Nekros desecrate toggle - a nerf or a buff?

[Sannidor]

Of course I'm aware the change has not been implemented yet and I find this moment perfect for a pure hypothetic discussion.

From what we all saw in devstream video, desecrate is a toggle.

QOL change is obvious, no more playing a stationary DJ.

But wait, at current state there's a chance for a body to not be desecrated so me must repeat a process but at several attempts we have very high chance to get lot from every corpse.

And there are enemies who resist desecration...

With coming change it seems there's only one chance for every enemy to re-roll drop chance.

Will we be able to re-cast desecrate in several places? Will intersecting 'fields' of this power increase chance of looting?

What about dismembering enemies dropping extra loot synergy?

It's super metal do dance between flying body parts with slashing weapon and feed on loot from all the bits!

 

Last thing Warframe needs is a nerf to farming resources.

There are surely players who embrace every "balancing" but I fear for another wave of justified rage.

[Varacal]

i think they said that they are still working on it, hence some corpse not being desecrated, if it gets fixed though, as a whole, i consider the change as a buff, not to the skill, but to nekros' gameplay himself, since now you can actually play the game and not be a desecrate puppet

[(PSN)CrispyNipill]

well there is a few seconds delay before and after a desecration happens (with the rework), in that few seconds bodies will disappear and only one body/body part can be desecrated at a time.

rip

[(PSN)vamp6x6x6x]

I watched the devstream and it looked like it just kept defiling that corpse until it gave up the goods...

As for if this is a nerf or a buff I am not sure. I didn't really get to see how much health it takes away, but if it can only do them one at a time and not all at once it is a nerf indeed.

[JohnViande]

Honestly, I'd rather have the toggle with a bit less loot than having to press 3 every 2 seconds.

I like getting more loot, but I like playing the game even more. That change really looks fine to me for now.

[FLSH_BNG]

It seemed to me in the Devstream that the now ability only targeted one corpse at a time, and if that's the case, then the chance of desecrate working should be removed and it should be a guaranteed re-roll of the loot table.

[-Ryuurei-]

11 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

It seemed to me in the Devstream that the now ability only targeted one corpse at a time, and if that's the case, then the chance of desecrate working should be removed and it should be a guaranteed re-roll of the loot table.

Agreed, either it affects all corpses at once with a chance or it does them 1 by 1 but guaranteed.

[.-KG-..-Ragulab-.]

If toggling only allows one corpse to be desecrated at a time then it's probably a nerf since if there are too many corpses around they will disappear before being desecrated

[Cydro_]

Here's a revolutionary suggestion; it's a change

[FLSH_BNG]

I would suggest that DE consider make it behave passively in a similar manner to Ivara's Artemis Bow ability, where it has an initial cost and only drains energy after that when it desecrates a corpse. It should be a 100% chance to desecrate a corpse after it has been in range for an amount of time dependent on the ability's rank: at rank 0 it desecrates one corpse in range after a one second delay, at rank 1 it desecrates two after two seconds, etc. until you have a four second delay at rank 3 to desecrate up to 4 corpses simultaneously.

This makes it more efficient as it ranks up as it would automatically wait until the corpse capacity was higher to maximize its loot yield.

This could scarcely be considered a nerf to the ability, and would most certainly be a buff to the frame in terms of actual gameplay.

Edited July 23, 2016 by FLSH_BNG

[Burnthesteak87]

Problems for me are:

1. its duration, I wouldn't like it to end alone on its own -right in the middle of the fight- while I need Orbs from the enemies I'm killing.
2. the frequency of its effect.
3. It is EXTREMELY important that they take care into not bugging the interaction between Despoil and Health Conversion:
   As it is now, the vitality sacrifice from Despoil doesn't count as damage, so it doesn't dispel HC stacks.

If everything goes correctly according to my plan, Nekros is going to be a perfect melee fighter, self-sustaining with Desacrate, Red Orbs, Vacuum and LifeStrike.

Kill > Despoil drains life > you get an Orb > 3 Orb gives you 1400 armor (you become tough as a rock) > you get Energy through Equilibrium > you use Energy with Life Strike to gain Health back.

We'll have now plenty of time to focus on the combat instead than lifetapping Despoil every second for Energy.

