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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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I disapprove of the cap for void traces being at 100.  Why am I being penalized for not knowing right then and there which relic I would like to enhance?

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After some thought, I've realized that as it is, using void relics is essentially like a keyshare compressed into one mission.  Everyone loses a key, everyone gets four chances at a reward... but the problem is, whereas keyshares in the past let you walk home with four rewards, void fissures only let you go home with one, despite the same cost.

If you asked me, my suggestion would be to have relics whose rewards aren't chosen remain unconsumed, so as to at least slightly lessen the cost.  It's not a perfect solution, but it's something.

As for the inevitable tedium of fissure farming getting to people... maybe make void fissures work differently depending on the type of mission you're in?  Or just have one of several random types of fissure missions chosen for each run?

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25 minutes ago, AlakiNuva said:

After some thought, I've realized that as it is, using void relics is essentially like a keyshare compressed into one mission.  Everyone loses a key, everyone gets four chances at a reward... but the problem is, whereas keyshares in the past let you walk home with four rewards, void fissures only let you go home with one, despite the same cost.

If you asked me, my suggestion would be to have relics whose rewards aren't chosen remain unconsumed, so as to at least slightly lessen the cost.  It's not a perfect solution, but it's something.

As for the inevitable tedium of fissure farming getting to people... maybe make void fissures work differently depending on the type of mission you're in?  Or just have one of several random types of fissure missions chosen for each run?

Well... the thing is, while "unused" relics are indeed consumed, I feel like that's a fair price to pay for not having to run the mission four times to get four chances. It's a direct reduction in grind.

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I don't know about ya'll, but I'm not playing until:

1. Kavat sequence drop rate is made fair.

2. Void trace limit gets increased.

3. Archwing get pitch, yaw, and rotation controls, OR we get the option of reverting to the old system.

4. Keep the abominations. I totally want one, but only once the sequence drop rate gets fixed, seriously, I'm not gonna spend every moment I got to play, on derelict missions, that's BS.

If these conditions are met, I'm willing to give the rest a shot, until then, not worth it.

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I’ve been away from the game for about six months and came back for the update. Overall I'm not really pleased with the changes and I've apparently decided to write a book about it.

TL;DR version – Map looks nice; fissure missions don’t actually add variety and they aren’t set up for solo play; the void isn’t really useful anymore when it used to be great; players actually get less loot while spending more keys/relics.

 

I really like the look of the map update. I've seen people say it's difficult to form groups now due to chat limitations, but as I generally only play with friends or solo it hasn't affected me. I can get behind the idea of the junctions even if I do think it's a little silly to have to complete some missions multiple times before a junction unlocks. Also seems a little weird that you need to defeat a tenno to complete the junction. Wouldn't it be controlled by whichever faction is dominant in the area?

Pretty disappointed that the Void is so much less important now. Why couldn't the original towers and the new fissures both run off of relics and keep their respective drop systems? Or they could apply the relic drop system to the tower runs as well if they must. Would that not actually provide more variety - letting people choose how to grind for their prime parts?

Not really a fan of the fact that everyone has to use a relic for the fissures. Getting to choose what you keep is a nice idea, but all it really means is that I'll be going through more relics/keys and getting fewer items. If you soloed the towers before you had to use a key every time, so there wouldn't be a change for you, but in a group of two or more friends we took turns using keys. With four people, I got four rewards for every one key spent. No more. Now there's also the potential that I'll have to choose between multiple uncommon or rare items. This new system has the potential to be more efficient time-wise, but the tradeoffs aren’t worth it in my opinion.

I'm extremely disappointed in the new fissure mission functionality though I think the idea could be interesting; maybe as a new regular mission type?

Even if I kill most enemies in 1-2 shots as they exit the fissure I often don't get enough reagents to close the fissure within the time limit when soloing. Multiple times I've had to wait a few seconds for the fissure to spawn enemies even though there were no close enemies shown on the map. It doesn't seem like much, but it adds up. Once I had to run onto an adjacent tile because a spawned enemy ran off while I was killing something else and the fissure refused to spawn any further enemies until I found and killed that specific one. Maybe higher level fissures or more squad members cause higher spawn rates? I’m sure this will be worked out eventually. I just hope they don’t disregard soloing as a viable way to play these missions. Playing solo shouldn’t be punished!

