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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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Now, like some people I didn't like the switch to fissures over void keys; However, I do like some changes. I'd like to contrast what I enjoy about the new system, and what I wish they retained from the old system with the hopes that fissures can be improved to be better than void keys.


First the good. Missions like capture, and spy are no longer run and done missions like they were with void keys; The fissures added a more eventful feel to missions that were lackluster in my opinion. The improvement system for relics is interesting and adds more interaction to the process of getting prime parts. The selection 1 of 4 drops is very very nice, and a good change to the completely uncontrolled drop tables of the old void keys. The one in four and improvement of keys makes the randomness feel more controllable; I don't yet know if it actually better. Finally, the clarity of the system is vastly improved. Rather than drop tables on google docs, the potential gear is listed right in the menu; this is a vast improvement.


Now the not so good. My biggest gripe is that on longer missions like Survival and Defense, there is no risk reward anymore. The fissure system made these run and done missions rather than the somewhat tense affairs they could be with void keys. With the fissure being a secondary purpose, there isn't much reason to stay after you complete it. By shifting the drops to a secondary objective, the primary objective becomes almost irrelevant. Contrast this to the void keys, where the objective would essentially refresh every 5mins/5waves for as long as you could hold on. Hold on too long and the key was for nothing, but push forward and get more drops. This tension between risk/reward was a huge driving factor on void keys, and as a result we played them almost exclusively. This new update strips away the bread and butter of my warframe experience; That is what I miss most about void keys, the tension of having a good item in the bag and pushing forward with the hopes of something better putting it all on the line. 

 

TL:DR The Fissure System is more accessible for new players, and breaths life into stale modes like Capture, and Spy Missions; However, it renders longer missions like Defense and Survival pointless and unrewarding, where there once was compelling risk-reward at play. 

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Fissurest could be more factionist with corrupted dudes spawned by rifts being tied to faction. So grineer-corrupted grinner and so on.

It is a bit weird to see sudenly crewmans on galleons walking peacefully.

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The new Fissures are a lot better... bravo on improving on pretty much everything that needed to be improved on.

Relics seem decent thus far, but it irks me that you guys had to throw more grind into the mix when you finally took a step towards reducing it a bit (adding new relics for new drops as opposed to swapping out the drop pools a la keys).

At this point I don't think you can justify the Prime Vault in a way that would satisfy me, personally... though I didn't have a huge problem with it under the key system.

The random buff seems kinda pointless to me, though.

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So, according to this post, it seems as though Prime Items are being cleanly divided into Common, Uncommon, and Rare droprates. I would like to request that these rarities be denoted during the Rewards screen.

I recently ran a mission and - amusingly - all of the pieces for Odonata Prime came up in the rewards:

MRAVjjk.jpg

Odonata Prime wasn't what I was farming for, and I had no idea which piece was the rarest off the top of my head. So I selected Harness. I now realize that Wings would've been the wiser decision as it's rarer. I think it would be helpful if the rarity was listed along with the rewards somehow so we don't have to try and memorize them.

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I must say, bravo. These new changes that came with SotR (13) have really fixed most of what concerned me personally.

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Sill basically no improvement. Endless missions are still pointless and fissures are still boring and far too easy content. And while being able to hold more void traces is a good thing. That gets kinda balanced out by the lower amount of traces people can earn per mission... Not to mention that the changed ducat values of prime parts will make it even harder to farm ducats for Baro...

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Ok, I got some more solo missions in, most Neo fissures so around level 30-35.  Exterminate and capture are pretty good, the fissures that extra challenge to it.  Spy...eh not too impressed, since, as already mentioned, the point of spy is to not get seen.  Probably doesn't help that the Neo fissure I was playing was on the Neptune style Corpus tile set, which has a lot of choke points that fill up very quickly with corrupted.  I had a narrow corridor, which was the only way through, filled with about a half dozen bombardiers and heavy gunners, supported by a couple ancients and protected by a nullifier or two.  Maybe if everyone wasn't on alert all the time, or perhaps the faction occupying the mission is too busy fighting the Orokin invaders and not turn all their attention on you unless you do something silly.

Excavation, not a fan.  One mission I literally could not complete because very few power carriers spawned yet I was inundated with corrupted.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad with 3 or 4, but solo was more frustrating than fun, it was difficult to keep the first excavator alive, even with a decent amount of power dropping.