Also we will have 1 free Mod slot by dropping Natural Talent, which probably is going to get filled with Stretch or a random utility mod or another Augment.
Remember that Health Conversion is 10'000 times better than Shield of Shadows, it doesn't leave you for 2-3 seconds during the battle forcing you to go hiding to cast SOTD again.

What also Nekros would need is this:
 

Quote

The solution:

• Make Desecrate a toggled ability;
• Desacrate won't roll loot tables anymore. This is now a Healing and Energy utility tool.
• Give Desecrate Synergy:
  Every corpse successfully desecrated:  ► Buffs Shadows of the Dead increasing stacking 5% movespeed  and attack speed.          
                                                                ► Prolongs Shadows duration by 0,5 second.
                                                                ► Gives Nekros +X power Strength. Max Cap +60%  (4 more shadows).                          
• More ideas: ► Desacrated corpses are istantly turned into Volatile Runner Shadows exploding for X damages and spreading                                                  Nanite-Swarm Clouds affecting friendly units increasing Armor and reducing enemies'.
                      ► Health orbs gained through Desacrate will grant 100 Vitality (instead than 25).

and this:
 

Quote

..a big problem is the lack of control over Shadows.

No matter what the damage multiplier they get, by their AI the damage is randomic and unfocused, resulting in no results in mid-to-high level missions.
In the end they just result being as moving Decoys that once and then are able to kill a low Hp target.

For Sinergy, it would be great if Shadows would focusfire a declared target, and Soul Punch should mark their target, driving their attention.

Also, PLEASE make Despoil baseline. Inaros has yet skills which costs Vitality, and for how Desacrate works, it's Energy cost is ridicle.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[BlackCoMerc]

Desecrate frankly should be removed and replaced by something that plays the game, not the meta of loot rolls.

Nekros is a severely underwhelming frame to begin. Having one ability that does absolutely nothing to help with in game situations does not improve his lot.

Maybe where his fourth brings back a mini army, his third could resurrect a copy of any one target you choose. Fully Eximus version, even. 

Or maybe Desecrate could steal life force and energy from the dead, transferring it to frames as health, energy or over shields as needed. Anything but some meta die roll.

Oh well. I will skip this prime access for certain. Nekros is not a favorite of mine.

[Xzorn]

Since it's a Channel ability you will not regen energy which means Despoil is a mandatory augment now.

Currently it's a 50/50 depending if you wana use Zenurik, Shadows, ect. But it's not mandatory. Since you won't get Energy regen and Desecrate results in many many more health orbs in addition to his passive you now have a mandatory mod slot taken up by Despoil. Good luck fitting Shadows augment and all the others.

So like Melee, DE makes yet another staple mod.

This is aside from the Desecrate "ticks" possibly missing key targets or pieces of a target. They said they may tweak the timing, so who knows on that.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Xzorn

[Thural]

lol, DE buffing something that reduces grind, the day that happens, I'll eat my hat

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Since it's a Channel ability you will not regen energy which means Despoil is a mandatory augment now.

Currently it's a 50/50 depending if you wana use Zenurik, Shadows, ect. But it's not mandatory. Since you won't get Energy regen and Desecrate results in many many more health orbs in addition to his passive you now have a mandatory mod slot taken up by Despoil. Good luck fitting Shadows augment and all the others.

So like Melee, DE makes yet another staple mod.

This is aside from the Desecrate "ticks" possibly missing key targets or pieces of a target. They said they may tweak the timing, so who knows on that.

You make it sound like enemies never drop energy orbs on desecrate...

[Xzorn]

28 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

You make it sound like enemies never drop energy orbs on desecrate...

 

Enemies drop far less energy orbs than health orbs and if you keep the ability channeling you will not likely have enough energy to also cast Shadows and Terrify as much as you would with Despoil. You will still need Natural Talent because Shadows has a god awful cast speed that will get you killed and if you go Streamline + Fleeting you're still taking up another mod slot.

It's far more efficient to use Despoil given the drop rate of Health orbs and his passive and unlike Fleeting Expertise you won't suffer Duration loss. His Shadows build needs both Str and Dur, His Terrify build needs Str, Dur, Range and his Despoil + Health Conversion build already uses it.

