Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[Comradicus_Prime]

Going into a Corpus mission. Gotta love what I saw. 1 room. 10 nully's with their giant bubbles covering the entire room. 12 sapping ospreys S#&$ting out their blinding lights of aoe damage all over the place. 16 mine ospreys covering the ground with mines meaning every square inch meant a possible blast proc. Sprinkle in a handful of techs to make baby shield ospreys thus blinding even more with their connections. Fun. Couldn't really see too well, guns were useless thanks to blinding lights and giant bubbles + shield regen. There was no spot that was well and truly safe from damage as there was a constant barrage of sapping osprey pulse mines...

 

Only reason I survived was down to I had a tankier frame in Oberon and could constantly heal all that damage, and I had a strong melee weapon equipped. If I were to be running a casting frame, I'd have been toast. And, at the end of the day, if the nully was supposed to cut down on "Ability spam" it didn't. All it did was put me into near suicide range of techs and sapping ospreys to kill them. All ten of them, and then constantly keep pressing 3 and 4 to heal and remove all those god damned ospreys. I encountered more nullies on that mission than elite crewman.

 

There is a certain art to killing nullies and living to tell the tale, but in those situations, if I was anything other than tanky, RIP me.

[GhostLacuna]

On 7/10/2016 at 11:27 PM, mobilehacker said:

To all players, that think that Nullifiers are OP - i will prove you, that that is not true. Why Nullifier should affect anyone, but Frost? Now Frost players will contribute to the game at the same level as his teammates.

Now, my brothers, i will teach you, how to kill a Nullifier.

First of all, you must find one. Now you have several different options.

2. Glaive. The right built Glaive, throwing at the feet of Nullifier kills them instantly.

Stop giving out blatantly outdated information. 

Melee thrown weapons do jack S#&$ against nullifiers now. If you actually tested weapons after the patch you would know this already. 

Melee thrown weapon no matter which one you use cant kill the nullifer at all no matter how you throw it. 

All that glavie etc will do is hit the bubble and make it shrink.  I have tested this for hours bot in simulacrum and in corpus and void missions. 

Seriously do none of you even test what weapons actually do any longer?

Edited July 13, 2016 by GhostLacuna

[ChaellExE]

On 7/8/2016 at 5:34 PM, Tymerc said:

Speak for yourself. I enjoy Nullifiers because they counter mindless ability spam while also dealing out good damage. 

are you sure ;)

get in their bubble jump slam. They are on the ground, bubble is down, rhino stomp. 

 

And also with four abilities and weapons that without major resetting doing no so much damage what do you want.

[9IR_nullfield]

Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm now has extremely troubling interactions with Nullifier bubbles. Nullifier bubbles will now individually cancel every tentacle they graze, and most importantly, the tentacles will still preferentially target enemies - even if they're currently inside of a bubble. This leads to awkward circumstances where you cast Tentacle Swarm and immediately all but 3 tentacles that accidentally spawned on the ceiling are eaten by the Nullifier bubble, doing absolutely nothing and wasting the power.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that for some reason Tempest Barrage retains its old characteristics and is still cancelled by Nullifier bubbles when you walk into them, despite it being an AoE that spawns a stream of projectiles at a set location. Which means that not only does Hydroid have to avoid aiming anywhere in the general vicinity of Nullifiers with his powers, he also can't run into Nullifier bubbles without getting shut down either. It's made him feel even more shoddy and inconsistent than ever.

As a Hydroid main, yeah, not fond of these changes. At all.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 7/8/2016 at 11:41 AM, AM-Bunny said:

Spot on. I think Nullifiers are great enemy design. They present a challenge, but that's a good thing.

