primary sexual characteristics. 

Plus why would the Orokin design frames to avoid identity crises of the users on the off chance they kill their creators and go into cryosleep for ages?

1 minute ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Your ideas are clearly stated in a easy to read and awesome format.

While I agree with many of your statements, there is nothing confirming nor denying the fact that there is a "Body" inside the suit or not. Sure they are based upon genders and carry those identifiers, but that doesn't mean that they "have" genders.

I do think that underneath it all, that the Warframes are merely suits, autonomous suits that can be controlled by a capable entity at will. Whether it be the Tenno, a vengeful spirit of the Orokin, or even the Warframe itself.

We'll have to wait and see. But I do like your observations on the topic. It's really nice to discuss things like this within the community, and it would be so freaking cool if we get to see just what the Warframes are sometime this year. :)

*crossing fingers*

Thanks! I try to keep longer style topics more upbeat to keep them interesting, and easy to read (paragraaaaaphs) 

The only clues we have seen to what is inside a Tenno come from a few frames of the Alad V trailer, Alad's dialogue and from what happens when we get stabbed, all that is for sure is that we bleed, and the rest is inconclusive. 

[taiiat]

sounds pretty plausible considering the origins of this technology and the events that occurred and things seen in Dark Sector.

[Sixty5]

2 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

I came to the same conclusion long ago, and I personally still like my theory better than what we ended up with.

 

Hidden Content

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with your theory, but Tenno are now confirmed to be human. The idea of humans 'piloting' other humans seems unnecessarily clunky and sloppy to me. I can't really see it. 

It's worth noting that Jordas clearly refers to the Golem several times as 'he' and 'him'. So perhaps even Technocyte organisms still have genders. Perhaps they are crafted that way by Ballas  because he sees himself as an artist and wants to replicate the beauty of the human form.

The humans piloting other humans is the part that I really like tbh, it takes it from "oh you are just this dude who sits in a chair and controls a robot" to something a lot more unique. 

The special-ness of Warframes themselves took a hit during Second Dream, but this really brings it back. 

Just now, taiiat said:

sounds pretty plausible considering the origins of this technology and the events that occurred and things seen in Dark Sector.

I know right? Everything really just seemed to fall into place once I had the basic idea worked out. 

[AM-Bunny]

Just now, Sixty5 said:

The humans piloting other humans is the part that I really like tbh, it takes it from "oh you are just this dude who sits in a chair and controls a robot" to something a lot more unique. 

The special-ness of Warframes themselves took a hit during Second Dream, but this really brings it back. 

Okay, then how do we craft new Warframes? They've stated in the 'Ask A Cephalon' articles that Infested Tissue is the only lliving tissue that the Foundry can produce. So them being Infested makes sense. I doubt we have an abundant supply of Void Twisted Humans to use as a base when we build a Warframe. Although - who really knows what we do with those Void Capture targets XD

Also, I forgot to mention - your last point regarding why the Tenno never questioned the logic of swapping bodies when they believed themselves to be The Warframe. I believe that The Tenno was a in a dream-like state. You know how sometimes, in dreams, really strange things occur, but you don't think to question it until you wake up? You just sort of accept it and move on within the context of the dream. I think of the situation like that - The Tenno simply weren't lucid enough to question the details of their reality.

[taiiat]

Just now, AM-Bunny said:

Okay, then how do we craft new Warframes?

already covered how that would be logically.

Just now, Sixty5 said:

That is right, Warframes, or at least the original ones from the Orokin era, are made from people exposed to the Technocyte Virus. 

meaning - the current ones we use may or may not, but the original designs probably were, and then figuring out a way to replicate it en masse after that, like we do with the Foundry.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

30 minutes ago, Sixty5 said:

So we can assume that the cannon timeline goes:

There are no cannons in the canon timeline ;)

[Sixty5]

10 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Okay, then how do we craft new Warframes? They've stated in the 'Ask A Cephalon' articles that Infested Tissue is the only lliving tissue that the Foundry can produce. So them being Infested makes sense. I doubt we have an abundant supply of Void Twisted Humans to use as a base when we build a Warframe. Although - who really knows what we do with those Void Capture targets XD

Also, I forgot to mention - your last point regarding why the Tenno never questioned the logic of swapping bodies when they believed themselves to be The Warframe. I believe that The Tenno was a in a dream-like state. You know how sometimes, in dreams, really strange things occur, but you don't think to question it until you wake up? You just sort of accept it and move on within the context of the dream. I think of the situation like that - The Tenno simply weren't lucid enough to question the details of their reality.

