Nekros desecrate toggle - a nerf or a buff?

[Multicom-EN-]

I like that it's being turned into a toggle. However....ONE corpse every couple of seconds? What??? Now that's a nerf. Make it one corpse PER SECOND  and we have a useful rework.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Multicom-EN-

[Trayzerlol]

honestly, nekros deserves a complete rework.  NO NO DE PLEASE NOT THE MAG TREATMENT!!! man that was close /s. so yeah i realize asking for reworks didn't really pay off for the most recent frames that got them except excalibur but maybe one day they'll get it right again. 

let's face it: the current ability set of nekros is underwhelming and he doesn't get used for anything besides desecrate and honestly, i haven't seen a single nekros in weeks pugging. before abilities were scaling with level and had to be equiped via mod cards, most nekros builds had exactly one ability on them: desecrate. since the others haven't changed much since then, it's still whatever if you have 1 2 and 4 available or not. if you go nekros, your intention is to double the loot. 

this doesn't promote active gameplay. we and also de know that and this is why the ability is getting reworked. the idea to have a toggle seems nice, could be horribly underwhelming though as many have pointed out, if it indeed only rerolls one corpse every few seconds. anyway this might be a good change after all if they get it right so let's rather look at the other abilities of his skillset for a second:

1...Gentle Touch:  Nekros gently touches an enemy with telekinetic kindness, dealing 100 / 200 / 350 / 500  Impact damage to a single target within 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 meters.

ya, single target, low damage, cast time. it's not a good ability honestly. it should be at least a targeted AOE ability to offer more utility and justify the cast. point and click targeting and have the radius scale with range mods. like a small explosion with a fun little ragdoll effect. also in case of augment, if multiple downed allies are within the range, they should all be affected by the revive.

2...Worst CC EUW: Nekros releases a gigantic gas cloud that smells funny and causes up to 7 / 12 / 15 / 20 enemies within 5 / 10 / 12 / 15 meters to enter a state of panic for 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds.

ya. this one is really underwhelming. there are a lot more convenient cc options in the game so it's pointless to even consider using this ability in party play. also the augment is ridiculously boring and useless. the entire ability should be replaced by something better. and since nekros likes to play with dead things, why not replace it with skeleton arms coming from the ground that drag affected enemies down and cc them similar to the current terrify but with a better cc mechanic and some damage to make it useful. just think about it: if i can hit 4 once on rhino and flip everyone and their mother into the air for more than 10 seconds with a 68m radius, how does terrify compare to that? yeah. just one example to show off the huge flaws of nekros' abilities. 

3... desecrate toggle confirmed... good, bad, sunika kubrow? stay tuned to find out. but honestly, this ability could also be used as a passive instead. then it would make sense for it to grant additional loot for one corpse every few seconds. the entire additional loot mechanic is questionable in general. punishing players for not bringing nekros / ivara is kinda disappointing but i guess it's well-liked for party play or something so w/e... at least make his other 3 abilities fun then.

4...Army Of Useless Shadow Clowns:  Nekros summons 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 shadow copies of HIS most recently slain enemies. The copies retain the level and stats of their original selves but will gain 25% / 50% / 75% / 150% damage and 15% / 35% / 65% / 100% health. 

this ability...long story short: it's useless because of:

- the cast time which takes longer to complete than excavation sorties with eximus stronkhold stipulation

- getting kills as nekros to even get shadow clowns

- clutter on the screen for the entire team to "enjoy"

- shadow clowns are as useful as sunika dogs and as strong as mr. satan from DBZ.

- they move at continental drift speed.

there are some more downsides to this but i think we can agree that the ability does not fit to be nekros' ultimate and also doesn't fit into the fast paced combat that warframe promotes. 

how about this instead: Reaper's Scythe. Nekros transforms his melee weapon into a deadly scythe while gaining imcreased movement speed and spinning around in the general direction of enemies, ripping them to shreds and healing allies for a % of the damage dealt. also inflicts bleeding dmg. with some noice animations this could actualy be kinda fun. imagine nekros having the upper-mentioned pin-down cc, snaring a group of enemies and blasting through them with an awesome looking scythe. ability synergy hype...yay.

so yeah please make nekros great again for the first time ever before priming him. that is all.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Trayzerlol

[xxfiurionxx]

Hope DE guives desecrate nekros its due respect :/

Part of me is allready scared when dealing with "improvements" and changes but if it turns out DE made some sort of "vote" to know what people "wanted" with nekros only to guive desecrate an ilusion of upgrade with a nerf... ill not cry... but ill sure as hell feel even more scared :X

Loving and enjoying my hydroid atm since it adds "more" to the team with extra dmg, CC and some aditional loot but cant argue that if all teams were "kill" efficent, nekros would be my "master farmer" frame. "Spaming" 3 with natural talent may be a chore to some... but for me,  just like ash bladestorm "cutcenes", it was just a diferent way to play the game.