I disagree entirely with this whole "challenge" aspect. A real challenge is fighting enemies that are more powerful than you, not an enemy that makes you less powerful. That's a handicap. If anything, make nullifiers a mini-boss enemy, not a regular enemy that not only gets ancient healer immortality, but also can become an eximus. How is it that is nullifies warframe powers, but not enemy powers? Everyone complains about how we "cheese missions" using our powers, yet we have this enemy that cheeses us. Anyone complaining about ability spam obviously isn't playing missions with enemies that are at their level. A maxed out warframe is obviously going to dominate a level 30 or 40 mission, when endgame content doesn't start until level 70-80. START!!!. Endgame survivals have 3 rotations that we must play to get the full rewards of the mission, with the first one doubling up. That's 20 minutes, which indicates that survivals should be played for a minimum of 20 minutes. A mission with level 70 enemies after 20 minutes i've seen is around 100. That's the range of enemies to fit our maxed out warframes. After those levels, we are challenging ourselves by fighting enemies past our level. I dare you to do a T2 survival by yourself, wait around an hour or so until enemies reach level 80, spam any power, whether it be ash, rhino, saryn, mag, or excalibur, and tell me if ability spam is a problem.

[AM-Bunny]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I disagree entirely with this whole "challenge" aspect. A real challenge is fighting enemies that are more powerful than you, not an enemy that makes you less powerful. That's a handicap. 

I'd much rather fight an enemy that can terminate my Hysteria than one that has something more powerful than Hysteria.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

A maxed out warframe is obviously going to dominate a level 30 or 40 mission, when endgame content doesn't start until level 70-80. START!!!. Endgame survivals have 3 rotations that we must play to get the full rewards of the mission, with the first one doubling up. That's 20 minutes, which indicates that survivals should be played for a minimum of 20 minutes. A mission with level 70 enemies after 20 minutes i've seen is around 100. That's the range of enemies to fit our maxed out warframes. 

Er... starts at level 70? I think the only missions that start at level 70 are Raids and Sorties - actually, even the first stage of Sortie doesn't start at level 70. Outside of endless missions, I think Sorties barely scratch level 100. So Sorties - excluding endless - aren't even endgame? I think your perspective is a little exaggerated.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Er... starts at level 70?

I think the only missions that start at level 70 are Raids and Sorties - actually, even the first stage of Sortie doesn't start at level 70. Outside of endless missions, I think Sorties barely scratch level 100. So Sorties - excluding endless - aren't even endgame? I think your perspective is a little exaggerated.

Raids and Sorties were said by devs to contain endgame level enemies. Sorties start at 50-60 and end at 80-100. The ony thing different is that they also have an extra challenge, like primary only etc. Funny enough, raids start at 70 and end at 150. 20 minutes from level 70 ends at 120. I was in a t2 survival earlier today. I know. These coincidences are not random. They all mean one thing. level 70-100 is endgame, maybe you could include level 60, but that's it.

6 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

I'd much rather fight an enemy that can terminate my Hysteria than one that has something more powerful than Hysteria.

I'm not saying have something more powerful than your hysteria, I'm saying that hysteria won't be one-shotting enemies at that level.

[AM-Bunny]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I'm not saying have something more powerful than your hysteria, I'm saying that hysteria won't be one-shotting enemies at that level.

Sounds like you want more meatwall enemies that can one-shot you.

Sorry, but I'm also of the opinion that players have access to a huge array of powers that can be unimaginably effective. To be able to fight back, enemies need a way to get past those powers, I think that the method that Nullifiers do it is very fair. 

They can be seen from a mile away, so they're a very high priority target. They're slow moving, so it's pretty much impossible for them to negate your powers unexpectedly. In the event you do find yourself inside the bubble, you know that they're in the geometric centre, so it's incredibly easy to locate them, even if there are many other enemies inside the bubble. Considering all these things, it's very easy to be alerted to them and form a counter-strategy, which is why I don't consider them cheesy.

There's a couple things I would tweak about them (related to destroying their bubble) but overall I think they serve a valuable purpose. Also, most of the redeeming qualities I mentioned are negated when they're regurgitated into your lap which is the new thing with Fissures, unfortunately.

[BulletsforTeeth]

48 minutes ago, AM-Bunny said:

Sounds like you want more meatwall enemies that can one-shot you.

Sorry, but I'm also of the opinion that players have access to a huge array of powers that can be unimaginably effective. To be able to fight back, enemies need a way to get past those powers, I think that the method that Nullifiers do it is very fair. 