Thinking about how survival and mobile defense will work, probably fine, but I'll have to give the a go.  The way reactant works now is much better than it was in the first iteration, there is no bollocks with time and no spawns.  So far, with the exception of excavation, a improvement over the first go.

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Loved the old Void system, was able to farm it all day long, solo or otherwise, Survival days, Sabotage days, Defense days.  The new void system cant hold my attention, I find myself in front of the TV more than Warframe now.  Not a fan of the new system at all.

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1 hour ago, EHMchaos said:

Loved the old Void system, was able to farm it all day long, solo or otherwise, Survival days, Sabotage days, Defense days.  The new void system cant hold my attention, I find myself in front of the TV more than Warframe now.  Not a fan of the new system at all.

I respect your opinion but for me, it's the polar opposite. Getting to run different mission each day for Primes is a huge boon.

Last night, I scored the rest of my Vectis and half a boar from Exterminate missions. Which I love. Whereas, I hated T4 Interception, now I have a variety of options for those parts.

I love this new system.

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13 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

So, according to this post, it seems as though Prime Items are being cleanly divided into Common, Uncommon, and Rare droprates. I would like to request that these rarities be denoted during the Rewards screen.

I recently ran a mission and - amusingly - all of the pieces for Odonata Prime came up in the rewards:

  Reveal hidden contents

MRAVjjk.jpg

 

Odonata Prime wasn't what I was farming for, and I had no idea which piece was the rarest off the top of my head. So I selected Harness. I now realize that Wings would've been the wiser decision as it's rarer. I think it would be helpful if the rarity was listed along with the rewards somehow so we don't have to try and memorize them.

This very much. I think Bronze/Silver/Gold markings somewhere like the mods have would work pretty well.

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5 hours ago, EHMchaos said:

Loved the old Void system, was able to farm it all day long, solo or otherwise, Survival days, Sabotage days, Defense days.  The new void system cant hold my attention, I find myself in front of the TV more than Warframe now.  Not a fan of the new system at all.

None of us wouldn't be as pissed, if DE had simply implemented the fissures along side the old void.

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an other thing, Infested exterminates dont drop enough stuff to crak open your relic ... or they are falling through the map ... well done de, well done the next fail update ... i am so @(*()$ pissed, just breing back the old void ffs

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With the new fissure system introduced in SoTR: Hotifx 13 would be nice to see fissures missions appearing as Archwing exterminate, sabotage or mobile defense (rush and pursuit are time-limited missions so it can be a problem split the focus between the objective and the fissure). This would not only add variety to prime parts farm but also give players more reasons to play archwing missions and gear up their arsenal.

Looking forward to hear your feedback.

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My experience with Void 2.0 is that it's definitely a bit less grindy, less RNG, but ultimately at the peril of it being less rewarding. Indefinitely less rewarding, might I add.

The reason I say indefinitely is because of the following reasons:

  • Void relics are worth much less than what a void key was worth. You get 1 item from a relic, and that's it. I liked using 1 void key, running a survival indefinitely and getting rewarded for my time and effort until such a point where it got too difficult.
  • There doesn't seem to be any point to endless fissure missions. Why stick around when you get the same reward count as you would running a capture fissure? You get the same number of traces, and the same amount of rewards; one reward; one prime part.
  • Gone are the credit rewards for running capture missions in the void. In fact the credit rewards for the whole game have been nerfed to oblivion, making it even more difficult for new players.

 

So yeah, I do have suggestions for this that I genuinely think would make it meet the "middle-ground" of Void 1.0 and 2.0. Right now I think Void 2.0 does not reward you anywhere near enough compared to Void 1.0, but I understand that DE need to make money and so nerfing the number of prime parts people can get for 1 of their keys is fair.

But nerfing it right down to only being able to get 1 prime part (which, granted, you can choose from 4 of if none of them are forma) is not really fair and, counter-productively, makes it more grindy not because you have to use another relic, but because you can't stay in the "endless" fissure mission you are doing to be rewarded as you progress.

Yes, that's the way it was before and that change would make it almost the exact same as Void 1.0 if it was rotation based. But here is what I propose:

  1. Attach a pre-set credit reward value to each relic. This would make it easy for new players to progress because they can grind for ages on excav if they want, and have plenty of low tier relics they can use to get the small amount of credits they need at their level.
  • Lith - 4000 Credits for completing the fissure mission + the normal mission reward. 
  • Meso - 6000 Credits for completing the fissure mission + the normal mission reward. 
  • Neo - 8000 Credits for completing the fissure mission + the normal mission reward.
  • Axi - 11000 Credits for completing the fissure mission + the normal mission reward.

