Kavats Feedback [Megathread]

[polarity]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

While people are still discussing which is superior, Sentinels or Kubrows, with valid points on both sides, Kavats snuck into the debate and clearly snatched the victory.

New content would be better if it wasn't making old content obsolete, because you're not really adding anything to the game when it's effectively removing the option to use something else.  The same result could have been achieved by reworking what already existed.  You can look at FireFall for the best example of how that approach failed.

Meanwhile you have EVE online, where new ship types are regularly added to the game.  Over time it became clear that the newer ones all had better stats than the older ones, and the 'equipment as content' had developed tiers and vertical progression, that could be skipped over by going straight to the more advanced ships (which were often literally in higher named tiers), and ignoring the older content.

Obsoleted content is wasted developer time, because the game is not being improved in scope, and the number of available options, it's just changing what's there that's worth doing.

In EVE this was realised, and CCP decided to devote a good amount of developer time to what was referred to as 'tiericide': A complete and comprehensive balance pass on all of the ships in the game, the purpose being to reverse obsolescence, by adapting the roles of the ships, and by making the higher tiers more specialised, or customisable, instead of just more powerful.

Players loved it, because it gave them endless new combinations to work with, in developing new tactics.  It made what they already had into more usable content, instead of just switching from old to new.

Now every time a new ship is added, it can expect to be rebalanced soon after its release, rather than after months of players complaining it is over or under powered, and will continue to be looked at, as the game's meta changes with other changes and additions.

 

I think Warframe has got to a similar point where its 'equipment as content' has started to become more and more stratified into different tiers of usefulness, through varying power, and a similar tiericide is needed.

I'm not talking about complete balance, but rather an acknowledgement that the outliers need to be dealt with promptly, regulary, and initially comprehensively, rather than in a piecemeal fashion that leaves too much imbalance for too long.

[Buttaface]

8 hours ago, Maugre said:

If you mean missions, you're dead wrong. Played way more than that with way less output.

No, I meant -exactly- the crystal clear words that I posted, as in "play sessions," an average 2-3 hour Warframe playtime (some play more, some play less). If I had meant "missions" I would have used that word. Anyway, you folks are getting what you wanted, so be happy. I believe they should not have capitulated, but that's just one person's opinion.

I bought my kavat stuff because I had saved up plat from 1. converting ducats into plat sellable items, 2. selling prime parts, syndicate parts and mods that players want for plat in trade. No idea how much play was required to get the plat for kavats, but I thought the price was completely reasonable and should not have been changed due to a few people's complaints. Every day, playing the game in pretty much ANY fashion, I accumulate at least 10P (2 dna) worth of syndicate points very quickly. During that time I accumulate another 20P (4 dna) worth of ducats/prime parts very quickly. Scanning the wild kavats and other mobs nets Simaris points, and some of the Simaris mods can sell for 30-40P (2 dna per session equivalent in light of Simaris cap). Selling the stuff via a market site can be done while playing, or one can sell in trade chat or do both. Once one has the kavat, it will be possible to sell the print set to people wanting that breed for at least 20P (more if you get lucky and get a good looking desired one), something I have done many times with kubrow prints (4 dna). So there's 12 DNA that people in the thread complaining about the droprate aren't factoring in to add to some scanning and get the number of dna necessary for the upgrade and to breed. MR too low? Play the game and raise it. As a matter of fact, these pets are not for beginning players. People begged for MR to be made meaningful forever. Don't want to spend your gametime selling things or trading with other players? an unreasonable attitude in these types of games OR use real cash and support the game.

tldr? IMO they bowed into pressure prematurely. Kavats and stuff were priced completely reasonably and not really very "grindy" at all.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Buttaface

[radastir]

2 hours ago, Pendragon1951 said:

When I first heard about the idea of Kavats(Space Warcats) I was pretty excited(this was before I had seen any concept art of what Kavtas looked like) below is what I envisioned they would look like

Then I saw what they really looked like, as far as design goes they are quite unique and maybe as a collector they would be great to have but me personally I was disappointed, they remind me of a underfed cheetah or some house pet for a Egyptian Queen, not a killer War animal that's going to protect me. They also still suffer from the same braindead attitudes as Kubrows when it comes to attacking. As an example I was on Earth when we came upon a pair of feral kubrows, my kavat stood right next to them and did absolutely nothing when in actuality it should have started attacking them. They may buff you passively but it really is not worth the time of trying to get the genecodes or money to make it worth using, speaking from a practical point of view and not a animal lover. I have already gone back to my Sentinel after maxing my Kavat. There really needs to be a command structure to companions if they are to be the weapons they are suppose to be in my opinion.  

