Fundamentally flawed enemies

[Yual]

Null is the only way to stop valkyrs.  -1

[Ibro156]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

My personal suggestions:

*Make nullie bubbles vulnerable to Punch-through

I have to disagree with you there. I would like the idea of being able to puncture through the shield. But the concept is to give moving cover for their allies. So instead they could give it some sort of health bar instead of how many pallets it hit. So if you have high dmg sniper, you could one shot the shield. Also, when the shield goes down, it stays down.

[TARINunit9]

46 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I Like how people like to make up nebulous terms like "artificial difficulty" to prove a point as if it means anything.

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK.

No, nullies do not to that. The strategy boils down to "run inside the bubble and use toxic damage"

Genuine difficulty is an enemy what encourages you to practice with tools at your disposal so you learn to use them correctly. Artificial difficulty just takes away your tools because "go screw yourself, that's why"

[IceColdHawk]

53 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK...

...and stop using useless crap like snipers and start using the things for real men! Shadow Step comes to mind!

Just finished your sentence.

[TARINunit9]

OP here. If anyone else has any objectively-flawed enemies they wanted to talk about, feel free. This was not intended to be nullifiers only

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

OP here. If anyone else has any objectively-flawed enemies they wanted to talk about, feel free. This was not intended to be nullifiers only

I would, if i can find another enemy as flawed as the nullifier

[(PSN)Saobie3]

Cant quote anyone because th site is spazzing out, but to point out what Hypernaut1 said, "artificial difficulty" is NOT a term i just made up. Try actually looking something up instead of slamming bogus crap around. Its a real thing, incase you didnt know.

 

Ill writ out the definition her: Fake/Artificial Difficulty is a term used to describe an enemy whos stats and/or design forces players to abandoned tactic in leu of cheap strategy. Basically, enemies like Nullies push you to cheese it instead of approach it intelligently. 

 

On top of that, i present my older argument; that Nullies take away a warframes ability, and thusly, its very role. No warframe can harm Nullies using their abilities, rendering your role useless when it comes to them. THAT is a fundimental flaw in an enemy. 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK.

They force you to stop spamming your abilities and do something else.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

4 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

The nullifiers are a flawless enemy in my opinion. Can be very strong against some stuff, but it's also pathetically weak, basically 0 against some other stuff.

A very flawed enemy could be considered a very high level grineer heavy. No weaknesses, if you don't count in cheese.

Grineer heavy weakness is both being vulnerable to disarm by all available methods and being vulnerable to finisher enablers from ash, inaros, Ivara etc.

Nullifiers are the only broken unit. That is corpus nullifiers. Disruptor drones are balanced. 

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

They force you to stop spamming your abilities and do something else.

You want a good example of that? Ironically enough it's the king of annoyance himself, Vay Hek

Vay Hek throws magnetic procs at you like donations being thrown at a charity on the last day of the financial year. But not only does this teach you to remain calm under fire and fall back on your actual skill, because the mag procs can't actually kill you, but there's actual counterplay involved. For one you can bring Trinity and use Link. For another you can actually dodge his proc beam if you pause your ability spam to read his movements and dodge accordingly

Nullies are not good, because there's no counterplay. Brute force is the only solution

[(PSN)Saobie3]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

You want a good example of that? Ironically enough it's the king of annoyance himself, Vay Hek

Vay Hek throws magnetic procs at you like donations being thrown at a charity on the last day of the financial year. But not only does this teach you to remain calm under fire and fall back on your actual skill, because the mag procs can't actually kill you, but there's actual counterplay involved. For one you can bring Trinity and use Link. For another you can actually dodge his proc beam if you pause your ability spam to read his movements and dodge accordingly

Nullies are not good, because there's no counterplay. Brute force is the only solution

*Insert artificial difficulty her* > Nullies

Vay Hek is super aggrivating for me, but not because of his very generous procs. Mostly because he moves like a fly on the wall and we Tenno have the flyswatter, but cant actually hit the fly to save our Lotus. 

 

At the very least i cant. *Insert use of Ignis here*

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Woofsie said:

While annoying, I wouldn't exactly call them flawed. (Though I haven't had much trouble with them that much.)

There is no functional defense against their ability aside from outright killing them and they have a tendency to lurk.