If you just want a loot bot build or to ignore Desecrate and just use his other abilities,  it's fine but that's besides the point of the change.

[ligonare]

1 mod will fix energy deficiency. Provided your desecrate runs on despoil. Equilibrium.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Desecrate frankly should be removed and replaced by something that plays the game, not the meta of loot rolls.

Nekros is a severely underwhelming frame to begin. Having one ability that does absolutely nothing to help with in game situations does not improve his lot.

Maybe where his fourth brings back a mini army, his third could resurrect a copy of any one target you choose. Fully Eximus version, even. 

Or maybe Desecrate could steal life force and energy from the dead, transferring it to frames as health, energy or over shields as needed. Anything but some meta die roll.

Oh well. I will skip this prime access for certain. Nekros is not a favorite of mine.

Does nothing to help in game situations? Then what are all those health orbs for?

[BlackCoMerc]

39 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Does nothing to help in game situations? Then what are all those health orbs for?

But are there not strictly better healing frames? Counting The Mummy I can think of three.

Even Pizzas are a surer thing. 

You aren't wrong, mind. But if the health orbs are the reason to play Nekros, Trinity or Oberon are better options.

[blackheartstar_pc]

56 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Does nothing to help in game situations? Then what are all those health orbs for?

I was just about to say that. Don't forget energy orbs come out as well just not in the same abundance. Life support? Yeah none of that stuff helps. What are we talking about. Not counting more mods to do whatever with. What a usless &#! frame.

Edited July 23, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

I was just about to say that. Don't forget energy orbs come out as well just not in the same abundance. Life support? Yeah none of that stuff helps. What are we talking about. Not counting more mods to do whatever with. What a usless &#! frame.

And there's the problem: no frame should bypass the game and alter it's rules. It makes a frame virtually mandatory in order to maximize certain opportunities...that's bad.

Useful, granted (forgot life support) but bad.

[LordMazulia]

22 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And there's the problem: no frame should bypass the game and alter it's rules. It makes a frame virtually mandatory in order to maximize certain opportunities...that's bad.

Useful, granted (forgot life support) but bad.

How exactly does additional loot drops bypass the game or alter it's rules? While Nekros makes it easier to get things like health, energy, ammo, life support, ect...he's hardly mandatory. And on that note, you can say there are a lot of different warframes/abilities that are used to maximize certain opportunities. Ember's World on Fire ability with the Firequake mod, or Mirage's Hall of Mirrors with the Sinoid Simular, for example.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, ligonare said:

1 mod will fix energy deficiency. Provided your desecrate runs on despoil. Equilibrium.

My point was Despoil is now a staple mod. Much like Serration, Body Count, ect.

Your energy should be fine as long so you're running Despoil, you shouldn't need Equilibrium but you also shouldn't need Despoil to make Nekros work with any build other than a loot bot which is what they're doing this for.

Players get a QoL improvement at the cost of a mod slot no matter how you build it and possibly less effectiveness on key targets.

[blackheartstar_pc]

With Nekros being my favorite frame and my most used frame on both PC and PS4 I can say despoil is not required or needed on every build. This is just assumption much like the people who assume everyone builds their frames/weapons the exact same way that everyone uses only Tonkor because no other weapons could possably be viable, and everyone used Draco. It is all false. The mind set that you see a few people building or doing something you dislike does not mean everyone is doing it and thus is a problem. That kind of thinking is the problem.

Edited July 23, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

With Nekros being my favorite frame and my most used frame on both PC and PS4 I can say despoil is not required or needed on every build. This is just assumption much like the people who assume everyone builds their frames/weapons the exact same way that everyone uses only Tonkor because no other weapons could possably be viable, and everyone used Draco. It is all false. The mind set that you see a few people building or doing something you dislike does not mean everyone is doing it and thus is a problem. That kind of thinking is the problem.

Not talking about current Desecrate. Talking about new Desecrate which is a channel = no Energy regen.

Don't use Tonkor, Never played Draco, Played Nekros since 2013.

You don't have to use Despoil, but you also don't have to you Serration.

Unless they decide to just, not follow the same rules they've applied to every toggle ability so far, Despoil is just going to be better than alternate setups.