Look again:

[Madame_Werewolf]

Kavats are good. But drop chance is bad, too bad for something secondary like a pet. Raise the drop chance and they will be perfect.

[_Miko_]

I did 103 scans of  Kavats at Derelict Capture and I got only 9 genetic codes. 

I've been trying today to do scans with my friends at the same location. 44 scans and 2 genetic codes. 

I'm like... WHAT?!
 :)

Edited July 11, 2016 by _Miko_

[Buttaface]

7 hours ago, BeastKing9 said:

you're fanboying and missing the point. cosmetics are something to pay for. it only costs 10p for a kubrow egg, a kavat costs 5 times as much, and its obvious how easy it is to obtain a kubrow egg, it seems like with every update, they aim to make the grind more and more tedious, also you should read the thread before you post, because its obvious thats not the case, people are scanning in the 80s of kavats with only 1 or 2 codes. you're trying make it out like its not a big deal when it is because theyre going to continuinly make things more and more tedious to farm with every update. guys like you who just accept everything good or bad will make that happen faster.

1. I am the very opposite of a "fanboy," but thanks for opening with an obvious ad hominem fallacy that weakens whatever follows.

2. You are missing the point, there is no "baseline balance price" other than in your mind and opinion. Whatever kubrows or sentinels or anything else costs is -irrelevant-. If kavats are more expensive, so be it, spare the bolding of "5 times." That is the publisher's right and choice for -new- relatively "high level" content in a FTP game. If the scan rate is low, and you don't like that, do -something else-, convert that -something else- into plat and then buy the kavat stuff with the plat. Either spend the 4-5 play sessions playing the game to get the new content (including all plat tradable activities) or spend the $5-10 to get the new content you want. Simple, reasonable. They are not obligated to spoon feed you this or that new content for free instantly upon release. Seems they are going to do that, though, or at least head more in that direction, so be happy.

3. Rest of your reply is just compound fallacy about my "reading the thread" and "guys like you." I have probably posted more negative opinion about this game than positive over my year of playing it.

[-aN-Sora]

i love kavats <3 but The only problems I have are, they broken stealth attacking if they see enemies, when you run in the mission they are far behind and kill them, by last would be good know what kind of buff has given you kavat smeeta 

[RMSGM]

Ok.. so we need 10 dna scans to even build the kavat segment? are you serious? i have done quite alot of scans and not even one yet.

Increase dna CHANCE or this is just really not worth it imho.

[Maugre]

1 minute ago, RMSGM said:

Ok.. so we need 10 dna scans to even build the kavat segment? are you serious? i have done quite alot of scans and not even one yet.

Increase dna CHANCE or this is just really not worth it imho.

There's a hotfix coming for that today, dont worry.

[RMSGM]

1 minute ago, Maugre said:

There's a hotfix coming for that today, dont worry.

Wow really? if thats true then cool.

[Maugre]

Just now, RMSGM said:

Wow really? if thats true then cool.

Rebecca posted it earlier on this very page.

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

 

[Arkvold]

10 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Unlike many here, I see no problem at all with the dna droprates from scans. You need max 20 codes to have an incubator upgrade and kavat. Even at bad drop rates, that's no more than 4-5 play sessions, hardly "grindy" by prevailing standards in this game or many other hybrids.

You state that you find kavat genetic codes "not grindy" and that "four to five play sessions is enough" - when I can get a Kubrow in one, and a Sentinel of any kind in about as much time as it takes me to grind 100k for the blueprint.  Comparing Kavats to other things that fill the exact same slot on a Warframe's equipment menu is a completely fair comparison.

 

34 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

I bought my kavat stuff because I had saved up plat from 1. converting ducats into plat sellable items, 2. selling prime parts, syndicate parts and mods that players want for plat in trade. No idea how much play was required to get the plat for kavats, but I thought the price was completely reasonable and should not have been changed due to a few people's complaints.

