Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Mc_Clane]

34 minutes ago, Vethalon said:

It's the same thing as with Saryn.

Many people just haven't figured out how to play her yet.

Still can't do much with polarize, but Magnetize might be one of my favorite abbilities right know.

Bubble + Projectile weapon (Telos Bolter in my case) decimated any enemies I face in my day to day play (Up to 40m T4 Survival, I usally don't run for longer)

Stalker and Sentients die in seconds.

Awesome survivabillity as I usually stay in my Bubbles, where nothing can hit me.

I used to only use mag in corpus sorties and than didn't enjoy her, now I love her.

Stalker is suposed to be power-inmune so that's probably a bug. don't count on that for too long.

So as resume you are saying magnetize rocks. Thanks for the obvious. Tell me something good about polarize or crush for a change, how you manage to take their full potencial without magnetize

it's not the same as saryn. saryn can be played in various ways without one of his powers

Mag lacks power balance. The cheap ones are certainly usefull and the expensive ones are serious crap. In that way she didn't change at all

Edited June 4, 2016 by Mc_Clane

[FitzSimmons]

Mag is awesome now in my opinion. love it so far, used to play with volt on any missions, now sometimes I change to mag, even mag now became more teamplay warframe, harder without teammate but still she is great.

better survivability than before rework against all faction.

I just hope DE will make her magnetize to become a bit wider and pulling strength of magnetize should be stronger, I just can't help but feel "WTF" when enemies escape from MAGneto, make the pulling strength of magnetize stronger not as strong as vortex but stronger.

as for polarize its ok if the damage to health doesn't scale with shield/armor but at least make polarize shield/armor stripping scale with level. as a starter warframe she can turn reaaaally good if the armor/shield stripping scales with enemy level. Mag The Walking CP/Shield Disruption.

Now I can even solo hierarcon with mag, and they're infested.

Edited June 4, 2016 by FitzSimmons

[Peacemuser]

The problem with mag now is that her abilities doesn’t seem to be at an even level within each-other in scalability. Here are a couple of suggestions for changes.

 

 

·         Against Corpus, make Shield Polarize take a percentage of shields by 5%/10%/15%/25% and deal Magnetic Damage the same way as the old polarize, but with no multiplier. The idea here is to group corpus enemies close to each-other to deal that damage. With the new magnetize ability, this makes it much more feasible.

·         Against Grineer, Armor will be reduced by 5%/10%/15%/20% of current armor, dealing health damage taking resistances into account. Enemies will drop at least one shard, and would drop extra shards for every 250 armor lost (EX: An enemy with 3000 armor loses 600 armor. In this case, the enemy will drop 3 shards). The amount of shards each enemy can drop is capped at 10 to prevent frame-rate drops. When the shards are magnetized, they will remove 150 armor for every hit.

·         Allow the shards to be attracted by pull.

·         Make the shrapnel synergize more effectively with Crush, dealing extra damage for every shard in proximity.

Some of these numbers may be off the charts for you guys. Feel free to make suggestions as to what base values works best, or any other details about these suggestions.

 

 

 

If you can, check out my Banshee Re-work suggestions. It's intended to give possible ideas for people to pick and choose what works best for the game.

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Peacemuser

[motorfirebox]

It seems like a lot of Warframe's "abilities are too powerful or not powerful enough" issues could be solved by combining flat damage and %. Like for Polarize, it could do flat damage to shields and a percentage of max shields. Say, 250 flat damage plus 15% of max shields.

[GrimMyfanwy]

6 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

And the cheese continues: as the bubble is being used to block paths now. Put the bubble at the door and presto, they walk right into it deal. Before that is the screams of delight of using bugs to get kills.

Didn't need to cheese Shield Polarize to do it's job. But then folks screamed that it was clearing whole rooms (i.e., taking their kills), so let's nerf Shield Polarize and hype clear cheese mechanics, instead (which will get nerfed again).

BA didn't work for the same reason Magnetize doesn't work. It's a group ability. Most of the game isn't played in Sorties and raids, it's day-to-day missions and the Void.