The reagent drops appear to be RNG based. This isn't a great idea. Survival missions already depend on an RNG drop to keep the mission going. What you're essentially doing is making all prime-part rewarding missions have a second, shorter, not nearly as fun survival mission with the cryotic mission element of grab and carry added in. Only this second mission will cause you to fail the main mission if the RNG isn't kind and there are no ways to mitigate that. At least in a true survival mission you get player activated air tanks that can help see you through dry spells.

I don’t feel this is good gameplay. I shouldn't fail the mission because the RNG isn't giving me enough drops or the fissure isn't spawning enemies in time. If you want to keep the reagent as RNG then the drop rate should be increased, or maybe the void fissure itself should have some kind of health bar and once you kill a certain number of enemies it closes? Or maybe different fissure types have different closing mechanics?

As far as variety...yes, you can try to get all your prime parts on whatever mission type you like now, but only if that type is up for the level you need. Yay! Yet more RNG but this one relates to mission types! Saying that this system "adds more variety" is misleading to me; at best the variety thing is a wash. The main mission type can change, but the fissure mission doesn't and it always has to be done.

I enjoy the look of the kavat, but I'm not excited about them being in the derelicts since that puts them behind multiple RNG walls. First you have to get a relic, then you have to succeed at fissure and hope that you get traces (may have to complete multiple times depending on RNG luck), then you craft the derelict key, and then you hope you come across kavat for scanning. I honestly don't see how this method is any better than that of the kubrow. At least with the kubrow I'm not restricted to taking Frost or Vauban if I'm soloing.

This game has always been about grind. Grind doesn’t bother me so much. RNG grind on this scale does not incentivize me to play – maybe it does others.

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1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

Well... the thing is, while "unused" relics are indeed consumed, I feel like that's a fair price to pay for not having to run the mission four times to get four chances. It's a direct reduction in grind.

The downside to that is now you have less junk to give to Baro. Unless you get a group of friends together and only used 1 relic each time, you're relic-to-junk ratio will always be 1:1, whereas before it could potentially be 1:4. I know they tweaked Baro's trade-in prices, but it seems like I have far less for more work now.

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I've been watching this thread since Void 2.0 was released and we're about a whole week in with 380+ responses as I type this. About 70% (that's ~266 give or take) of these responses cite serious issues with how Void 2.0 has been playing out, whether it be solo "void" has gotten screwed into the deep end, simply how quickly closing fissures becomes dull, or how the Void as a location has become nothing more than an Argon farm. Quite a few have offered helpful suggestions while others leave it to you, DE. I'm sure there's even division about all this on the inside, but please let us know what your intentions are, going forward from this, should you all workout something. Ask us even, make a poll or three among any internally divisive topics.

I've given more time with this system, and there's a lot to like but the things mentioned above are still a concern.

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5 minutes ago, IcicleFerret said:

The downside to that is now you have less junk to give to Baro. Unless you get a group of friends together and only used 1 relic each time, you're relic-to-junk ratio will always be 1:1, whereas before it could potentially be 1:4. I know they tweaked Baro's trade-in prices, but it seems like I have far less for more work now.

Baro was only introduced as a solution to excess prime junk to begin with. It's just a matter of figuring out what the new average amount of excess prime junk is, and updating the prices accordingly.

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1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

Baro was only introduced as a solution to excess prime junk to begin with. It's just a matter of figuring out what the new average amount of excess prime junk is, and updating the prices accordingly.

The key will be in finding a good balance for those prices. Players will have less junk because (hopefully) they will be better targeting their efforts and getting what they want in lieu of junk, and also they will have the aforementioned lower key/relic-to-junk ratio. Hopefully someone who's better than me at math is balancing the new prices.