Didn't want to go too much into detail on the crafting in the main thread, but I will here. 

The foundry can produce "living" tissue, we know that for a fact with infested weaponry. Warframes seem to be Technocyte constructs, which is a fancy way of saying 'made of modified infested stuff', so it seems on that level that the Foundry would have no issues popping one out, after all we do have extensive blueprints. The whole process ends up being like a fancier version of cloning. 

Hell the whole process of re-engineering a body sounds complicated, might be why it takes 3 days to build a frame. 

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

meaning - the current ones we use may or may not, but the original designs probably were, and then figuring out a way to replicate it en masse after that, like we do with the Foundry.

Exactly. The Orokin were desperate during the war, the Sentients were wiping that out, they needed an edge, and I'm willing to bet they would go as far as human experimentation to get it. Ethics can wait until after we win. 

 

[AM-Bunny]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

meaning - the current ones we use may or may not, but the original designs probably were, and then figuring out a way to replicate it en masse after that, like we do with the Foundry.

Those two methods are pretty fundamentally different. I find it pretty hard to swallow.

Not to mention it's just needlessly complicated storytelling - if the method of creating them without humans exists now, then what narrative purpose would there be for them to be created with humans then? It's much cleaner if it was the same method throughout. The only possible benefit of accepting this proposal would be an explanation for why Warframes have apparent genders. And even if you accept that, it doesn't explain why the modern ones, made without humans, also do.

Plus, Prime Warframes are obviously the 'original designs' and are still producable with The Foundry.

[Urlan]

I think you are on the money pretty much Sixty, I tend to think the game is saying that warframes are made from infested research on human hosts. The warframes we have just being blueprint copies of those versions. While I am not so sure that prime warframes are the originals so much as 'ace custom' versions while the standard are the mass produced models so to speak. It will be interesting to see where Umbra warframes stand in this.

[taiiat]

Just now, AM-Bunny said:

It's much cleaner if it was the same method throughout.

but far less likely. storties aren't about what's ideal, most efficient, or scientifically ideal. it's a story.

and what usually happens in reality? not some hoity toity ideal scenario. new technology or methods in human history are almost always invented from completely different original intentions, mistakes in application, or shoddy prototypes because it's the best you can do with something you don't really understand yet.
which makes complete scientific sense. some mutations that seem useful for other purposes... the easiest way to weaponize or purpose that would be to cause the mutations deliberately. because it'll take years and years to research those mutations to figure out how to reproduce it artificially.

continuing to produce technology with a 'cosmetic defect' could be for personal flair, not caring about changing things that are only cosmetic in practice, and surely more possibilities.

life is needlessly complicated. 20/20 hindsight.

[EmptyDevil]

I have been thinking that the people the Orokin took that were mentioned in the Inaros quest, were used for Warframe experiments to serve as a base. They may have infected the individuals with Technocyte and applied other technologies to get working Warframe surrogates. Those surrogates would then be reproducible using raw Technocyte after initial testing.

[AM-Bunny]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

life is needlessly complicated. 20/20 hindsight.

Eh... there's a pretty huge gap between what occurs in a well crafted narrative and real life. Real life would make for a sucky story.

I'm not going to say it's strictly impossible, but it just doesn't sit well with me from a fiction perspective. Nothing about the theory jumps out and says 'this is incredibly likely'.

It's sort of like the Warframe equivalent of 'Last Thursdayism'. You can't necessarily disprove it, but... that doesn't make it seem particularly believable. Eh, I'll leave it at that.