This change was for Sorties as they recently brought in the Corpus version, and changed Mag so she couldn't one shot the Corpus Sorties.

3 years of a play style changed overnight for one type of game play (the Void has been around since 2014, and could've long been fixed).

Longer a frame isn't fixed/changed the longer players developed a certain way of playing a character. Players adapt to the routine changes, grumble about them but adapt. It's 180 turns in how that character is played -- and from why they choose the frame anyway -- yeah, it's an issue.

Mag was unique for what she offered when I picked her in 2014 (I normally don't play DPS characters, but had to pick A DPS character and picked the unique one not seen in MMORPGs anymore). 2016, after a stroke, it's not even an option to play other than Loki, because I can't see single targets in a sea of particle effects well anymore. Adapting isn't even possible. Why I'm not playing anymore, as Mag was the only frame I have I could play in groups, as it didn't rely on precision targeting.

Ouch, I completely understand why he changes would put your dander up then. Have you tried Inaros? He has minimal particle effect, is fun to play and doesn't rely on precision targeting either. While not a DPS frame, I have yet to find a game where he doesn't excel.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, GrimKonstantin said:

Ouch, I completely understand why he changes would put your dander up then. Have you tried Inaros? He has minimal particle effect, is fun to play and doesn't rely on precision targeting either. While not a DPS frame, I have yet to find a game where he doesn't excel.

Only have Mag, Loki and Trinity Primes right now. Haven't gotten to the extent to farm other primes (had most of their parts when I came back). Came back to strengthen my hand and push my vision and spatial awareness after a stroke (been video gaming since 1976, so nothing is going to stop me now). So it'll be awhile before I have the stamina to farm for more frames. Right now it's blasting Infested, well, that is before this "rework".

[FitzSimmons]

and by the way why not make magnetize like cataclysm? instead of need target to cast, cast it on the ground to create magnetize area, enemies touch the area even a little will be sucked in.

[JohnMorte]

Trash frame. Requires too much setup now. Mag had a strong niche before. Now her abilities were nerfedadjusted to supposedly work with all factions. Instead, get a lukewarm mess. Aggressively average frame now. Other frames do her job better. Frost shields, rhino stuns, ember is better at damage, and so on. Being jack of all trades does not suit Mag.

Magnetize griefs your team. You can't shoot through it, and it makes attempting to shoot through to unaffected enemies impossible.

Too much setup time. By the time I've cast magnetize on one enemy, another enemy has shot me in the back, attended my funeral, and had children with the corrupted heavy gunners.

Modding is now difficult because Mag wants all 4 stats and frames that desire all 4 stats are usually not frames you want to take.

[Doom_Bunny]

Synergy:

Why is Crush able to synergize with Magnetize but not Polarize? During Polarize shrapnel is dropped by enemies which can be drawn into Magnetize for more damage. Yet during Crush where Mag seemingly picks up random metal the shrapnel is completely forgotten about. Leaving Crush no better then what it was before the update; unless the enemies are inside a Magnetize bubble.

What if each shard represented a percentage of the armour/shield/health that was knocked-off. Then during Crush each percentage would accumulate onto the final damage Crush deals to all enemies in range. This way Crush can scale even latter into the game by relying on the player's tendency to use Polarize.

Crush's synergy with Magnetize should scale better with the damage inside the bubble. I've gotten Magnetize to easily continually deal around 450 damage to a lvl135 Corrupted Heavy gunner. However when Crush is used at the same time, the damage doesn't make it out of 100 nor is the damage Crush dealt added to the bubble's damage.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Postal_pat

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Postal_pat said:

Synergy:

Why is Crush able to synergize with Magnetize but not Polarize? During Polarize shrapnel is dropped by enemies which can be drawn into Magnetize for more damage. Yet during Crush where Mag seemingly picks up random metal the shrapnel is completely forgotten about. Leaving Crush no better then what it was before the update; unless the enemies are inside a Magnetize bubble.