 

Another suggestion would be to make relics award a maximum of 3 items from the drop table per relic, and only award these on endless relic missions where the player gets to choose what they want from the drop table, from all of their squads relics, at every 20 minute mark (rotation C). This should be presented in a way much like the screen you get on interception missions, for example; this could be used to allow players to select what they want from their relic or the relics of their squadmates every time they get to rotation C.

This is similar to the old system, but it increases the amount of parts people can acquire from 1 relic to a cap of 3, and prevents people from getting as increasingly bored and zombified than doing something like a T4 interception for 5 hours. That wasn't fun. Fissure missions are actually eventful, and this proposed change reduces the minimum mission time to acquire all 3 parts from the relic to at least 60 minutes per relic. It's a bit grindy, but it appears to be what DE wants us to do anyway. 

I feel this new system is also paving the way to cater for the people who like a grind, i.e "endless" missions, and at the same time to those who are impatient and want a reward as quickly as possible. I know my suggestions don't exactly make endless fissures "endless," but if people want to run missions for a longer time than 60 minutes then by all means, give players the freedom of choice to use up to 3 relics per fissure mission (only if it is an endless mission), consuming 1 relic every 60 minutes, or consuming 1 still if they choose to extract at 40 minutes, rewarding them the two parts they selected and retaining their other 2 relics. This extends the total possible reward from running 1 "endless" fissure to 9 things from the drop tables, taking a total of 3 hours,

I believe the above is an improvement to the old Void 1.0 endless mission types, because you don't need to wait 20 minutes for your chance at something good. Instead, you do wait 20 minutes and get a chance at selecting something you want from the respective drop tables, and can either extract or wait another 20 for your chance at being able to choose something else, potentially the thing you wanted in the first place, rather than being completely reliant on RNG.

 

 

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Overall, I enjoy the new system. Now that primes are located within all the various tile-sets, along with the fact that the individual items aren't locked into certain mission types, the game is far more refreshing to me. No longer grinding just the void endlessly is wonderful.

There are of course some things I'd like to see added, some of which have been addressed by others:

One, is to somehow show the rarity of each item in the prime selection screen post fissure completion. Either go with the mod aesthetic of bronze, silver and gold, or simply have "common / uncommon / rare" or even "C / U / R" added to each box.

Secondly, there needs to be a map icon, preferably just a small dot, for the fissure reactant drops. This would greatly help in searching for them and would help prevent having to backtrack as often.

Thirdly, endless fissure missions need to have more incentive to keep us playing longer. Whether it's the ability to get multiple prime parts or something entirely new, it needs something to spice it up.

Lastly,  if I'm correct, I believe I heard in the last Dev Stream about how you all were saying that since we are going through relics far more quickly than we did with keys, that you were brainstorming ideas about other ways in which we could get relics. One idea that I had would be that enemies all across the game could have a chance to drop what would be called "relic shards". Each enemy would have their own (very low) drop chance, with eximus having the highest. The level of the enemy would also come into play, as the higher it went, the more shards they'd drop. You could then use these shards at the Forge, or perhaps the Relic Stand itself on your Liset, and combine them into relics. Leo relics would require the least amount of shards, and every proceeding era would require more and more, with Axi costing the most. The relic obtained through this process would be a random relic of the era you chose. I think this system would be interesting because not only would it give players more relics and a new way to get them, but it would also allow a little bit of control into which ones they receive.

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Please consider removing Spy from the Fissure rotation. The mission type is already very lucrative. But more importantly, its also geared for solo players preferring Stealth. And the Fissures are geared for loud, run and gun groups. One of these things...its not like the other...

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I feel that the new system should allow more reactant to collect, and these reactant collected have chances to farm for more void traces in a single mission.

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5 hours ago, ShadowOfRahl said:

One, is to somehow show the rarity of each item in the prime selection screen post fissure completion. Either go with the mod aesthetic of bronze, silver and gold, or simply have "common / uncommon / rare" or even "C / U / R" added to each box.

I agree about this, it would make picking a lot easier, it's not like it's secret information which drops are rare and which ones aren't, but playing a memory game or having a drop list next to you (what I have) shouldn't be a thing in picking the reward...

Secondly, there needs to be a map icon, preferably just a small dot, for the fissure reactant drops. This would greatly help in searching for them and would help prevent having to backtrack as often.

or... you know... make them visible on the map if you have a loot radar on... which it was before the last patch... why remove this?