Then you outright state that you did not get your kavat through grinding.  You have no personal experience of what the grind to get a kavat without spending plat is like.  You say that only 'a few people' complained, when I pointed out that in the first two pages alone (a page being 25 posts), one page's worth of posts consisted of complaints about the genetic code drop rate.  You want me to break it down by demographics?  Because we have everyone from Master-rank Founders to Forum newbies among those first two pages of complaints.

Furthermore, nobody was complaining about the price to get a kavat.  We were complaining about the grind to get a kavat without paying.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if it's not worth plaything through, then it's not worth paying for.  A cash shop 'solution' to a obnoxious grind does not make for good content.  This is why I'm so glad to see this:

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

Thank you, Rebecca, for taking this into account and helping to ensure that DE doesn't become Mr. Potatomoto.

[Cyberghost135]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

Now i can finally have my own beautiful Kitty :3

[RMSGM]

DE.. please make it so that we can extract dna after we kill these things too, like if we try and scan them alive it would give a greater chance than dead for example.

[-Ironheade-]

15 minutes ago, RMSGM said:

DE.. please make it so that we can extract dna after we kill these things too, like if we try and scan them alive it would give a greater chance than dead for example.

Not going to happen, as corpses are not scanable. And to have them just drop DNA samples on death is a terrible idea imo. It would take away the whole feeling that you´re hunting for something specific and that you actually need to be careful, if you could just rush through the level with Ember and WoF and have samples drop... 

Edited July 11, 2016 by -Ironheade-

[Maugre]

10 minutes ago, -Ironheade- said:

Not going to happen, as corpses are not scanable. And to have them just drop DNA samples on death is a terrible idea imo. It would take away the whole feeling that you´re hunting for something specific and that you actually need to be careful, if you could just rush through the level with Ember and WoF and have samples drop... 

Yep. It also makes no sense to grab one Kavat corpse to harvest for all the DNA you could possibly need.

[-KyloRen-]

lucky run

[Wolfwaffe]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

From 0.1% to 0.11%?

[TennoPain]

This is getting old and boring DE guys you know how hard it is to grind for genetic for kavats

we are making too many posts about grind and there u go again WHY ?

I kinda feel like decisions u make now are forced by somebody else it was not like this before 

Why do we need to go over the same story each update it burns will to even play anymore ?

[Buttaface]

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

You state that you find kavat genetic codes "not grindy" and that "four to five play sessions is enough" - when I can get a Kubrow in one, and a Sentinel of any kind in about as much time as it takes me to grind 100k for the blueprint.  Comparing Kavats to other things that fill the exact same slot on a Warframe's equipment menu is a completely fair comparison. Then you outright state that you did not get your kavat through grinding.  You have no personal experience of what the grind to get a kavat without spending plat is like.  You say that only 'a few people' complained, when I pointed out that in the first two pages alone (a page being 25 posts), one page's worth of posts consisted of complaints about the genetic code drop rate.  You want me to break it down by demographics?  Because we have everyone from Master-rank Founders to Forum newbies among those first two pages of complaints.

1. As posted prior, the cost of kubrows and sentinels is utterly irrelevant. Sentinels are beginner content and should be easy to get. Kubrows are old content and the eggs were indeed hard to get when the content was fresh... and people complained and complained about that as well. Now, kubrow content is old and eggs are much easier to get. No, as a matter of fact, due to the preceding reasons and others I'm not going to bother posting as you will ignore them, comparing "things that go in the same slot" is absolutely NOT necessarily a "fair comparison."

2. I am not surprised that you ignore my main points to make more utterly irrelevant claims about "who is complaining" and "how I got my kavat."  With respect to "complaint volume," actually it does have some small relevance... against your case. Two pages of complaints without lots and lots of double-digit "likes" in a game Warframe's size is objectively trivial. With respect to the equivalent of "your opinion doesn't count because you bought the dna with plat and didn't grind it," I -did- play the game for 1500 hours. I -did- obtain MR20, and I did farm a lot of plat by doing the things I posted prior that you ignore. I -have- been playing computer games for over 35 years, and -have- been playing online games for 16, so -no- just because I didn't do one easy to figure out gear farm in a game doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.