What if each shard represented a percentage of the armour/shield/health that was knocked-off. Then during Crush each percentage would accumulate onto the final damage Crush deals to all enemies in range. This way Crush can scale even latter into the game by relying on the player's tendency to use Polarize.

Crushes synergy with Magnetize should scale better with the damage inside the bubble. I've gotten Magnetize to easily continually deal around 450 damage to a lvl135 Corrupted Heavy gunner. However when Crush is used at the same time, the damage Crush does doesn't even make it out of 100 nor is the damage Crush dealt added to the bubbles damage.

This is what im saying. The move where she actually PICKS UP shrapnel..should use the actual shrapnel to cause damage...but everyone is worried about polarize as if DE will suddenly make it OP again. Crush should also be the move to produce energy orbs, not pull. Who uses pull to kill enemies?

Edited June 4, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Rhaenxys]

Is anyone noticing something weird with magnetize and crush bonus damage?

If i magnetize one target he gets bonus damage from crush, however if multiple enemies are inside magnetize, crush damage remains the same as without magnetize, only the main target gets the bonus damage? because thats terrible.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Rhaenxys

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, 3goats said:

Trash frame. Requires too much setup now. Mag had a strong niche before. Now her abilities were nerfedadjusted to supposedly work with all factions. Instead, get a lukewarm mess. Aggressively average frame now. Other frames do her job better. Frost shields, rhino stuns, ember is better at damage, and so on. Being jack of all trades does not suit Mag.

Her strong niche was standing in the middle of a Corpus mission and pressing 2 over and over. Now we can use her against other factions. This is an improvement. Mag's job is now more complicated and tactical, relying on controlling points of the map and punishing enemies who cross these points with incredible damage. She now works a little more like Banshee, whose abilities do little to no damage on their own but set up massive amounts of it for other abilities/your weapons/your team.

6 hours ago, 3goats said:

Magnetize griefs your team. You can't shoot through it, and it makes attempting to shoot through to unaffected enemies impossible.

Frost has the same problem. The workaround is in trying to lure/Pull enemies into the zone, since it deals a portion of the total damage poured into it, and the core of the zone doubles all weapon damage on the target at max rank and 100% power strength. Here's where they moved the scaling damage people are missing from the old Polarize. Alternatively, you could just stand in the bubble defensively and be protected from all gunfire. Magnetize can work like Snowglobe, only it can also be used a little like Nyx's Absorb and furthermore gives the whole squad double weapon damage on that zone. Magnetize can grief, but a Mag who is conscious abut where she puts her zones will do much more good than harm.

6 hours ago, 3goats said:

Too much setup time. By the time I've cast magnetize on one enemy, another enemy has shot me in the back, attended my funeral, and had children with the corrupted heavy gunners.

Sorry to hear, but I don't have this issue. Mobility, basic point control, use of cover, communication with your team, Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct, Natural Talent, heck even Quick Thinking will mitigate this problem. If you like you can even cast Crush before Magnetize, since all surrounding enemies will be momentarily stunned.

6 hours ago, 3goats said:

Modding is now difficult because Mag wants all 4 stats and frames that desire all 4 stats are usually not frames you want to take.

This is a bit of an issue if you want to specialize, since now all of her abilities do something and have a purpose in her kit, and any significant benefit to one power may sacrifice the benefits of another. (I used the old Bullet Attractor maybe half a dozen times total, it was clunky and not that useful.) Before the update a negative-Duration Mag was fine because nothing useful in her kit needed Duration, but now her abilities are affected by all power modifiers. I'm still working on builds I like, but the two distinct styles I have now are high-Duration for multiple bubbles and lots of enemy debuff/CC (less cost but less involvement), and low-Duration which focuses on bursting down tight waves and high-profile units with single bubbles and a higher damage multiplier (more volatile but more energy-hungry). But that's just how I run things.

I get you don't like Mag, but with the right style of play she can be pretty darn strong. Maybe she just doesn't match how you like to play. I picked up and started enjoying new Mag fairly quickly, and I attribute this to my enjoyment of control-focused tactics and her similarities to Banshee (my main). Play to your personal strengths and preferences, but understand that frames all work a little differently and not everything is in face value and raw surface-level damage.