[Obviousclone]

Didn't the Orokin design the Warframes based on the fighting style of "the old ways" (of gun and blade)?

Their design was probably influenced by ancient fighters that existed long before the orokin era (and they were most likely human fighters, who's bodies were mimicked as best as possible which is why we don't have a 4 armed Warframe in this game).

I don't think the warframes we use are human. They're constructed in a foundry using a helmet, a chassis and a systems. None of those are "human parts". Their parts may be bio-organic/living flesh, but they are not actual humans.

[Neptlude]

I dont think its possible to bu human since Inaros himself is so thin... And Valkyr literally missing half of her skull.... And the fact Uncle Alad never found the "human" in the suits...

[Stratego89]

Warframes are nothing but a mass of technocyte flesh mixed with other technology. Several parts of the lore state this explicitly. Go watch a playthrough of the second dream and pay attention to what Alad V says and look closely when stalker rends the frame open with war- nothing but a lump of meat. No bones. No organs. No brain. Just... meat.

[Sixty5]

18 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Those two methods are pretty fundamentally different. I find it pretty hard to swallow.

Not to mention it's just needlessly complicated storytelling - if the method of creating them without humans exists now, then what narrative purpose would there be for them to be created with humans then? It's much cleaner if it was the same method throughout. The only possible benefit of accepting this proposal would be an explanation for why Warframes have apparent genders. And even if you accept that, it doesn't explain why the modern ones, made without humans, also do.

Plus, Prime Warframes are obviously the 'original designs' and are still producable with The Foundry.

I don't think so.

We are already reaching a level of technology where body parts can be grown in the lab, where once you had to wait for an organ doner if you needed a new kidney you will soon be able to have a new one grown for you. It's the same principle

The tenno on their own were useless to the Orokin, they couldn't handle their own power, and thus needed a stronger conduit, a warframe, that is straight from Second Dream. From the Rhino Prime codex, we can infer that the first few attempts to grow something from technocyte did not go too well. So instead of starting from scratch why not start from something and modify it, thus, using people to create the first Warframes. Later on technology was used in order to build new frames by replicating what they had through cloning, or some other fancy tech. 

As far as prime frames go, it is the same deal.

The best analogy would be, if you wanted to make 1000 statues, you start by making one, taking a mould of it, and using that to produce the rest. Making the mould without first making a statue is a lot harder than making one statue and using that as a master copy to make the mould.

In this case, the original warframes were all made from people, because that was both easier and faster than trying to work out all science behind making a Technocyte surrogate that would be compatible with a human mind.

[NinthAria]

I don't know if I'm convinced they actually are (or were) people, but it definitely seems clear to me based on certain things (gender identifiers, different idle stances/animations, etc.) that they were at least based on people. They have too much personality to be mindless husks, in any event.

[Nordenfelt_]

I had kinda similar speculation before SD, but now I think what inside of Warframes is just biomaterial, synonymous to human structure or image. Oro wanted to see Tenno avatars looking more humanised, it explains anatomical details such a female breasts or male groins (lol). And now we have two frame variants who looks not anatomically correct: Inaros, who looks more like living dead, or Strega Trinity with defected tiny legs. I just want to say one thing -- Warframes is just projection of Orokin ideas. So, anthropomorphic look is just Orokin engineers wish, but nothing more, IMHO.

Edited March 17, 2016 by D6.Nordenfelt

[Pavelord]

It just occurred to me that the orokin being master cloners, might have used the tennos own dna to clone the surrogates, tenno would be piloting infested clones of themselves clad in warframe armor, you know for compatibility, could give sense to Rhino prime entry, the beast stops because it see himself in human form, and maybe the room with the weird noises is our infested clone factory.

If the surrogates are one with the frame or not, would still mean it is a tenno, and altough cloned Lotus could still see them as her children, and care for them and probably explain why care in Mirage's quest.

 

[Genitive]

3 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

They have too much personality to be mindless husks, in any event.

Except they don't have personality. True, you have hints of personality in descriptions, but that's it. You can say the same thing about a car - it's wild and cunning, whatever, but it's still a car.