They can be seen from a mile away, so they're a very high priority target. They're slow moving, so it's pretty much impossible for them to negate your powers unexpectedly. In the event you do find yourself inside the bubble, you know that they're in the geometric centre, so it's incredibly easy to locate them, even if there are many other enemies inside the bubble. Considering all these things, it's very easy to be alerted to them and form a counter-strategy, which is why I don't consider them cheesy.

There's a couple things I would tweak about them (related to destroying their bubble) but overall I think they serve a valuable purpose. Also, most of the redeeming qualities I mentioned are negated when they're regurgitated into your lap which is the new thing with Fissures, unfortunately.

One of the first tweaks they could use is a skill based mechanic to elliminate them from a distance. No, no ,no I am not saying let tonkor cheese annihilate them nor any other launcher, save for maybe torrid. Something of a buff for low RoF weapons that are accurate. We don't need one more reason on top of this being a hord mode game to use high RoF weapons- give us actual incentive to take aim for a change, Maybe not punch through, but something.

Nullifiers are good, but they need some tweaks to the bubble mechanics no matter how much the nerfhards cry about it.

Edit: I am more or less in agreeance with you. They are good, but their current mechanics stink slightly of cheese.

Edited July 13, 2016 by BulletsforTeeth

[AM-Bunny]

Just now, BulletsforTeeth said:

One of the first tweaks they could use is a skill based mechanic to elliminate them from a distance. No, no ,no I am not saying let tonkor cheese annihilate them nor any other launcher, save for maybe torrid. Something of a buff for low RoF weapons that are accurate. We don't need one more reason on top of this being a hord mode game to use high RoF weapons- give us actual incentive to take aim for a change, Maybe not punch through, but something.

Nullifiers are good, but they need some tweaks to the bubble mechanics no matter how much the nerfhards cry about it.

Yup. I have two changes I would implement. Firstly, I think semiauto weapons should have an easier time with the bubbles, although this has been discussed since Nullifiers were introduced. I have an idea of how I would do this though, which is my second change.

Basically, the bubble decays too slowly. If you're fighting a really low level Nullifier, and you shoot 10 rounds of your fully modded Soma Prime into it -- even though more that's enough to pop the bubble, you have to wait like, a solid two seconds for the bubble to shrink and then pop. Waaaaay too long.

I think there should be a threshold if you continue to do damage to the bubble as it shrinks - perhaps after inflicting 200% of the bubble's health - then it would pop instantly. This would make them much less annoying to deal with, and also give semiauto weapons a fighting chance.

[-Apple-Pie-]

13 hours ago, GhostLacuna said:

Stop giving out blatantly outdated information. 

Melee thrown weapons do jack S#&$ against nullifiers now. If you actually tested weapons after the patch you would know this already. 

Melee thrown weapon no matter which one you use cant kill the nullifer at all no matter how you throw it. 

All that glavie etc will do is hit the bubble and make it shrink.  I have tested this for hours bot in simulacrum and in corpus and void missions. 

Seriously do none of you even test what weapons actually do any longer?

Look at the date when i posted that. BTW, it Was working flawlessly when i posted that. Killed every Nullifier up to level 60 in 1 hit, if that Nullifier was not Eximus, and if there was no Ancient near it. And for the Glaive, you must throw it at the legs, not just at bubble. Just tested, Glaive dont work right now.

Edited July 14, 2016 by mobilehacker

[LabMan95]

Next update: Nullifier bubbles will never burst and warframes, their weapons, or their abilities cannot get inside

[Akimbo]

Nullifiers are such a S#&$ty idea it's unreal. If they can make nullifiers and they go through walls - WHY DO THE CORPUS JUST NOT EMBED THEM INSIDE THEIR WALLS?! Then we could never disable them and all Tenno would be screwed. Now they spawn in larger numbers and seem tougher than before. It's almost as stupid as having them spawn from fissures directly on top of players.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

Oh sweet Jesus no... guess I'll be taking another break when this update comes to console. I was so ready to start spending money on this game again too. (Looking at you Nekros Prime)

[Man_In_Suitcase]

12 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

Yup. I have two changes I would implement. Firstly, I think semiauto weapons should have an easier time with the bubbles, although this has been discussed since Nullifiers were introduced. I have an idea of how I would do this though, which is my second change.