That's flawed imo.

[djternan]

I would say nullifiers are poorly designed only for snipers.  The things I like about them is that they're fairly flimsy and their bubble is obvious.  I would be perfectly fine with them if they could be killed with bows/snipers.

 

Enemies I really don't like are energy leech eximi, ancients, combas/scrambas, and bursas.  The first three give no visible clue as to their aura and can affect things through doors and walls.  Bursas are really annoying with the knockdown spam.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

8 hours ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

The nullifiers are a flawless enemy in my opinion. Can be very strong against some stuff, but it's also pathetically weak, basically 0 against some other stuff.

A very flawed enemy could be considered a very high level grineer heavy. No weaknesses, if you don't count in cheese.

They are not flawless because as the OP points out they keep you from using quite a large selection of guns.  Snipers in particular.

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I Like how people like to make up nebulous terms like "artificial difficulty" to prove a point as if it means anything.

According to DE, nullifiers are working as intended. They force you to actually THINK.

Nullifiers are easy to deal with, but they massively limit the weapons you can take to half the game's content which is a mistake in a game about choice.  I would use snipers all the time if nullifiers were not a thing.  Lining up punchthrough shots and working the multiplier is much more fun and involved than just inaccurately bursting down bubbles with a boltor.

8 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

I understand that, and I don't care what I look like anyway.

For a long time I've noticed that the better part of the game's problems are actually problems with the players, not the game. Not to say that WF doesn't have objective flaws, but Nullifiers are not one of them.

Yes they are a problem because of the massive available weapon lockout they cause.  It gets really boring really fast needing to use the same weapon in 50% of the game's content because there happen to be nullifiers in the mission.

8 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

I come here with an unpopular opinion that Nullifiers are fine as is and shouldn't be touched. However trite the "git gud" phrase sounds, it is true.

The mechanic itself is fine.  It's the fact all low fire rate weapons are useless in nullifier missions.  I'm fine with them being a nerf to the tonkor and simulor, but snipers should not be left out in the cold.

 

Long story short.  I WANT MY SNIPERS BACK.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

6 hours ago, yual said:

Null is the only way to stop valkyrs.  -1

Clearly you have never seen an energy leech.

[taiiat]

yet again, like a broken record - Weapons being able to pierce Nullifier Shields defeats their entire existence.
you can't complain they're unfair or artificial difficulty or something - but then propose a 'solution' that sums up to 'let me cheat'.

however, as i've noted many times, Nullifier Shields should categorize Weapons so that they impede them about equally. 

 

i find much more problem with Enemies which do not telegraph their actions. a Nullifier Shield is more telegraphed than the f...ing pony express so i do not find a fundamental problem, only minor number adjustments.

[Xzorn]

Scorpions: Dodge Roll, kill outside Harpoon range.

Ancients: Dodge Roll, Kill outside Harpoon range, Priority target.

Bombers: Dodge Roll. Zig Zag Forward approach. Terrain Blocks, Shoot incoming Rockets.

Gunners: Hit-Scan weapon = Kill before it kills you, LoS  -Fail scaling design

Nullifiers: Use specific weapons, Slide Attack RNG, Priority Target  -Fail design

Commanders: Hit-scan weapon = Kill before it kills you, LoS, Targeted teleport + Stun -Fail design

Napalms: Dodge Roll, Poor graphical representation of AoE.= Needs touch up.

Bursas: Dodge Roll behind, Inconsistent faction HP types causes eHP scaling problems.

Rampart: Distance and Speed, LoS + Wait, Sneak behind. Poorly designed hit box forcing melee from behind to miss, Targets through walls. = Needs touch up.

Scorcher: Kill outside range, Enemy Ignis in general has scaling problems similar to hit-scan but without LoS options = Needs touch up (again)

Hyekka Master: Kill outside range, Enemy Ignis scaling problems, Fire Bomb hurts areal players, = Needs touch up (again)

 

I omit CC and abilities as an option to give example on how some of these units are dealt with by a player's own interaction. I prolly missed a few options.

Notice there's only one enemy that requires you to change your load out options, what frame you pick as well as weapon, all others you can use any means you want, despite some still being a failed design or having scaling problems.