[JohnMorte]

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Her strong niche was standing in the middle of a Corpus mission and pressing 2 over and over. Now we can use her against other factions. This is an improvement. Mag's job is now more complicated and tactical, relying on controlling points of the map and punishing enemies who cross these points with incredible damage. She now works a little more like Banshee, whose abilities do little to no damage on their own but set up massive amounts of it for other abilities/your weapons/your team.

Mag went from immensely strong against one faction (and somewhat decent against corrupted) to being average against all factions. A lot of frames are strong against 1-2 factions, some are strong against all of them. I'd rather have a frame strong against one faction on my team than one that's just average against all of them.

Banshee is strong against all factions and her abilities are interactive with most weapons. I can target Banshee weak spots with nearly all of my weapons, while Mag's Magnetize absorbs a lot of weapons fire, nullifying quite a large amount of weapons fire against specific targets that aren't the core target of magnetize, but still within the sphere. Only a few select weapons get around this limitation, and those weapons were probably going to kill the target(s) anyway.

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Frost has the same problem. The workaround is in trying to lure/Pull enemies into the zone, since it deals a portion of the total damage poured into it, and the core of the zone doubles all weapon damage on the target at max rank and 100% power strength. Here's where they moved the scaling damage people are missing from the old Polarize. Alternatively, you could just stand in the bubble defensively and be protected from all gunfire. Magnetize can work like Snowglobe, only it can also be used a little like Nyx's Absorb and furthermore gives the whole squad double weapon damage on that zone. Magnetize can grief, but a Mag who is conscious abut where she puts her zones will do much more good than harm.

Frost can be worked around. I walk into the snow globe and I can still target enemies. If Frost is unintentionally griefing with a globe and blocking fire, then he can shatter the globe(s) prematurely.

Yes, the core of the zone doubles damage against a single target. Meanwhile, Banshee increases damage to a whole host of targets. Frost shields you from gunfire AND you can take down enemies through the globe, which he can place anywhere as opposed to only on enemies on a targeted ability. Mag increases damage like Banshee and sort of shields like Frost, but fails to be spectacular at either and most players would probably just rather have a Frost or Banshee in a squad.

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Sorry to hear, but I don't have this issue. Mobility, basic point control, use of cover, communication with your team, Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct, Natural Talent, heck even Quick Thinking will mitigate this problem. If you like you can even cast Crush before Magnetize, since all surrounding enemies will be momentarily stunned.

Mobility doesn't help when Mag is so squishy that attempting to reposition against tougher opponents will just end up getting her utterly wrecked. For nearly every build I can imagine there is no room for Enemy Radar, Animal Instinct is too small ranged to really matter, and Quick Thinking is Warm Coat tier on such a squishy frame. Crush doesn't do much good when most enemies will just murder Mag from outside of the range.

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I get you don't like Mag, but with the right style of play she can be pretty darn strong. Maybe she just doesn't match how you like to play. I picked up and started enjoying new Mag fairly quickly, and I attribute this to my enjoyment of control-focused tactics and her similarities to Banshee (my main). Play to your personal strengths and preferences, but understand that frames all work a little differently and not everything is in face value and raw surface-level damage.

One problem with Mag is this: She takes too much work to see results. Banshee has several abilities that show results right away, and can be worked with immediately. Light up weak spots, shoot weak spots. Simplicity itself. With magnetize, it's much harder to work with it, and it is an ability that requires a target rather than just being cast on a group and shredding said group.

Another problem: She's too weak at the roles she's taken from other frames. Banshee is amazing at increasing damage, Mag is mediocre. Frost is great at shielding teammates from damage, Mag is mediocre. Rhino is great at disruption with his ult and is tanky to boot, while Mag is mediocre at disruption and is anything but tanky.

The new Mag could probably be decent at some point. But she needs a buff to her abilities and her %hp damage needs to be brought back as well, then she might be worthy to take over Banshee, Rhino, or Frost. As it stands, I don't see any reason to take her over any of those frames.