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Ok so I was going to come on and post for the first time because I really don't like the new void system. Then I read some comments that said what I was thinking and accidentally hit send while screwing around so I'll edit and share my thoughts. (keep in mind this is from solo experience)

1 The void is pointless now. I had nearly all nodes on all planets unlocked and wasn't even going to finish because there is no point. The only reason I went to the void over and over is for the prime parts. Now the only time prime parts are in the void is if there is a fissure there which doesn't make much sense to me. I don't understand why this had to change.

2 The void fissures are too far off the ground. I don't like jumping to get the reactant into the fissures.

3 I went on to try my luck on a t4/Axi Exterminate and my fully modded forma'd tonkor was needing two shots to kill things. I've only seen that in things like LoR and Sorties which I could still get one shots off.

4 The enemies either don't spawn enough or don't drop enough reactant to finish the job. You have to kill way too many enemies to get the stuff you need to close the fissure and more often than not the fissure will spawn in an awkward place so enemies have a hard time spawning. This makes even the easiest level 10-20 exterminate missions difficult to pass.

5 I saw someone mention the limit on void traces and that got me thinking. Even the syndicate missions have a limit that is 7k more than the most costly item in their lists. Therefore so should void traces. (maybe not 7k but at least 15ish)

6 I don't like having single reward missions for void parts. There are sabotage missions but the caches (if any) don't give extra parts and same with spy defense and survival. (not even sure if def and sur are things. havnt seen them yet) Give us back our endless ducats T.T

Remember this is from solo play because my pc won't let me connect to other tenno for some reason. Even so I do like my solo missions and actually prefer solo. Please fix these and remember the little guys. (you know lower level tenno and solo players good and bad) Ok rant over.

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My native language is not English, so maybe I don't understand something, but... What do all that "A1", "F2", "K1" after the relic type name mean? It's okay that you added eras to replace old T1-T4 names, but what are those pairs of letters and numbers for? It's really hard to remember and use their names given the fact that some of them repeat and some not. It's clear that you cannot name them "survival" or "defence" anymore, but in my opinion at least making the numbers meaning the level of refinement would make their names more usable.

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3 hours ago, Zornixx said:

4 The enemies either don't spawn enough or don't drop enough reactant to finish the job. You have to kill way too many enemies to get the stuff you need to close the fissure and more often than not the fissure will spawn in an awkward place so enemies have a hard time spawning. This makes even the easiest level 10-20 exterminate missions difficult to pass.


Use necros or ivara to increase drop and ember or saryn or etc to kill quick enough.

I have been playing both solo and in team. Wherever the fissure spawned, in a "good" or "bad" place, I always had MUCH more than enough of reactant. So much that it was hard to see something through their beams. What you have is not a new void's problem.

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The drop rates on Radiant Relics is completely stupid. I've played 4 radiant Axi K1 so far all I got were common drops. ALL 4 WERE COMMON. I ran K1 default once and received an uncommon reward right away. This new system is a joke. You farm your &#! off to refine a relic and all you receive is just plain garbage. At least the old system requires less work for the same amount of randomness. Complete waste of time.

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27 minutes ago, Rhekinos said:

The drop rates on Radiant Relics is completely stupid. I've played 4 radiant Axi K1 so far all I got were common drops. ALL 4 WERE COMMON. I ran K1 default once and received an uncommon reward right away. This new system is a joke. You farm your &#! off to refine a relic and all you receive is just plain garbage. At least the old system requires less work for the same amount of randomness. Complete waste of time.

This is still much faster than if you had to wait for it as for one of six Defence 4 Rotation C rewards.

Radiant relic still gives only 10% drop chance for top reward. The idea was to play in team of four, so you farm relics and tracers together and upgrade relics together, which shortens whole farm time in four times.
Cooperate if you want to survive.

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There is a problem with Relic acqusition. Not with rate but with variety of locations. Only a couple of missions spawn relics.

Can we have more locations and mission types to spawn relics?

What about Void?

What about Hive/Sabotage caches?

What about endless mission on starchart?

 

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Can you consider making them drop more often? Not only on Roataion C, but all of them having a chance? C is granted, B is moderate, A is small?