I also omit enemies you can 100% avoid like Senitents.

As example: I could take 5 lvl 1725 Bombers without using abilities or CC (Given ammo) but 2 Gunners of the same level would near 100% of the time kill me. This is because one has good scaling design and the other does not.

 

-Hit-scan weapons are a fail design in a PvE game when they do more than little ticks of damage. There aren't a lot of fair options available to deal with that type of enemy, which is why many Grineer in general are a failed scaling design, thankfully Gunners are usually the only post lvl 120 ones we deal with.

 

 

[(PSN)Saobie3]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Scorpions: Dodge Roll, kill outside Harpoon range.

Ancients: Dodge Roll, Kill outside Harpoon range, Priority target.

Bombers: Dodge Roll. Zig Zag Forward approach. Terrain Blocks, Shoot incoming Rockets.

Gunners: Hit-Scan weapon = Kill before it kills you, LoS  -Fail scaling design

Nullifiers: Use specific weapons, Slide Attack RNG, Priority Target  -Fail design

Commanders: Hit-scan weapon = Kill before it kills you, LoS, Targeted teleport + Stun -Fail design

Napalms: Dodge Roll, Poor graphical representation of AoE.= Needs touch up.

Bursas: Dodge Roll behind, Inconsistent faction HP types causes eHP scaling problems.

Rampart: Distance and Speed, LoS + Wait, Sneak behind. Poorly designed hit box forcing melee from behind to miss, Targets through walls. = Needs touch up.

Scorcher: Kill outside range, Enemy Ignis in general has scaling problems similar to hit-scan but without LoS options = Needs touch up (again)

Hyekka Master: Kill outside range, Enemy Ignis scaling problems, Fire Bomb hurts areal players, = Needs touch up (again)

 

I omit CC and abilities as an option to give example on how some of these units are dealt with by a player's own interaction. I prolly missed a few options.

Notice there's only one enemy that requires you to change your load out options, what frame you pick as well as weapon, all others you can use any means you want, despite some still being a failed design or having scaling problems.

I also omit enemies you can 100% avoid like Senitents.

As example: I could take 5 lvl 1725 Bombers without using abilities or CC (Given ammo) but 2 Gunners of the same level would near 100% of the time kill me. This is because one has good scaling design and the other does not.

 

-Hit-scan weapons are a fail design in a PvE game when they do more than little ticks of damage. There aren't a lot of fair options available to deal with that type of enemy, which is why many Grineer in general are a failed scaling design, thankfully Gunners are usually the only post lvl 120 ones we deal with.

 

 

We all know HOW to kill these enemies, i dont think any of us here are stupid enough to not employ basic and obvious tactic.

 

The problem is how inconsistantly said tactics seem to work. Especially in regards to the cyborgish ancients and telepathic scorpions

[RS219]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Saobie3 said:

No exaggeration here. I actually find Ancients MORE annoying. And its not like i havnt tried avoiding it. The problem is for both units it comes with next to no warning. If you are not already aware of said enemy being there AND aware your in range, theres an extremely likely chance you will get grappled. Iv been up and behind an Ancient, more than once, and still got grappled by his back-arm grapple because thats th only logical explanation; that they have a 3rd arm on their back. My beef with them is that, even if i do the same thing to avoid the grapple that worked on time, it almost never works twice. Every time iv avoided it has been pure luck.

Try this: When you see an Ancient going to grapple you, knock it down with whatever, Sonicor mayb. Revel, as it somehow still grapples you evn though you blew it into the stratosphere. Magic.

That's why I always pretty much come prepared when I charge towards the ancient/scorpion. The safest assumption is that they all have a grappling hook ready (if they haven't used it on someone else yet) and to always be ready for that incoming hook. And while the "Try this" bit sounds strange, it appears that the hook acts as its own independent projectile, kinda like a slow-moving bullet that the enemy happens to have to stay still for it to travel. Anyways, yeah, Scorpions are the bigger issue for me since all they do is throw one arm out; a much faster telegraph with less room to react.