Thirdly, endless fissure missions need to have more incentive to keep us playing longer. Whether it's the ability to get multiple prime parts or something entirely new, it needs something to spice it up.

DE does not like endless, neither do they want to encourage you in endless play...

Lastly,  if I'm correct, I believe I heard in the last Dev Stream about how you all were saying that since we are going through relics far more quickly than we did with keys, that you were brainstorming ideas about other ways in which we could get relics. One idea that I had would be that enemies all across the game could have a chance to drop what would be called "relic shards". Each enemy would have their own (very low) drop chance, with eximus having the highest. The level of the enemy would also come into play, as the higher it went, the more shards they'd drop. You could then use these shards at the Forge, or perhaps the Relic Stand itself on your Liset, and combine them into relics. Leo relics would require the least amount of shards, and every proceeding era would require more and more, with Axi costing the most. The relic obtained through this process would be a random relic of the era you chose. I think this system would be interesting because not only would it give players more relics and a new way to get them, but it would also allow a little bit of control into which ones they receive.

I think the shard thing is a great idea, but then probably too many relics might be forged, because people will grind mobs and thats not something DE wants...

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Here is my current experience with void missions: Speed runs  are over in less than 5 minutes with players of very high mastery ranks doing low level missions, running Ember prime with simulors or ignis or other weapons of mass destruction and getting most of the kills. I had missions with 0 kills until I started running my own regular ember and stealing kills from other players of lower mastery ranks  and lower damage frames or weapons. Beginners can now gather "prime junk" with no risk or effort but that can't possibly give them a real sense of accomplishment.

Now if I'm not doing the killing at the head of the pack, it's "follow the yellow brick road"  all the way to the exit and pick up the yellow balls left by the master tennos with my carrier sentinel vacuuming other leftovers. Killing is not required. On one mission I wanted to get kills and I reached the exit with 9/10 balls and got no reward. Another one crashed after the mission was completed while 3/4 players were waiting on the exit pad for a straggler (to gather his yellow balls i guess) so no reward either. Fortunately those were only low value Lith relics not upgraded. Now I don't feel like using my upgraded high level relics containing the prime items I really want because they are rare and easily wasted with all the new crashes and bugs. For me the game has been exceptionally crash-prone since the spirits of the rail update. Most crashes occur on the loading screen or on arrival but many occur at random times.

The increase in the limit of void traces with mastery rank is a good thing.

Getting rid of the fissure timer was a good thing.

I think the best way to currently get the item you want is to find 4 people you can really trust and do the mission 4 times with each time a different person using the same type of radiant relic. Sounds easy right? Yeah. Good luck with that.

I used to have so much argon I couldn't use it all. Now it's rare to get an alert for a single crystal. I'll go raid the derelict now...

Multitasking has gone mad: it's hard enough to extract those hostages who have no self-preservation AI while fighting mobs, fending off the stalker or syndicate hit squads, getting to scan the cephalon fragments, getting synthesis of the cephalon target before some well meaning person kills it, or extracting before the timer runs out in sabotage and oh yes did I mention collect those yellow balls? I'm probably forgetting something else. Oh well... Bursas or nullifyers maybe? Spy fissure missions... really?

I don't know about you guys, but for me fun is an integral part of the gaming experience... Are you having fun yet?

I had fun in the old void with group missions, or solo, hunting for caches in sabotage missions, finding  secret rooms and doing the parkour rooms and being able to plan missions to increase the chances of getting what I was hunting for. More skill was needed and there was more reward. I miss the orokin tileset and the classical music theme.

Here are a few suggestions:

  • Bring back the old void
  • Or make a new type of mission called Exploration needing 4 people with the same type of relic to open a portal to the void like the portal in sabotage and have this portal bring you to a different plane like the game Oblivion or the movie Stargate where the orokin tileset could be used or maybe something completely different... Exploration of unknown worlds should be rewarded like dungeons in Skyrim those could be planets or alien ships or ruins...
  • Invent a way to prevent argon from degrading; after all it's supposed to be a very stable chemical molecule...

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1 hour ago, Shorrkhan said:

Here is my current experience with void missions: Speed runs  are over in less than 5 minutes with players of very high mastery ranks doing low level missions, running Ember prime with simulors or ignis or other weapons of mass destruction and getting most of the kills. I had missions with 0 kills until I started running my own regular ember and stealing kills from other players of lower mastery ranks  and lower damage frames or weapons. Beginners can now gather "prime junk" with no risk or effort but that can't possibly give them a real sense of accomplishment.