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, 3goats said:

Being jack of all trades does not lend itself to this toxic perspective of every frame existing only as a cog in the meta farming machine

Fixed that for you.

Never mind that Mag can stun, bubble, and do damage almost as well as all of those frames with a build that accommodates all 3 functions and a weapon damage amplification mechanic that dwarfs the competition and can be freely used by allies.  

Players would do well to forget the days of game trivialization, since DE seems to have finally woken up and started to put their foot down.  Comparing everything to a standard of "does it make the game not a game anymore" is a fruitless pursuit.  

[Rhaenxys]

I dont know if DE is gonna do changes but they should take a look at the bonus damage with pull and crush when enemies are magnetized, the bonus damage is only applied to the main/initial target affected by magnetize but not the rest of the enemies who are inside the bubble, losing a lot of damage potential, i dont see any reason to be like that, the damage isnt that high.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Rhaenxys

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, 3goats said:

Mag's Magnetise is a subpar Banshee sonar

Mag is super squishy

Banshee requires you to (theoretically) slow down and aim at the amplification points (ignoring "cover them in shiny glowing weakspots" multiple application playstyles); Mag places a big fat bubble on the target(s) so you can shoot for increased damage with a far larger effective hitbox due to the bubble's redirection.

Net result: Mag allows greater mobility while damaging targets of her power, allowing better evasion of enemy fire while making full use of the amplification.

 

Is the multiplier smaller? Sure. But it has other benefits, like compensating aim and keeping you on the move instead of standing there pinging bullets at Sonar spots while a Ballista lines up a shot from your flank, to say nothing of the damage-wall effect when placed strategically.

 

It's not like there's any functional use in an un-nuanced repetition of a mechanic (damage amplification in this case) anyway. At that point there's just A is/is-not better than B.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

19 hours ago, Mc_Clane said:

Mag lacks power balance. The cheap ones are certainly usefull and the expensive ones are serious crap. In that way she didn't change at all

And with the loss of why she's even a DPS frame: Power Strength to fit the cheesy Duration mods, for highly situational abilities.

Shield Polarize is like a Holy Paladin's Holy Shock ability: it's uniquely her frame's ability that did it's purpose (with Shield Transference) as a dual ability -- damage and refreshes her shields (instead of healing). DE changed that as it was too powerful, when it only needed a % cap on damage.

But DE redesigns it completely, nerfs through the floor her damage potential with the same cheese they say they wanted to eliminate, too (and now to use these duration abilities the mods we have, have to be switched out -- there went the idea of "play it your way". Now a fun spell is turned into a headache to even SEE to use; Magnetize is being cheesed by players as some block door/walk in (or worse using Pull to pull the mobs into it -- which now makes her a frame have 2 abilities tied to one situational ability).

A game about playing your way has become that min-maxer game that WF was suppose to NOT be about. Where players can switch mods out based on situation. With the mods as they are now, can't fit the situational mods without further gimping Mag, too. Now it requires BOTH Power Strength and Duration, and any mod taken away nerfs SP/Magnetize/Crush. -_-

[Duduminador]

Any chance we can keep Mag exactly as she is now? I guess not, right?

I'm having F*** tons of fun with her. Up to the point where my all time favorite (Volt) is having his spot seriously threatened, altho if you think about, that shouldn't be very hard considering how subpair his gameplay is. I've been making the craziest builds with her, long duration, low, high str, low, high eff and low, and all of them have a place in the game (with the single exception of range, must allways be high). I've been taking Mag to the craziest missions, stuff I never thought would be possible with her, barely having defense mods equiped (often none at all), Orokin survivals, void defense, Derelict defenses, Solo sortie Defenses. Taking My most deadlier weapons along... and barely using them.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Players would do well to forget the days of game trivialization, since DE seems to have finally woken up and started to put their foot down.  Comparing everything to a standard of "does it make the game not a game anymore" is a fruitless pursuit.  

DE is behind the times in game design.

