Opinions on the Lore Change

[Neo3602]

10 minutes ago, SirCarmen said:

But we still don't know the truth of the warframes in the first place, how the operator connects to it, how much pain they feel, what kind of emotional attachment they have or if the connected operator can be killed with enough repeated trauma or not. Frankly, until the day we learn what exactly a warframe is your whole argument s unfounded, you just come off as having a temper tantrum that you didn't get exactly what you want out of it.

 

Well one of the operator quotes when you are near death is "The Transference makes this hurt." which implies that they feel the pain of the warframe as if it was their own.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

1 hour ago, Wyzilla said:

Which one discusses it?

Ember codex entry.

 

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

 

Unless warframes are independent beings in their own right, that is. Which is certainly supported by certain things that happen during TSD.

5 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

If that's the case, where they believe they're the warframes, then they probably feel all the pain the warframes endure while in a mission.

There's no probably about it. Get down to low health and your operator will talk about how much it hurts.

[(XBOX)ATLongshot]

There have been a lot of posts like this, both here and Reddit, and it almost always stems from a player who played early on had a very concrete idea of what was going on in the lore.  Lots of times this really just turned out as people filling in the blanks left by DE, who left hints that were noncommittal around in the lore overall.  Should they have had a more defined story starting out, probably but they're still developing everything so obviously the story is part of that.   What I don't really understand is the ownership of the story that people seem to have, as though it is the players' world. And it isn't.  Video games are interactive movies or books, we are given the illusion of control when we never had it to begin with. 

 

So.  Sit back, enjoy the awesome powers and the alien worlds, see where DE takes you and you might just end up liking it.  

Edited May 17, 2016 by (XB1)AtlongsterATL

[Wyzilla]

1 hour ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Did... did you even play the second dream?

 

Because all of this was explained in that quest. The Tenno... the operators themselves thought that they were the warframes. But, to quote the Lotus, "It was just a lucid, second dream."

Transference basically allowed the operators to put their mind into the warframes to control them. If that's the case, then after a while wouldn't one naturally come to believe that they are what they see in the mirror, so to speak?

If that's the case, where they believe they're the warframes, then they probably feel all the pain the warframes endure while in a mission. Which means that absolutely nothing is lost when Alad V is involved. You have to remember, that before the second dream, the operators have no way of actually waking themselves up, they don't know that they're really asleep. So in Valkyr's instance, it could be speculated that the operator went crazy because they thought they were Valkyr, and being cut open and experimented on is something that would scar you mentally. I doubt Alad V had enough compassion in him to try and sedate the warframe before cutting it open, meaning the transference link between the warframe Valkyr and it's operator was still active the whole time.

Except we've always been able to swap around Warframes since the start and the Liset coupled with its multiple 'frame selector has existed prior to Second Dream. Plus Valkyr is a warframe accessible to everybody which opens up another can of worms concerning whether or not she's unique and the ability for everybody to obtain Valkyr is purely a game mechanic for fairness.

[GhostSwordsman]

8 minutes ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

There's no probably about it. Get down to low health and your operator will talk about how much it hurts.

I think that option for the operators voice might be unchecked in my game, as I've never heard my operator speak in-mission, especially when getting low on health. That's why I said probably, also it hadn't been mentioned in this thread before I posted.

 

But it does make sense, their minds are linked to the warfames after all. Psychology has shown that our minds are incredibly powerful and capable of making us feel things even without physically experiencing it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GhostSwordsman

[Jakorak]

5 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

Except we've always been able to swap around Warframes since the start and the Liset coupled with its multiple 'frame selector has existed prior to Second Dream. Plus Valkyr is a warframe accessible to everybody which opens up another can of worms concerning whether or not she's unique and the ability for everybody to obtain Valkyr is purely a game mechanic for fairness.

ok this I will level with you on. This is a can of worms that has always been present and still has yet to be addressed. I'm not sure that it can be though and the fact we aren't directly linked to the backstories of every warframe, doesn't necessarily lessen how serious those stories are or how relevant they are to the setting of this world we immerse ourselves in

[GhostSwordsman]

22 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

Except we've always been able to swap around Warframes since the start and the Liset coupled with its multiple 'frame selector has existed prior to Second Dream. Plus Valkyr is a warframe accessible to everybody which opens up another can of worms concerning whether or not she's unique and the ability for everybody to obtain Valkyr is purely a game mechanic for fairness.