What else did you expect? You really can't expect higher MR player with endgame gear to get exited by content designed for ~MR5 player with beginner gear. Those missions are not even remotely challenging and so it's Ember and having the low level enemies just drop dead since that is usually the fastest way to finish the missions.

In the old Void at least it was possible to raise the difficulty by staying longer in missions. That option is gone now. All Void Missions are now basically like the old pre-SOTR non-nightmare alerts. And those were always basically just a short exercise in speed-running.

There needs to be an option to make fissure missions harder for higher MR player. Maybe nightmare fissions? Or sortie level fissures? Or both in one? Providing maybe a better base drop chance for rare items in exchange for the much higher difficulty? We need something. Because fissures as they are now are painfully easy and I'm already bored of them.

Repetition + far too low difficult level makes farming for prime parts feel more like chore than ever. It's like taking out the garbage. It's not challenging. It
's not hard. And it sure as hell isn't intellectually stimulating. But the thing is I kinda need to take out the garbage from time to time, I do not need to play Warframe. And making your game feel like a chore, and an unnecessary one at that, is not good game design and is very unlikely to help with player retention.

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I would just like to say that in my opinion this system is worse than the previous one. And the change from a singular activated fissure to randomly spawning ones is also a turn for the worse. There's a couple of reasons why I think that... :

  • It's Less (time) Efficient - this mostly applies to endless missions, which I'll touch on in another point again, but for now I simply want to point out that in the past, one survival/defense key could be used to acquire anywhere from 1 to 20 prime parts (and more if you had a good, dedicated team) and now every relic is a single prime part that you get from a single mission. This means that where previously you could do one mission for 20 minutes with one key and get 4 prime drops, now you have to do 4 missions, use up 4 relics for the same 4 prime parts. This also means that farming relics will take more time than farming keys. Getting one survival key meant you had a chance to get a lot of prime parts, and with relics it doesn't matter what relic you get and what mission you do - you get only one prime part per relic/mission. In short - it's not lowering the grind, it's increasing it.
  • It made the actual Void redundant - What I mean is, that there is far less incentive to play the 'planet' void, then there was to go to void missions when using the key system. The enemies are no longer unique to the area and the only reason I see myself going there is needing Argon Crystals - which also makes me personally very frustrated, that the only (outside of special events) place to acquire Argon Crystals has pretty much no other point to it. So rather than getting multiple rewards for my time (Argon Crystals and Prime Parts) now I have to do both separately: go to the void for Argon Crystals and then find fissures for prime parts.
    And if you don't need Argon Crystals, then you pretty much don't need to ever go to the void, outside of some alters or other events.
  • It segregated the "recruit" chat - When you want a particular item, now it's far more difficult to find others to help you in the recruit chat. It's simple math: in the key system, every person that wanted an item from A,B or C rotation, went to the same key and sought others for those keys. However now, if you want an item from a certain relic, you have to look for other people that want the items front he exact same relic. So even without taking everything else into account, you're 3 times less likely to get 3 other players to farm prime parts with. It is even more highlighted by the relic refinement system, that had me kicked from a squad quite a few times (they disbanded as soon as I joined after inviting me to a H "X" relic farm) simply because I didn't have the exact same refinement level on my relic (it can be assumed I didn't want the same items as them)
  • It's very unrewarding - I mean the reactant system in particular. There is absolutely no reward for gathering (or even option to gather) reactant beyond the 10 you need to open the relic. This makes seeing reactant lying around everywhere (especially if there's a Necros in the squad) and knowing that it's absolutely useless very frustrating. Moreover, this makes the endless missions (defense/survival/excavation) even more unrewarding than any other type of mission. There is literally NO POINT in staying in the mission any longer than it takes to gather 10 reactant and unlock extraction (so first 5 min/5waves/100 cryotic). There is literally NO REWARD for staying longer. You don't get more traces, 'normal' rewards are disabled, reactant just litters the ground being absolutely useless... This makes endless missions no different than all others -> get 10 reactant, rush objective, rush extraction.

Apparently here I am naive enough to think that game developers care about the stuff their players write to them. I hope my opinion will be taken into account, especially since I saw a lot of similar feelings about the update both online and on the forums. Alas, past experiences with game developers make me believe it'll be ignored and the game will go in the direction the developers want it to, not the players.
I'd like to be wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong.

With kind regards
A loyal player enjoying your game...

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