Snipers should have punch through

[(PSN)ThatDudeWithCats]

So i started using the vulkar wraith, from the event that came to ps4 and xbone recently, and i realized that it didnt have any punch through and i know theres a mod so that i can add punch through to the gun but i think it should already be added to snipers kinda how it is for bows. and adding the mod to the sniper seems like a waste knowing its kinda necessary so that i can get more than 8 kills in a mag, the snipers in this game all have really small mags, specially the vectis. sniper not having punch through makes the snipers feel  inefficient not to mention and be way behind in kills compared to other team mates. to me it just feels like it should be something that snipers should have and not have to waste a mod slot on it 

Edited April 25, 2016 by (PS4)ThatDudeWithCats

[-FrostByte-]

I always had an idea to rework punchthrough.

 

Let heavy hitters like sniper rifles / bows to have punch through and a few select rifles while smg-spray types have no punchthrough and just remove the punch-through mod from the game but at the same time steve could argue with me and say it would take away from the mod customization from the game that he loves

[Paradoxbomb]

21 hours ago, -FrostByte- said:

I always had an idea to rework punchthrough.

 

Let heavy hitters like sniper rifles / bows to have punch through and a few select rifles while smg-spray types have no punchthrough and just remove the punch-through mod from the game but at the same time steve could argue with me and say it would take away from the mod customization from the game that he loves

I don't think removing Punch-Through mods would be a good idea, after all players do have to sacrifice a mod slot to gain it and as such should be allowed to have it on whatever weapon they want if they're willing to trade that extra bit of single-target damage for improved combat capability against crowds.

But yes, snipers should have at least a little bit of innate Punch-Through. As it is sniper modding is already pretty strict given how many "essential" mods there are, not to mention it's sort of silly that arrows with visible travel time (future bows or not) can punch through solid steel by default but a futuristic, high-caliber sniper rifle can't.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Paradoxbomb

[(PSN)robotwars7]

you might want to remove the PSA tag, only DE staff and mods can use it. just a friendly pointer.

I agree, Snipers still need more of a buff. they need innate punch-through and insanely high crit stats, to compensate for both the precision they demand, and the fact they leave you at a disadvantage at close range. the U18 rework was a good start, but more needs to be done IMO.

[(PSN)ThatDudeWithCats]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

you might want to remove the PSA tag, only DE staff and mods can use it. just a friendly pointer.

I agree, Snipers still need more of a buff. they need innate punch-through and insanely high crit stats, to compensate for both the precision they demand, and the fact they leave you at a disadvantage at close range. the U18 rework was a good start, but more needs to be done IMO.

yea sorry about that, i meant to click on ps4 not psa 

[taiiat]

it could work, IF:

we had two types of Punch-Through. the existing non-diminishing type, and a new diminishing type.
Sniper Rifles that already have Punch-Through, retain their non-diminishing type, and other Sniper Rifles can be given a decent amount of diminishing type.

that way ones that have Punch-Through as part of their theme and balancing don't lose much uniqueness.

similarly on the side, Punch-Through Mods.... maybe be changed to add diminishing type, so Weapons with innate Punch-Through can always boast about it, while other Weapons can get some, but not to the point where it's the same as anything with that as a heavy feature. as anything from ~0.9m-1.5m is basically the same, and anything 2m+ is basically the same. which makes Punch-Through themes not stand out uniquely as much as they could or should.

Edited April 25, 2016 by taiiat

[(XBOX)Twinna25]

Snipers should have 50% base crit minimum in my opinion, as well as around 2.5 metres punchthrough. Rught now the crit feels underwhelming for such a traditionally focused weapon, and so does the punchthrough.

[Myscho]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Twinna25 said:

Snipers should have 50% base crit minimum in my opinion, as well as around 2.5 metres punchthrough. Rught now the crit feels underwhelming for such a traditionally focused weapon, and so does the punchthrough.

And 2-3k base damage to not be a joke like right now

[(XBOX)Twinna25]

I would say better crit damage, rewarding headshots as well.

[SHIR0B0N]

I definitely agree that snipers need higher crit chance. I'd love to see snipers achieve red crits, and not only bows.