We're able to swap warframes around because of transference. Just because we're actually a kid on the moon and not the warframes themselves doesn't break the lore with acutally being able to swap frames. In fact it does the opposite and gives a valid, lore based reason for being able to do so other than just 'because game mechanics'.

 

Chroma's quest alludes to Warfames being active that are not Tenno(not actively allied with the Lotus and taking missions from her). We don't know if they are moving around of their own will, or if they have an operator controlling them. Remember, if the operators believe they're the warframe before the second dream quest, then the Chroma frame encountered in his quest could very well be controlled by an operator because the operator would believe that they are indeed Chroma. If you recall, the Lotus wakes us up at the beginning of the game, but elsewhere it's mentioned that the Grineer and Corpus have gotten to warframes before her(i.e., the original Valkyr). (The original Valkyr became Zanuka. Alad V cut it up and made a Frankenstein of a robot out of warframe bits, all the Valkyr's controlled by us are copies of what Zanuka used to be.) For all we know, waking the warframe up from that cryopod reactivates the transference link between it and it's operator. Perhaps the Lotus cannot make a connection with a Warframe and it's operator after that initial waking. We don't know as it hasn't been explained yet.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GhostSwordsman

[DrProfSirCarmen]

15 minutes ago, Wyzilla said:

Except we've always been able to swap around Warframes since the start and the Liset coupled with its multiple 'frame selector has existed prior to Second Dream. Plus Valkyr is a warframe accessible to everybody which opens up another can of worms concerning whether or not she's unique and the ability for everybody to obtain Valkyr is purely a game mechanic for fairness.

Did you not read the whole lucid dreaming part, it was all a blur to them, they only understood it as much as we did. As for Valkyr, once again we do not know the true nature of the warframes and how mass producing works with them, you'll have all the right to be angry about that once there is actually something contradicting or nonsensical there but currently there is just nothing.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SirCarmen

[Maicael]

@Wyzilla You should really try playing through The Second Dream before trying to critique how the lore was handled. A number of things have more info now that makes sense and follows with the hints that came before, and there's still a number of things we can only guess at and piece together using the new hints provided. 

[Mcl_Blue]

Your whole rant starts with the notion that the old lore was discarded. None of it was, though. The current lore just conflicts with your old headcanon.

[bowiespoon]

28 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

EDIT: One last closing thought. Since this thread asks for an opinion I'll give my opinion of the revelation- since there were no actual changes to lore. My opinion is that I'm ok with the children being the Tenno. What disappoints me is a lot of the cheesy stuff currently present in the game due to it:

Some of the voice lines make 0 sense- we were living for all this time experiencing everything from our warframe, yet the Tenno sometimes makes comments acting like they didn't know about the corpus or w/e until now.

Some of the voice lines are just cheesy one liners that shouldn't exist- we are OROKIN children, but not only do the Orokin live for HUNDREDS (confirmed) if not THOUSANDS (unconfirmed) of years meaning we are quite possibly physically several tens if not over a hundred years old already; but in addition to that we were in cryo controlling our warframes for a mental experience for who knows how long now, slaughtering people and fighting to the death. We should NOT be ACTING like children. Mentally we should be more mature than most human adults in the real world... That's something that bothers the heck out of me.

Overall the Tenno just talk too much. The game had a very stoic and often dark feeling to it. That atomsphere goes out the window when every 2 minutes we start talking unlike before when no one but Lotus or Ordis giving commands popped up on screen. They need to talk less frequently. Their lines need to make sense. Their lines need to be IMPORTANT. If they do this I'll have absolutely 0 complaints. (Oh and better voice acting might help too. That might be easier when the lines could be taken more seriously. You can almost tell even the voice actors thought most of these lines were ridiculous).

I agree with most everything you said, although I think the amount of operator lines are fine, they just shouldn't make me laugh; be it the voice acting or the line itself.

Fingers crossed the next quest resolves some of these issues

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Nothing changed OP, DE has just be exploring and forwarding their game's story on a much deeper level. The Tenno being what they are, these afflicted children of the Orokin era, it makes sense why we can switch Warframes at will with no downtime at all.