Also: When I chose a Relic, but dont find any players and I press the "PLAY NOW", I have to select a Relic again.

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Loving the new Void Fissure game play.....although Mag Prime BP farming has been awful. Going around in circles farming M1 relics, farming Void traces, having 4 radiant relics in a squad time after time and still not getting the bp.

Don't know if anyone else has posted anything similar but I think it would be a good idea to be able to do more with the relic refinement.

If you got all the rewards of a certain relic basically all you need them for is maybe farm for ducats.

Alternative would be that you have the option to use a number of relics and transmute them into another relic, similar to MOD transmutation but preferably less random.

Suggestion number 2: In the relic selection screen it would be very helpful if you could see which rewards are already in your inventory. Especially if you are farming Warframe or weapon parts it is helpful to see if you already have certain parts so you can choose the relic which is most benificial for you.

Lastly, the number of traces dropped is not very high. Which in itself is not a problem but when you only need a couple more traces it feels like such a waste when you loose something like 15 traces to the cap. I read that you can only refine a relic once. Maybe it should be possible to refine relics in stages or alternatively have the cap a little over 100.

 

 

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I am getting more than a little annoyed at having the fissure time out. I activate it, kill everything that spawns from it and only get 80-90% closed because not enough of my kills dropped reactant. I only solo and don't tell me that I should be in a team, because with Void 1.0 I didn't need to be. Maybe add a second to the timer for every spawn that's killed?

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Right now i am having problems joining random groups and starting a game. What happens is the following:

-I select a Relict and start searching for a group. Then two things happen:

  1. I find a group and get loaded right into the game. This is perfect, but doesnt happen most of the time.
  2. I find a group in the main menu. My Relict i selected is'nt selected and no mission has been selected. From what i expierence, only the host then can select a Void Fissure mission. When i try to select a Relict when i have chosen a Void Fissure misson, the menu opens for a second and closes. So i have to wait until the host selected a Void Fissure mission with Relict. Then i can select my Relect for the Void Fissure only by accepting the mission. Selecting the same Mission as the host does'nt work.

The second case is very annoying. This makes finding a group annoying, although i like this feature to group with random people for Void Fissure.

Anytime i am with a group and i have selected my Relict for the Void Fissure, i have to reselect my Relict, if i want to start the timer. This is also annoying and should'nt be necessary.

It seems like, if multiple people want to the select a Relict, the menu closes for everyone.

 

Hope that helps to make group finding easier and more enjoyable.

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I take back every single positive word I have ever said about the Fissure system. Ever. Word. 

Its garbage. Utter garbage, and it should be scrapped and the old void restored. Immediately. Like...now. Before the weekend starts. So people who want prime stuff can actually ENJOY getting it.

This is TWICE now I have looked forward to coming home from work and playing Warframe.

And its twice - two days IN A ROW - with fewer than six total Fissures...and half of them on Rescue/Spy nodes.

Seriously, just stop it already. Its like you're trolling your player base. I venture a guess that very few people bring a group to Spy missions in the first place. And those who do, certainly dont bring Tanky combat frames. AND YOU KNOW THIS. 

So why allow Fissures on Spy missions? What developer goes out of their way to make their game LESS fun for people to play?

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This update really hurt in quite a few ways. It has stopped my friends and I from playing anything besides the build your daily forma and log out game. Even then there's a companion app for that so I'm not sure why I even bother running warframe on my PC. To summarize this update in a few short words - massive oversight and misunderstanding of the "problems" at hand. 

 

I remember a focus and reasoning for these changes was something along the line of key shares and people not holding to their end of the bargain. Why this was ever a focus is beyond me. Playing with pub players at any time is hopeless at worst, gimmicky at best. You cannot ever rely on anybody but yourself and close friends. This system does not fix pub players ruining things, as it's still possible to alt f4 out and ruin the connection. Wether or not "key sharing bums" were a focus to this change or not is irrelevant and not a fault of the key system, but a fault of malicious players. The only solution to this problem is for players to get friends and reliable people. 