But I don't think punch through should be innate, it's just kinda related to the type of damage dealt. The Vulkar Wraith does need punch through to perform well, but it's damage type is mainly impact, it's made to hit like a train and stagger enemies, which it does. Snipers like the Snipetron are mainly puncture, so it kinda makes sense it can punch through. Now I know reality doesn't really have its place in a game of space ninjas but if they bothered to implement semi-realistic resistances and such, why not this.

That said, I personally don't think snipers are underpowered or a "joke" right now. A properly modded and multi-forma'd sniper can easily take down level 80-100 enemies with headshots. 

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, SHIR0B0N said:

I definitely agree that snipers need higher crit chance. I'd love to see snipers achieve red crits, and not only bows.

But I don't think punch through should be innate, it's just kinda related to the type of damage dealt. The Vulkar Wraith does need punch through to perform well, but it's damage type is mainly impact, it's made to hit like a train and stagger enemies, which it does. Snipers like the Snipetron are mainly puncture, so it kinda makes sense it can punch through. Now I know reality doesn't really have its place in a game of space ninjas but if they bothered to implement semi-realistic resistances and such, why not this.

That said, I personally don't think snipers are underpowered or a "joke" right now. A properly modded and multi-forma'd sniper can easily take down level 80-100 enemies with headshots. 

Toss Sonar into the mix and things get exciting when you have someone with skill using that Sniper rifle. 

[Datsher]

3 hours ago, SHIR0B0N said:

I definitely agree that snipers need higher crit chance. I'd love to see snipers achieve red crits, and not only bows.

But I don't think punch through should be innate, it's just kinda related to the type of damage dealt. The Vulkar Wraith does need punch through to perform well, but it's damage type is mainly impact, it's made to hit like a train and stagger enemies, which it does. Snipers like the Snipetron are mainly puncture, so it kinda makes sense it can punch through. Now I know reality doesn't really have its place in a game of space ninjas but if they bothered to implement semi-realistic resistances and such, why not this.

That said, I personally don't think snipers are underpowered or a "joke" right now. A properly modded and multi-forma'd sniper can easily take down level 80-100 enemies with headshots. 

Pretty much this. Especially the pre-nerf snipetron vandal was very good because if enemies lined up you had your 2,5x damage multiplier in 1 shot. But DE had to ruin the fun by taking their usual "appropriate" nerf tactic and nuking the combo counter.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to Weapons Feedback.

[Ditto132]

I personally feel that Sniper Rifle used by a Sniper(Usually a support role tasked to take out priority targets) should have some benefits against those priority targets and the disadvantages of being overwhelmed by crowd.

Instead of punch through, for example, I would propose that Sniper Rifle(especially Lanka) should be able to penetrate Nullifier's bubble or to pop the bubble in a single shot.
And also penetrate Bursa's shield. Making Sniper Rifle the only type of weapon that can do that.

As for critical chance, I don't think it is a good idea, to increase it. I personally believe that Sniper Rifle should have a different set of body multipliers instead.
This way, it would reward accuracy better and with more consistency. (I was rather frustrated when a silenced Rubico headshot didn't crit and broke my stealth due to reliance on crit damage) This way, a bodyshot damage won't be enough to kill, but a headshot damage would definitely kill the target.

For the Sniper Rifle combo counter, I personally dislike the idea. Reasons being that Sniper focusing on taking off priority targets which might not spawn in a short interval between shots, another team member might have took out the target before the shot landed and Sniper "forced" to just take more body shots(at the expense of accuracy reward) at any enemies just to keep the combo up. I think that headshot combo counter, such as 3 headshots in a row without missing, without any duration would be better. (Sort of like headshot only challenge)

Some other ideas for rewarding accurate sniper play:
- Allow sniper rifle to shoot the weapon out of the enemy's hand permanently, stunning target for a short period.
- Reducing scoped aim movement while crouching. Or using mods.
- Higher loot drop chance when killed by headshot.