I personally enjoyed the Second Dream and all of the lore bits contained within. It didn't necessarily catch me off guard that the Operator we carried into our ship was indeed "who we are", but regardless of it, the beauty in it all brought a bit of water to my eyes when "our" faces were revealed for the first time.

Not these organic and metallic suits, that not only us (the players) but even the Operators came to think of as our own bodies. But these children. These poor orphans. The Tenno.

I for one can't wait for the next chapter in the story: "The War Within"
The Second Dream elaborated to us just what the Tenno are, but we still do not know for certainty just what the Warframes are. Referring to the end of the SD quest, we can derive that the Warframes are able to move somewhat on their own accord. Were it not for the actions of the Warframe during the climax of the quest, the Operator would most likely have perished at the hands of the Shadow Stalker.

As for what exactly made the Warframe move, when as far as we know they can only achieve movement while in physical contact with an Operator or in a Transference state. You got me... I'm excited about the possibilities though.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

3 hours ago, Wyzilla said:

Which one discusses it?

I reference Evangelion more because the pilots are a bunch of children opposed to adults.

I just can't stand the change because it makes Warframe feel like it's targeting a much younger audience with a hollow power fantasy instead of headEldritchrdsthemuch more co dehorror  angle , with the asth,etics of Warframe fit really well with the Infested and DE's history.

The M-rated game is trying to attract a younger audience....really?  I mean, we're all well aware kids play the game and that there's not much that facilitates such a rating...but no, just no.

There was someone about a week or two ago who made a highly convoluted and desperate attempt to convince everyone it wasn't canon despite the obvious.  Don't go down that road.  

Besides, aside from the admittedly limited and rather uninspired quotes the operators say during missions, they're only kids in appearance.  They're essentially walking nuclear reactors, with the ability to vaporize enemies that can make short work of tge Frames they control.

You're under no obligation to like it, but it is what it is and DE spent a lot of time agonizing over their decision, with it taking a lot of guts to do something they knew would cause a split fanbase.

If it helps, think of the child as just a container for a colossal eldritch force.  It's not that far off.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

Kids... oh God no.

Is just the face of the intent to connect with "young/kids players on the game industry/market"

Oh the Humanity!

[Gelkor]

3 hours ago, Wyzilla said:

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

Nothing's been changed, read the lore, Simaris Scans, and codex entries.  As another poster pointed out, you missed  a lot of the lead up to the second dream, and so the reveal seems like a retcon to you as opposed to an unveiling of what they've been teasing since Vor's Prize.

You say that this is attracting a younger audience, but the fact is this is a reveal that comes late in the game for many players, and horribly twisted insane telekinetic child soldiers is not, in fact a young audience thing.

Lastly, and this is something I've said over and over since the Second Dream reveal happened, but I think it might be something you and others who dislike the Tenno reveal may enjoy: Before Second Dream we all were pretty sure what a Warframe was, but we didn't know what the Tenno are. Now, we know who and what the Tenno are, but we don't know what the heck Warframes are.  We know they are alive. We know they are self-aware. And we know that they are hungry. (Rhino Prime Codex)

You want your existential body-horror? We've got your vat-grown infested super-cyborgs mind-controlled by insane teenagers right here. You don't like identifying with your Tenno because it feels too twee? No problem, identify with your Warframe, because that's as messed up hard sci-fi as you can get. If War Within goes like I think it's going to go, you just may enjoy the hell out of it.

Or not. *shrug*

[Jakorak]

4 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

You want your existential body-horror? We've got your vat-grown infested super-cyborgs mind-controlled by insane teenagers right here. You don't like identifying with your Tenno because it feels too twee? No problem, identify with your Warframe, because that's as messed up hard sci-fi as you can get. If War Within goes like I think it's going to go, you just may enjoy the hell out of it.

Or not. *shrug*

^^^^^^ this ^^^ aaaaaalllllllllll of this ^^^^

[motorfirebox]

Honestly, there's nothing to stop you from envisioning "yourself" as the Warframe, and the Operator as the voice in your head that tells you who to kill. It's the Warframe's strength and skill that allows them to be the space ninjas they are; the Operator provides power and guidance.