Other then that, who knows with that "upgrade" ill not find more time to be more helpfull to the team without feelling im wasting "possible" loot in those seconds sometimes like a simple weapon reload.

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

12 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Desecrate frankly should be removed and replaced by something that plays the game, not the meta of loot rolls.

I honestly couldn't agree more. But I can also understand that some people really like the Desecrate Build, so instead of being like some of the Jerks, who say that I should quit playing Nekros because of a certain build I like to play (Shadows of the Dead), I won't say anything further.

[ZaneCyber]

Despoil is a staple, always has been. Anybody not using that + Natural Talent + Max range + Max Efficiency on a Nekros build and saying they can desecrate were playing Nekros Wrong.

Now, the new Desecrate is a nerf to the Ability, but it is a buff in how it won't break players fingers and "3" key or associated bind in long survivals.

Just please don't make the number of corpses affected per second power related, or it will be unbuildable.

[(PSN)haffmo]

If it works like embers WOF and you cant gain energy it is a nerf.

[(PSN)haffmo]

3 hours ago, ZaneCyber said:

Despoil is a staple, always has been. Anybody not using that + Natural Talent + Max range + Max Efficiency on a Nekros build and saying they can desecrate were playing Nekros Wrong.

Now, the new Desecrate is a nerf to the Ability, but it is a buff in how it won't break players fingers and "3" key or associated bind in long survivals.

Just please don't make the number of corpses affected per second power related, or it will be unbuildable.

Despoil is stupid considering life is precious. With  energy pads primed flow or a trinity energy should be good. Desecrate is fast anyways and natural talent is overkill.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)RAG is NAROK said:

I honestly couldn't agree more. But I can also understand that some people really like the Desecrate Build, so instead of being like some of the Jerks, who say that I should quit playing Nekros because of a certain build I like to play (Shadows of the Dead), I won't say anything further.

I feel Nekros is a support character and needed for air supply and resources and not to mention energy and health orbs. Shield of shadow build ruins that. It is a more offensive strategy. I run a 5 forma build efficiency range strength build as a terrify desecrate build. A real support type. Made a few team 2hr+ t4 survival runs.

[Xzorn]

I wanted to better explain.

The biggest problem with Despoil becoming a staple mod is Nekros doesn't really have room.  Supposedly this change is to allow Nekros to use his other abilities and less 3 spam but here's the problem with that.....

 

His Shadows aren't great without the augment. Enemy AI is awful and their a fairly big annoyance to your team while a stray shot will still kill you.

His Terrify is OK at best without the augment. With the augment it's pretty cool. -50% armor and 75% slow, gets enemies out of cover, it's decent.

Soul Punch, not very good. More funny that useful. The augment is OK.. I mean, if you like to plan for failure.

New Desecrate, if it follows the rules of channel, It will require Despoil to manage energy for other abilities.

 

So here we have a frame with 4 abilities ALL of which require an augment to be decent or good to use.

 

Then you add on the possibility of his one Superior ability getting nerfed? That would be simply awful, he doesn't deserve that at all.

 

[-Sandman]

I rather break my finger. Please don't nerf desecrate DE. For those who don't know how to build nekros properly / don't like; why not stay away from it instead of asking for nerfs on a frame you dont even want to use.  

[Burnthesteak87]

2 hours ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

If it works like embers WOF and you cant gain energy it is a nerf.

There's no problem since the build relies on grabbing Orbs.

[cx-dave]

20 hours ago, Varacal said:

i think they said that they are still working on it, hence some corpse not being desecrated, if it gets fixed though, as a whole, i consider the change as a buff, not to the skill, but to nekros' gameplay himself, since now you can actually play the game and not be a desecrate puppet

I can't disagree with that more. Currently, you have to decide on the fly when to kill and when to Desecrate in order to efficiently get loot and restore your health. Your rewards are dependent on how well you accomplish these combined tasks.

By making Desecrate a toggle you'll have far more time to acquire targets and looting will be less optimal for an experienced player. You'll also lose your Desecrate and essential timing for looting whenever you'd enter a Nullifier bubble. It takes away user interaction and involvement. The equivalent would be making Excalibur Blind or Trinity EV a toggle. Not rewarding to play at all.