[SHIR0B0N]

2 hours ago, Skycook3y said:

Pretty much this. Especially the pre-nerf snipetron vandal was very good because if enemies lined up you had your 2,5x damage multiplier in 1 shot. But DE had to ruin the fun by taking their usual "appropriate" nerf tactic and nuking the combo counter.

I'm using the Sandal now in Sorties and it just obliterates anything thrown at at it, even level 100 Corpus. And it only has puncture and corrosive damage on it. It might have been nerfed but it certainly hasn't lost its edge.

Edited April 25, 2016 by SHIR0B0N

[Datsher]

Just now, SHIR0B0N said:

I'm using the Sandal now in Sorties and it just obliterates anything thrown at at it, even level 100 Corpus. And it only has puncture and corrosive damage on it.

It was even better a few months ago. Still a good weapon though.

[(PSN)DBR87]

I really think every sniper should have a minimum:

1 meter punch through.

30-40% Crit chance

2.5 Crit Multiplier

Hip fire accuracy equal to scoped accuracy. Seriously, if you BZO a weapon so that it shoots where your sights are aimed at, it's not gonna magically shoot away from your sights because you're not looking down the scope. The hip fire accuracy nerf nearly killed my usage of Vectis....

I know Warframe isn't the most realistic game out there but I have yet to hear of a sniper rifle in real life that can't penetrate light cover and basic personal armor.

They really did do a good job in buffing snipers but there is still more to be done. At the very least every sniper should have innate punch through. Not saying they all need 5 meters worth or whatever Lanka sit at; hell, Lanka can keep that crown, but there is no reason a high caliber round fired with so much incredible muzzle velocity that it staggers with every shot shouldn't pierce it's target/cover.

 

@Ditto132 I am so with the idea that Sniper Rifles get a X 3 or a X 4 head shot multiplier if they don't get a base line crit increase.

Edited April 25, 2016 by (PS4)DBR87

[Paradoxbomb]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

@Ditto132 I am so with the idea that Sniper Rifles get a X 3 or a X 4 head shot multiplier if they don't get a base line crit increase.

I'm all for this as well. Another issue with snipers is that they're too reliant on chance (on top of the ability to score headshots no less) to deal reasonable damage due to the headshot multiplier's relationship with critical hits. Having a high base weakspot multiplier that isn't tied to crit chance would allow them to deal reasonable damage consistently and make critical hits more like icing on the cake rather than the backbone of the whole gun.

IMHO, what they should really do is remove that increased critical-headshot multiplier and just give all weapon types a specific headshot multiplier as a substitute. Not only would this help slower crit-weapons like snipers as mentioned above, but bring weapons that can abuse the existing crit-headshot mechanic with minimal effort in line (*cough*Tonkor*cough*).

Edited April 25, 2016 by Paradoxbomb

[zokurazor]

Question along these lines, when using a Dread or Paris Prime I notice hitting against the edge of cover often hits the target behind it. Is that a form of innate punch through on those two bows already? Not using any punch through mods but I have run multishot ones in the past so it may be that.

[(PSN)DBR87]

2 hours ago, zokurazor said:

Question along these lines, when using a Dread or Paris Prime I notice hitting against the edge of cover often hits the target behind it. Is that a form of innate punch through on those two bows already? Not using any punch through mods but I have run multishot ones in the past so it may be that.

Every bow has punch through when fully charged with the exception of Mutalist Cernos.

[Madway7]

16 hours ago, SHIR0B0N said:

I'm using the Sandal now in Sorties and it just obliterates anything thrown at at it, even level 100 Corpus.

Good to know that footwear is effective against the Corpus =P

Edited April 26, 2016 by Madway7

[(PSN)gino1313]

On April 25, 2016 at 8:03 PM, -FrostByte- said:

I always had an idea to rework punchthrough.

 

Let heavy hitters like sniper rifles / bows to have punch through and a few select rifles while smg-spray types have no punchthrough and just remove the punch-through mod from the game but at the same time steve could argue with me and say it would take away from the mod customization from the game that he loves

Bows already have a small amount of punch through, about half an arrow's worth. This lets the arrow kill enemies behind thin cover, and also helps with the rag doll kills that bows are famous for down hallways.