3. To repeat, there are -many- ways to get stuff in Warframe, and plat is easy to get. Normally, I am not the type to post things like "you just want to be given everything instantly" because it's fallacious, but in this context, I will say that I believe people complaining about something that costs 50 plat, when I -know- that if I went in their ships I would find noggles, color palettes, syandanas, etc., that they paid more plat for than that, are being somewhat disingenuous and hyperbolic on the kavat dna thing.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Buttaface

[Aetherial_Enigma]

check staff replies, was a comment about buffing them in the next hotfix

[(NSW)GameV8]

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are increasing this in the next Hotfix for sure.

 

[Arkvold]

47 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

1. As posted prior, the cost of kubrows and sentinels is utterly irrelevant. Sentinels are beginner content and should be easy to get. Kubrows are old content and the eggs were indeed hard to get when the content was fresh... and people complained and complained about that as well. Now, kubrow content is old and eggs are much easier to get. No, as a matter of fact, due to the preceding reasons and others I'm not going to bother posting as you will ignore them, comparing "things that go in the same slot" is absolutely NOT necessarily a "fair comparison."

They occupy the same slot.  They serve the same functions, even though they do so differently.  They even share some mods, not to mention modding principles, such as the use of precept mods.  They even share the same interface in-missions.  Kavats even share a similar system of acquisition to Kubrows - go to a specific segment of game content, and perform a specific task within that content to obtain the necessary resources.  For Kubrows, it's "destroy Kubrow dens on Earth" and for Kavats, it's "scan feral Kavats in the Orokin Derelict."  The only difference, mechanically, is the amount of each one's specific resource, and the difficulty of acquiring that amount.  How many more similarities must exist before you can say, "yes, that's a fair comparison" ?

 

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2. I am not surprised that you ignore my main points to make more utterly irrelevant claims about "who is complaining" and "how I got my kavat."  With respect to "complaint volume, actually it does have some relevance... against your case. Two pages of complaints without lots and lots of double-digit "likes" in a game Warframe's size is objectively trivial. With respect to the equivalent of "your opinion doesn't count because you bought the dna with plat and didn't grind it," I -did- play the game for 1500 hours. I -did- obtain MR20, and I did farm a lot of plat by doing the things I posted prior that you ignore. I -have- been playing computer games for over 35 years, and -have- been playing online games for 16, so -no- just because I didn't do one easy to figure out gear farm in a game doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.

Your playtime, mastery rank, and plat farming strategies are irrelevant.  We're discussing the grind to obtain genetic codes by scanning kavats and, among all of the content you have done, you have not done this specific content.  Those of us who have complained, have done this specific content.  We are complaining that this specific content is an obnoxious grind.  Regardless of whether or not there's an alternative, this specific content needs to be addressed (and thankfully, Rebecca has confirmed that it is getting addressed, for which I'm personally grateful.)

 

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3. To repeat, there are -many- ways to get stuff in Warframe, and plat is easy to get. Normally, I am not the type to post things like "you just want to be given everything instantly" because it's fallacious, but in this context, I will say that I believe people complaining about something that costs 50 plat, when I -know- that if I went in their ships I would find noggles, color palettes, syandanas, etc., that they paid more plat for than that, are being somewhat disingenuous and hyperbolic on the kavat dna thing.

I don't care how much plat other people have paid for other things, cosmetic or otherwise.  I don't want to be given everything.  I want to be allowed to grind things out, and I'm glad you realize that saying "you just want to be given things instantly" is a fallacy.  I am a person who values their money highly and their time even more so.  I don't often have a lot of spare time to play Warframe for hours upon hours, or to spend time marketing when I could be playing.  Even when I do have that kind of free time, there's often other things I want to do with it that are more important to me.

I am far more likely to spend money on a game that respects my time invested and gives me fun, interesting, exciting and rewarding challenges to occupy the time I choose to invest in it.  I am not going to spend money on a game that gives me an interminable slog, and then waves a cash shop 'solution' my face like bait before a fish.

Once I have done the content at least once, then maybe I'll take the cash-shop shortcut for subsequent kavats, assuming I feel it's worth the price asked.  But if the content itself is not worth my time and effort, neither is the shortcut worth my money.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Arkvold

[Guaruda]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

 Nothing to say...

love the way DE actually listen to players, different from some other games

[OsorioCesar]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hey all - please note that today's Hotfix will increase the rate at which Genetic Signatures are acquired on scan.

Ty DE :)