Basically, the bubble decays too slowly. If you're fighting a really low level Nullifier, and you shoot 10 rounds of your fully modded Soma Prime into it -- even though more that's enough to pop the bubble, you have to wait like, a solid two seconds for the bubble to shrink and then pop. Waaaaay too long.

I think there should be a threshold if you continue to do damage to the bubble as it shrinks - perhaps after inflicting 200% of the bubble's health - then it would pop instantly. This would make them much less annoying to deal with, and also give semiauto weapons a fighting chance.

IIRC the Synoid Sim could once pop Nullifier's bubbles in a near instance and any level, which what you're proposing sounds like that effect should apply to all weapons once the bubble takes X amount of damage which I completely agree with. However the SS got the nerf hammer when people clicked on that it could not only deal good CC, but trivalize Nullifiers at the same. So whether or not DE would even consider reimplementing this mechanic on a larger scale seems quite unlikely to happen now.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On July 8, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Drunkenbagel said:

What's wrong with coptering through the nullifier? Does no one bring a melee weapon? And if you don't want to melee then can't you just slide in, shoot, then bullet jump out all in one fluid motion?

Really seems to be a case of git gud to me.

But I do think their design is boring though. It's just a sniper with a backpack and a bubble around it. Could have at least made it a hulking Robo-Rhino or something.

Try doing that in a Sniper-only Survival Corpus Sortie, level 60-100.

Not only am I dead serious, I probably died 6 times explaining this scenario on a couple of forums trying to find an understanding toward the minority that appreciates Nullifiers (4 revives + 2 arcane revives wasted).

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 7/13/2016 at 6:48 PM, AM-Bunny said:

Sounds like you want more meatwall enemies that can one-shot you.

Sorry, but I'm also of the opinion that players have access to a huge array of powers that can be unimaginably effective. To be able to fight back, enemies need a way to get past those powers, I think that the method that Nullifiers do it is very fair. 

They can be seen from a mile away, so they're a very high priority target. They're slow moving, so it's pretty much impossible for them to negate your powers unexpectedly. In the event you do find yourself inside the bubble, you know that they're in the geometric centre, so it's incredibly easy to locate them, even if there are many other enemies inside the bubble. Considering all these things, it's very easy to be alerted to them and form a counter-strategy, which is why I don't consider them cheesy.

There's a couple things I would tweak about them (related to destroying their bubble) but overall I think they serve a valuable purpose. Also, most of the redeeming qualities I mentioned are negated when they're regurgitated into your lap which is the new thing with Fissures, unfortunately.

I don't want them removed, because a power negating mechanic is interesting and spices things up in monotonous meat-cutting missions, but the way it is now is total bs. Nightmare Raids have an enemy called a disruptor drone. They nullify powers, but don't shrink, don't take damage, and the can be affected by outside powers. I believe nullifiers should function like disruptor drones. The field doesn't take damage, but it also doesn't shrink. Unlike disruptor drones, I think that nullifiers should negate powers from outside the aura, but instead of the nullifier negating all powers inside the aura, they simply remove power casting, and all powers already cast would remain, but the ability to cast powers would be removed within the aura. Also, hitting the backpack should remove the field aura for a few seconds. If you feel like this makes some powers op like hysteria being able to take out the nullifier, then make it so that the nullifier himself can go through the power, similar to how the hyeka master can see through invisibility while the others can't. Also, Nullifiers should be given a different weapon. It makes no sense that the most viable tactic to fighting nullifiers is maintaining distance, but it's also suicide because they have snipers. They should wield a shotgun to prevent those who melee rush to think thrice about entering the aura. Nullifiers with Detrons seem logical.