Example of game play that you'll lose out on with toggle Desecrate:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzlLV0sYkIy2YnQwLWd0MVhUVTQ

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

The changes sound like a nerf to me.

Nekros will now have to remain in range until Desecrate activates and enemies killed by any number of dissolving abilities will rarely be desecrated in time. 

...We won't know for certain until it releases in a few days though.

[EmptyDevil]

22 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Desecrate frankly should be removed and replaced by something that plays the game, not the meta of loot rolls.

Nekros is a severely underwhelming frame to begin. Having one ability that does absolutely nothing to help with in game situations does not improve his lot.

Maybe where his fourth brings back a mini army, his third could resurrect a copy of any one target you choose. Fully Eximus version, even. 

Or maybe Desecrate could steal life force and energy from the dead, transferring it to frames as health, energy or over shields as needed. Anything but some meta die roll.

Oh well. I will skip this prime access for certain. Nekros is not a favorite of mine.

Another useful change that should happen to Desecrate should be for it to add to Shadows Of The Dead. It would allow Nekros to use his ultimate sooner and lessen the sting of kill steals done by teammates. It should also take priority on the tougher enemies for adding them to his shadow army. 

[-Sandman]

5 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

The changes sound like a nerf to me.

Nekros will now have to remain in range until Desecrate activates and enemies killed by any number of dissolving abilities will rarely be desecrated in time. 

...We won't know for certain until it releases in a few days though.

Yeah this has the opposite effect because now you have to constantly remain in desecrate. I thought they wanted to remove all the turret type and spam 1 ability aspects from the game? Nekros is pretty versatile right now, if you ask me, alot of players here just don't know how to build and play him. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by -Sandman

[FLSH_BNG]

On 7/23/2016 at 10:18 AM, Xzorn said:

Since it's a Channel ability you will not regen energy which means Despoil is a mandatory augment now...

Not true, Ivara's Artemis bow is toggleable, only costs energy to active and fire, and will allows for energy regen with the Energy Siphon aura and collecting orb drops.

[Zeyez]

11 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Not true, Ivara's Artemis bow is toggleable, only costs energy to active and fire, and will allows for energy regen with the Energy Siphon aura and collecting orb drops.

plus Pacify & Provoke from Equinox the same, they only cost energy if someone use an ability inside the aura/any enemy enter inside the damage reduction aura (plus slow, if it has the augment Peaceful Provocation), but the energy regeneration from Energy Siphon and Zenurik's Energy Overflow will works while theses abilities are active

and based on that, if Desecrate receive an condition that only cost energy/health if it find any corpse around Nekros, so, he can regenerate energy anyway, even better, he can benefit from Despoil and Equilibrium, since he will always have health below the maximum amount and the ability generate health globes at steadily amount, he can gain energy at fast amount, like @ligonare said before, so, he won't need (Primed) Flow, maximum efficiency build or even Natural Talent as mandatory for his builds

 

the only thing we will need to watch is the amount of energy/health used by the toggleable desecrate, since we didn't saw the values on devstream

[Xzorn]

20 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Not true, Ivara's Artemis bow is toggleable, only costs energy to active and fire, and will allows for energy regen with the Energy Siphon aura and collecting orb drops.

 

I said channel ability,

I didn't say toggle for a reason. Toggle can mean damn near anything.

On the Dev build she was loosing HP per tick without Desecrate activating. It's a channel or "Drain" ability which up to this point has not allowed you to regenerate via ticks.

I wouldn't call Artemis bow a channel as it only drains when you use it. Desecrate seems to not only drain while you have it on but when it activates as well. Hence Despoil mandatory mod.

 

[Arkvold]

On 7/23/2016 at 9:32 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

Desecrate frankly should be removed and replaced by something that plays the game, not the meta of loot rolls.

As I've explained before when this argument has come up, Desecrate can be used intelligently for more than just "MOAR LOOT."