10 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

...you can pop nullie bubbles with high rate-of-fire weapons, it makes low rate-of-fire weapons like bows almost useless against Corpus. It goes back to my thesis: it just takes away your options, and having your options taken away isn't fun

The rate of popping a nullifier bubble actually depends on the base damage of the low RoF weapon itself. The distance a bubble sinks in the more damage said weapon does to it, the real issue is that crit will not apply to the bubble, so weapons that heavily rely on crit are shafted. Slow RoF weapons like the Cernos and Dread will still pop the bubble in 5 shots or so, so it's still alot better than firing 80 shots into it with the Soma Prime. Also, a little preparation by equipping a hard-hitting secondary (Vaykor Marelok) won't hurt too.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, RS219 said:

The rate of popping a nullifier bubble actually depends on the base damage of the low RoF weapon itself

A Boltor Prime dealing 400 damage per hit and an Opticor dealing 10k will pop the bubble in the same number of shots. And since that number of shots is more than 5, it makes the Opticor near-useless

(Not that I even like the Opticor, it's just the best example. Your Cernos example is actually really bad because it would take, no joke, about seven seconds to pop the bubble, compared to about three with the Soma Prime)

Edited June 25, 2016 by TARINunit9

[-N7-Leonhart]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Grineer heavy weakness is both being vulnerable to disarm by all available methods and being vulnerable to finisher enablers from ash, inaros, Ivara etc.

That's exactly what I said. What else can you consider these few frames powers if not very limited? And don't tell me Ash is not full of cheese.

Nullifiers can be taken down by any frame, if it has the proper tools, or just get close and melee. The higher the level, the weaker the Nullifier becomes compared to those grineer heavy units.

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 hour ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

That's exactly what I said. What else can you consider these few frames powers if not very limited? And don't tell me Ash is not full of cheese.

Nullifiers can be taken down by any frame, if it has the proper tools, or just get close and melee. The higher the level, the weaker the Nullifier becomes compared to those grineer heavy units.

Yep, sure. Go in and lose all the buffs/debuffs going thus waste energy on recasting over and over and over again.

Brilliant solution. 10/10

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

A Boltor Prime dealing 400 damage per hit and an Opticor dealing 10k will pop the bubble in the same number of shots. And since that number of shots is more than 5, it makes the Opticor near-useless

(Not that I even like the Opticor, it's just the best example. Your Cernos example is actually really bad because it would take, no joke, about seven seconds to pop the bubble, compared to about three with the Soma Prime)

See, I think that's a sign of a WELL DESIGNED enemy. It gives you something more to think about than "MOAR POWER". There should be more enemies where the best answer isn't simply "tonkor".

And I'm sorry, I don't believe anyone that claims they would use snipers all the time if not for nullifiers. First off, the hordes of swarming enemies is enough of a deterrent to using snipers, don't use Nullys as a scale goat. Secondly, who uses a sniper along with another low RoF secondary? And thirdly....

Most weapons can kill a nullifier anyway (yes, including snipers and bows). If you hit its damage cap, it takes no more than 10 rounds to kill them, and yes you have time to reload before the bubble grows again. 

Posters like to parrot this myth of being limited, even though it's definitely not true.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

25 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

See, I think that's a sign of a WELL DESIGNED enemy. It gives you something more to think about than "MOAR POWER". There should be more enemies where the best answer isn't simply "tonkor".

And I'm sorry, I don't believe anyone that claims they would use snipers all the time if not for nullifiers. First off, the hordes of swarming enemies is enough of a deterrent to using snipers, don't use Nullys as a scale goat. Secondly, who uses a sniper along with another low RoF secondary? And thirdly....

Most weapons can kill a nullifier anyway. If you hit its damage cap, it takes no more than 10 rounds to kill them, and yes you have time to reload before the bubble grows again. 

Posters like to parrot this myth of being limited, even though it's definitely not true.

Favorite loadout is Vectis Prime and sonicor.  Thanks for disregarding my opinion just because you believe I don't exist.

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Favorite loadout is Vectis Prime and sonicor.  Thanks for disregarding my opinion just because you believe I don't exist.

If you have an issue with that load out, that's on you. 

I can claim I like to use the mk1 Bratton. That doesn't mean the game needs to cater to me, especially if I'm in the minority.  

The game gives us many weapons and options to deal with the challenges of the game.

Also....you can STILL kill nullifiers with that loadout.