[CapedBaldy]

On 7/14/2016 at 7:42 AM, AM-Bunny said:

I think there should be a threshold if you continue to do damage to the bubble as it shrinks - perhaps after inflicting 200% of the bubble's health - then it would pop instantly. This would make them much less annoying to deal with, and also give semiauto weapons a fighting chance.

Nullifier bubbles don't work on health, they work on size and hits deplete the size with very limited damage variance. They have no health value. All your suggestions leads to is, 18 shots or 12 shots, depending on which Nulliffier version, and the bubble disappears, which guess what, still favours fast dakka dakka guns.

If you really wanted to put it in terms of health, the bubbles can be said to have 9x400/6x400 health but that's not really how they work. However, you can also go to the extreme low end and say that the bubble has 36x1/24x1 health if you're using a 1 damage speedy peashooter. Similarly, we can go to the extreme high end and take something like a Dread and say that the bubbles have 9x2000/6x2000 health. You'd find that these all do break the bubble but add up to wildly different values, because there is NO health value to it.

If you're proposing they get some actual concrete health value then yeah, maybe that will work but Nullifiers just need a complete and total overhaul if you ask me. Completely broken design and restrictive on so many levels.

[Multicom-EN-]

Aaand bump.

[Vaskadar]

On 7/13/2016 at 6:26 PM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I disagree entirely with this whole "challenge" aspect. A real challenge is fighting enemies that are more powerful than you, not an enemy that makes you less powerful. That's a handicap. If anything, make nullifiers a mini-boss enemy, not a regular enemy that not only gets ancient healer immortality, but also can become an eximus. How is it that is nullifies warframe powers, but not enemy powers? Everyone complains about how we "cheese missions" using our powers, yet we have this enemy that cheeses us. Anyone complaining about ability spam obviously isn't playing missions with enemies that are at their level. A maxed out warframe is obviously going to dominate a level 30 or 40 mission, when endgame content doesn't start until level 70-80. START!!!. Endgame survivals have 3 rotations that we must play to get the full rewards of the mission, with the first one doubling up. That's 20 minutes, which indicates that survivals should be played for a minimum of 20 minutes. A mission with level 70 enemies after 20 minutes i've seen is around 100. That's the range of enemies to fit our maxed out warframes. After those levels, we are challenging ourselves by fighting enemies past our level. I dare you to do a T2 survival by yourself, wait around an hour or so until enemies reach level 80, spam any power, whether it be ash, rhino, saryn, mag, or excalibur, and tell me if ability spam is a problem.

While endless missions are a terrible metric for balance, (I shouldn't have to explain why, and if you find that I do, I'm going to ignore comments regarding such from here on out), Nullifiers are the byproduct of cheese mechanics in this game. So, either we're forced to cheese the enemy or they cheese us, which DOES NOT make for compelling or interesting gameplay.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Vaskadar

[Clowee]

It's slightly annoying to have to recast your buffs afterwards, but why's it so hard just to slide into their bubble with something like an Atterax and 1 shot them, as well as everything else in the bubble with them?   I do this all the time on my equinox and have never had any issues.

The only thing I really don't care for is how they make slower guns semi-useless.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Clowee

[grimdraken]

Because, as has been said, ad nauseum, try that with a bunch of Sapping Ospreys huddled around the Nullifier, for example, and tell me that tactic is viable.  It's just one of the multitude of ways to deal with a Nullifier, but it's never foolproof, and almost every technique required to deal with them is either tedious, restrictive, or a deathwish.

 

And sure, low level stuff, no dramas.  NOTHING is an issue.  It's the pointy end of the game where all the issues with these stupid enemies become enhanced.

Edited July 19, 2016 by grimdraken

[Multicom-EN-]

Bump.

[Troll_Logic]

I don't hate them.  While annoying and deadly, they exist for a very good reason.

[Jenjix]

They were implemented poorly, that's one of the main reasons people don't like them. They fill too many roles for a common enemy and lack effective counters against them, it becomes more apparent the higher the level. Tie that with synergies with other enemies and the problem becomes clear.