 

The next big problem is the sheer monotony of this change. I'm almost certain one of the points of the new system was to "decrease void fatigue". And what better way to do that than mush the primary objective of individual mission types all into one easy and annoying objective? Surely everybody wanted to run the same mission goal over and over with no variety whatsoever. Different mission types exist for a reason and that is the escape from fatigue. 

 

Compounding with the above is it being apparently too difficult to get the item a player sought after. This is a result of duplicate drops across keys, as well as skewed chances. Now I understand that things, especially new things, need to be rare. But for them to be rare as a result of duplicate low rarity items clogging drop tables is a very easy fix. Further, the relics display deceptive information.

 

To an uninformed player, they would think the bar sizes on chance for an item are all on the same scale. Now what de has done is not lie to players, as the chance of getting the rare thing did increase 5x as shown by the 5x larger chance bar. However, it is deceptive in that it's not on the same scale as the common and uncommon bars. The bars should be colored like the mod system, which may help to convey rarity, though it's preferable that the bars just all be drawn on the same scale so people don't waste their time with the next point. 

 

Upgrading relics is pointless. An 8% increase sounds good on paper until you consider how much work you have to do to level a relic. In the time you can even upgrade a relic one time you will have gotten through to another C rotation. This issue is further compounded by relic upgrades being a single time thing as well as the limit on lumemes being only 100. If relics were a one time upgrade per type, then you could PICK what rarity you wanted to go with then this might be ok, but as is a single time use of that rarity could take 10 runs just to achieve and chances are you're not going to get the thing you want anyway. 

 

Finally and probably most importantly - this system is more anti-player than the system that proceeded it. I couldn't even help my friends farm primes now if I wanted to. One of the greatest things about the old system wasn't just multiple rewards, but also the ability to help players who weren't stocked tooth and nail with keys. The progression of the content in the game to be awarded from void missions through playing slowed over time, as the things you had gotten had been achieved (as in the things you don't have become comparatively scarce as you have the other things). Bringing a new person into an hour void survival likely yielded 10 or more things they did not have prior. Now I would have to trade them an item (wasting their daily trades if they even had them) just so they could get ONE thing at a time. 

 

Overall, this new void was either masterfully crafted to disincetivize players from playing more than 20 minutes at a time or was just a massive oversight of the real problem which still exists. Equalize drop chances (or make the skew of %'s less grossly distant) and remove duplicate items across drop tables. Further, add more mission types to the void will allow even less dilution than before, add more variety to prevent "void fatigue" , and be player friendly for new players as well as veteran players that have a desire to help others. 

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I was staying away from this, giving it time to settle out, but I finally have feedback.

Like many others have pointed out, doing Public (not with close trusted friends) Relic missions trying to all use the same Relic is a nightmare. Almost worse than trying to do the old Key-shares. There is no UI to support it (showing the relic other people have equipped, and the refinement level ), and no systems in place to insure people load in correctly, have had people "claim" that system didn't let them equip the Relic at all.

I would like to see something like the Raid UI showing full Gear, Relic, and Refinement level. And have it run off the Invite Only mode. A person hosting such a lobby sets their game to Invite Only to access the Raid style UI and relic enforcement.

The reason why I say use Invite Only, is that allows Public Online games to keep running without bias or too much nastiness. 

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  • doing these solo is a *@##$, not enough corrupted spawn which means not enough reactant drops
  • reactant is a *@##$ to pick up
  • why the armor buff? why the nullifer spam? that's not hard or difficult or challenging, its just annoying
  • I do like how I can play in pubs bypassing the mess called recruit chat

 

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17 hours ago, Vol4ica_ said:

What you have is not a new void's problem.

It absolutely is. You can't seriously expect players to only choose betweens 2 warframe to even be able to play void fissure mission on a convenient level.
The drop chance is way to RNG - or so is the mob spawn rate. One has to be increased, either more mobs or higher drop chance.

I'm most cerntainly not going to only play out of 2 warframe to be able to play those missions.

The difficulty of closing the fissure should be that you are able to kill the enemies... not that you have to be plain lucky to get them to drop reactants...

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