Blizzard has done these things like MR and other "challenge" things, and pulling them back based on player participation data. WF is two years behind in that trend (but also are putting in enemy scaling, but in 2005 with Oblivion, showed the #1 mod for that game was to REMOVE ENEMY SCALING. Yep, this enemy scaling idea isn't knew but isn't liked by m-a-n-y players, because once maxed out the players want to feel powerful).

Min-maxers are at odds with multiple genres of games and play styles. Their constant demand for "challenge" not only divides the community, it inhibits the game play of MOST players. That's what the data is showing. MOST gamers play for fun and don't consider gaming a "chore" or a job. If it was either those, they'll all be pursuing professional gaming (where games are played by those min-max rules). They don't, because they want to have fun, socialize and chill, instead.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

Mag needs her unique trait back about being able to completely remove shields, and eventually armor...going back to % values and not fixed ones for scalability...i don't need nor want that she insta kills too ( OverPowered) , just remove shields like she used to...and an effective amor debuff also based on % values..

Edited June 5, 2016 by arm4geddon-117

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

DE is behind the times in game design.

Blizzard has done these things like MR and other "challenge" things, and pulling them back based on player participation data. WF is two years behind in that trend (but also are putting in enemy scaling, but in 2005 with Oblivion, showed the #1 mod for that game was to REMOVE ENEMY SCALING. Yep, this enemy scaling idea isn't knew but isn't liked by m-a-n-y players, because once maxed out the players want to feel powerful).

Min-maxers are at odds with multiple genres of games and play styles. Their constant demand for "challenge" not only divides the community, it inhibits the game play of MOST players. That's what the data is showing. MOST gamers play for fun and don't consider gaming a "chore" or a job. If it was either those, they'll all be pursuing professional gaming (where games are played by those min-max rules). They don't, because they want to have fun, socialize and chill, instead.

I'm having trouble understanding this reply (both it's content and the intent behind it.)

[Hypernaut1]

Polarize should at LEAST be a 100% magnetic proc.

And then have her abilities do more damage to mag procced enemies...bam synergy.

And have crush use shrapnel for extra damage from shred armor....bam synergy.

[JohnMorte]

8 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Fixed that for you.

Never mind that Mag can stun, bubble, and do damage almost as well as all of those frames with a build that accommodates all 3 functions and a weapon damage amplification mechanic that dwarfs the competition and can be freely used by allies.  

Players would do well to forget the days of game trivialization, since DE seems to have finally woken up and started to put their foot down.  Comparing everything to a standard of "does it make the game not a game anymore" is a fruitless pursuit.  

I would be fine if she was at least decent at all 3 functions or strong at 1-2 of them, but Mag isn't. Her abilties don't "dwarf the competition" and aren't "freely used by allies." They are weaker than their predecessors and I'd rather have one of those frames on a squad, because they're just that good at those abilities.

[RealPandemonium]

5 minutes ago, 3goats said:

I would be fine if she was at least decent at all 3 functions or strong at 1-2 of them, but Mag isn't. Her abilties don't "dwarf the competition" and aren't "freely used by allies." They are weaker than their predecessors and I'd rather have one of those frames on a squad, because they're just that good at those abilities.

Name one power that amplifies damage more effectively than Magnetize?  Outside of Magnetize bubbles blocking line of fire, having Mag on a team is a definite positive against all factions.  Crush and Pull are unchanged (still useful but not overpowered) and Polarize is strong at reasonable levels.  Biggest problem with the new Mag is that magnetize is disproportionally stronger than her other powers and is overpowered in general.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[JohnMorte]

5 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Name one power that amplifies damage more effectively than Magnetize?  Outside of Magnetize bubbles blocking line of fire, having Mag on a team is a definite positive against all factions.  Crush and Pull are unchanged (still useful but not overpowered) and Polarize is strong at reasonable levels.  Biggest problem with the new Mag is that magnetize is disproportionally stronger than her other powers and is overpowered in general.  

Banshee increases damage by a significant margin and can stun, Ember can increase her damage against all targets in range as well as stun them while doing a large amount of straight up damage on her own.