1. Desecrate produces health orbs.  There are only four sources of health orbs in non-Archwing gameplay - wildlife mobs, containers, Oberon's Reckoning, and Nekros's Desecrate.  Health orbs, in turn, can be used to give injured warframes energy as well as health if they equip Equilibrium (or are Equinox, who has an inherent Equilibrium effect).  Health orbs also can proc the Health Conversion mod, which gives you bonus armor every time you pick up a health orb.  Properly utilized, Nekros can not only cheese his own energy costs via a combination of Despoil and Equilibrium, but also buff his own armor and those of allies who are properly modded to take advantage of his abilities.  In addition, if you fall over on top of a health orb when you're bleeding out, you immediately revive - Nekros has a tendency to blanket active battlefields in health orbs, making this far more likely to happen.
2. Desecrate produces ammo.  While a lot of weapons don't have ammo issues, those that do can often get by without Ammo Stock/Ammo Mutation if a Nekros is available, meaning they can mod for more damage or other functions.  Nekros himself, again, can take advantage of this.  Get yourself a carrier with maxed vacuum and desecrate your ammo issues away.
3. Desecrate produces energy orbs.  It should be pretty obvious as to why this is great, but also remember that Energy Conversion exists.  Allies leveraging this mod can count on frequent power strength boosts if a Nekros is present, and there's very few Warframes in the game that don't benefit from Power Strength to some degree.
4. Desecrate produces Air Supply packs on Survival.  Again, pretty obvious why this is useful.  A Nekros that is well protected and fed a constant supply of fresh corpses can keep the air supply on a heated Survival mission at 100% with little difficulty.

I consider the bonus loot from Desecrate to be a perk, not the primary reason I use it.  

[yakri]

The only thing that really ought to get a change on nekros besides desecrate on nekros is his ult. It's just a little too weak and DE put in artificial limitations on using it intelligently. I mean really, no Eximus units? Why the F*** not? The damage scaling deserves to be a fair amount higher as well, since mobs do so little damage. Closer to 200% or 300% base.


Other than that there isn't much wrong with him. His 1is crappy but ok, like all warframe 1's, his 2 is great, 3 is fine as a toggle.

[DrBorris]

Honestly, a slight nerf to Desecrate would not be that bad. Sure, go back a few months when Nekros was the ONLY frame that could re-roll loot tables and a nerf to Desecrate would have been terrible, but as of now we have 4 total frames that can re-roll. If anything, this could be viewed as a balance change to level the playing field between those frames (and remember, you can always bring multiple).

IMO, every frame should have a re-roll ability/augment. This would massivly diversify "farming" teams if you could bring whatever frame you want (given that you have the necessary augment, so building for farming is still a thing).

Edited July 24, 2016 by DrBorris

[(PSN)haffmo]

13 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

There's no problem since the build relies on grabbing Orbs.

No I usually drop energy pads or have a trinity. So much for that if toggle is like WOF.

[(PSN)haffmo]

34 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

 

IMO, every frame should have a re-roll ability/augment. This would massivly diversify "farming" teams if you could bring whatever frame you want (given that you have the necessary augment, so building for farming is still a thing).

That is like saying all frames should heal or tank. Really it just seems people that don't know how to build a frame want to nerf it due to jealousy. All the it is op just so it will be nerfed to nothing. If it is too easy for you run with no mods or little mods.

[Burnthesteak87]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

No I usually drop energy pads or have a trinity. So much for that if toggle is like WOF.

Again, in "World On Flames" you can still pick up orbs.
If you play Nekros by Despoil + Equilibrium you can still manage to upkeep Desacrate alone, even if it would stop Energy income from outside sources.

So the problem doesn't exhist.

[-Sandman]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

That is like saying all frames should heal or tank. Really it just seems people that don't know how to build a frame want to nerf it due to jealousy. All the it is op just so it will be nerfed to nothing. If it is too easy for you run with no mods or little mods.

This. 

They should also stop using low level missions as their benchmark for calling something OP. The extra loot gotten from desecrate isn't that great anyway, and running against high level enemies with despoil and arcanes, you can quickly die even with all the health orbs around. People really need to start clicking that button that says "INVITE ONLY" if there are things that bother them so much. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by -Sandman

[DrBorris]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

That is like saying all frames should heal or tank. Really it just seems people that don't know how to build a frame want to nerf it due to jealousy. All the it is op just so it will be nerfed to nothing. If it is too easy for you run with no mods or little mods.

No... no it is not. Heal/Tank affect gameplay, loot drops... don't. I don't get the jealousy thing, could you expand on that one a bit more? Right now you "need" a very select team comp in order to do something in a mission that has no effect on the actual gameplay of that mission. Thus, having to switch frames is limiting your gameplay styles when you want to farm. Warframe is all about the grind/farm, which is not a bad thing as long as the grind/farm is fun. If you limit the grind/farm to only a few frames you are limiting the gameplay itself.

I am still confused on the jealousy thing...