[CrazyValkyr]

The lore of Warframe is actually so compelling and interesting, that me & my friend spend good amount of time, while we run missions, discussing and talking about the possibilities, speculating about the in-universe things. I'd love to see the story/lore expanded, getting more answers, both about the Tenno and the Warframes. The way I imagine, the relationship between the Warframe and Tenno; it's meant to be symbiotic, in a way. But of course, that's just a speculation & I'm getting spine-chills and proper excitement at the prospect of finding out more.

[Wanting to know more Intensifies...]

DE managed to do so much, with so little, with the small bits & pieces of the story, revealing little by little, grasping on my personal curiosity. In my opinion, that's a true master-piece of craftmasnship, as again, other titles inserted more, and in the end, the result was far underwhelming in comparison to Warframe.

As far as I am concerned; Definitelly hope that the Tenno I have at the back of my ship will turn to be more than a NPC sitting in a chair one day as well! :3

[arch111]

Play the Quest. Do yourself that favor.

Then tell me about the Shadow.

[Vox_Preliator]

Two quick things before I fall asleep.

First:  Remember the MST3K Mantra.  I don't mean to be condescending or anything, I just find that when lore arguments arise, it helps me to take a step back.

Second:  I don't get why there are complaints about the Operator.  Even ignoring the ease of disabling their transmissions and playing as a space ninja robot who has a magic human battery back on their ship, I never found the operator that bad.  Not even close to the "whiny tween" I see them described as too often.  Considering they were basically pulled from the matrix and their entire view of reality shattered with an atrophied body and powers they don't understand and Not Darth Vader and other eldritch horrors attacking them constantly, without the safety of distance Transference offers, I felt they handled it pretty well.  It's not like they got therapy or counseling after that.  I will totally agree that their lines are cheesy and a bit off putting, though.  "My Warframe is strong" I'm on Mercury of course I'm freaking strong compared to the enemies who are made of damp tissue paper and might as well be firing packing peanuts at me.

[GreyEnneract]

Evangelion is legendary, so comparing Warframe to it in your post should show how good of a decision this was.

[YasaiTsume]

All I can say to OP was it was a big surprise to a majority of the community, but since DE was smart about keeping their lore vague, we can't really argue against it.

There are still theories and speculations that the player is indeed controlling the Warframe and that the Operator is just a sidekick + power source for us.

 

Either way : SURPRISE!!!!

[TotallyLagging]

I don't like it.

 

Which is why I'm terribly thankful that they added an option to disable the operators entirely, because their lines are beyond terrible and borderline immersion-breaking ( "Muh wurfrum 2stronk" ). Unlike the Ordis slider that only mutes him without removing his transmissions.

Now I get to play normally! And not start S#&$ty dramas about quitting the game.

[(PSN)JayCeeV3]

It took me a while to used to the idea but now I'm more than comfortable with the Operator/Warframe dynamic. And tks to the posters up above who clarified the whole Valkyr issue for me, I was struggling with how her story gelled with the revelations of The Second Dream (TSD).

There's just one thing that I would like to point out that has been, similarly, playing in my mind since I completed TSD and I am more inclined now than ever to await answers to the questions TSD also raised. For example, 

Spoiler

The Stalker has his hand around the Operator's neck, his vengeance quite literally at hand with Hunhow's voice urging him on and the end of the Tenno imminent. At this time, the Warframe, entirely bereft of Operator influence or control and in fact, to the Operator's and the Stalker's complete surprise; with unbearable fortitude and unthinkable strength, snaps the blade of the broadsword War impaling it and scatters Hunhow's sentience to the space wind. How did the Warframe develop agency without Operator influence or control? Does this imply intelligence? Agency? Where does the terrible martial strength and fightening skill of the Warframes reside? With the Warframe or with the Tenno?

Whatever the outcome - I am more convinced now than ever that DE should actively seek animators to develop a Warframe anime, such is the strength of the Lore. The first season should take us up to the TSD as the finale starting from the Awakening and the Lotus. Released on Netflix so we can watch it all in one go. I would gladly pay double for any kind of access to this anime. Make it so. 

[ninjacat2015]

What I have problem is the children aspect. It would be cooler if Tenno were post human uploads. Some of greatest warriors in history of Orokin empire who now live on in digital immortality. Their spirits inhabit Warframe armors.

Because the Tenno struck me as some ancient honor bound warriors. Not shrilly voice tweeens.

Edited May 17, 2016 by ninjacat2015