The Stalker is Teshin and here's why - A theory with many a possible spoiler. Read at your own risk.

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Operative word was "accidental", don't worry, I know you're not a bad person

regardless, my other points still remain. the conclave is a standalone area that is controlled solely by Teshin.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

12 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

considering that after the fall they were engaged in a long battle against the grineer? doesn't add up.

and don't get me wrong, i'm not being defensive(or at least not trying to come across as such) i'm just trying to encourage research and critical thinking. like for example when you ask me things i'm not sure about i immediately consult the lore. if i can't find anything that logically argues with what's being said, then of course i have to give sway to the statement. but if the counterpoint is negated by ingame lore, then all i'm doing is relaying that the story of the game itself says nope. make sense?

The Qweenz win them over, regardless and an Empire in their image is born.

And now they are arrogantly pushing to make themselves genetically and technologically superior with total disregard for the danger to the entire system (Tyl RAN AWAY when Hunhow woke, renember?)

The lore is too vague to say EXACTLY how it got to this point, but it's minutia for the sake of this counter-theory.

I propose that Teshin's plans and the Tenno training got royally f*cked by the Nyx Operator's premature entrance into the Qweenz' Chambers (which us exactly what the Qweenz wanted) and now Teshin must sacrifice himself to stop them from killing her/getting her DNA/them escaping...etc

...and THAT is why he says "You have ruined us both."

Edited August 3, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ObviousLee]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

The Qweenz win them over, regardless and an Empire in their image is born.

And now they are arrogantly pushing to make themselves genetically and technologically superior with total disregard for the danger to the entire system (Tyl RAN AWAY when Hunhow woke, renember?)

The lore is too vague to say EXACTLY how it got to this point, but it's minutia for the sake of this counter-theory.

I propose that Teshin's plans and the Tenno training got royally f*cked by the Nyx Operator's premature entrance into the Qweenz' Chambers (which us exactly what the Qweenz wanted) and now Teshin must sacrifice himself to stop them from killing her/getting her DNA/them escaping...etc

...and THAT is why he says "You have ruined us both."

i'm fairly certain that "you have ruined us both" is more of a disdain that the operator isn't the single one screwed in this situation. I maintain that if teshin was the stalker, the best revenge would be wiping out both the sentients and tenno to ensure the safe rule of the queens.

[(XBOX)MK Ultra K11]

Tenshin isn't the stalker....If he was why would he be confused during the second dream?

[Voltage]

what is very interesting is whenever stalker kills me when I am soloing, I am Loki prime. I have never been killed by shadow stalker using another frame. everytime he spawns in a public game, I am always another frame and he usually is targeting another player.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, -Voltage- said:

what is very interesting is whenever stalker kills me when I am soloing, I am Loki prime. I have never been killed by shadow stalker using another frame. everytime he spawns in a public game, I am always another frame and he usually is targeting another player.

lol that may very well be just bad luck but hey, who knows

[Voltage]

22 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

lol that may very well be just bad luck but hey, who knows

2spookyTeshinMe

[ObviousLee]

15 minutes ago, -Voltage- said:

2spookyTeshinMe

hell, if you think this one is crazy, wait till DE releases the image i need of a sentient and then you'll be reading my theory linking margulis and natah to be one and the same

 

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

hell, if you think this one is crazy, wait till DE releases the image i need of a sentient and then you'll be reading my theory linking margulis and natah to be one and the same

 

Literally was just talking about that with my friend last night. Are you also thinking that when Natah made the cross over she had to inhabit a person's mind/body so she took Margulis, and thus she became attached to the tenno/kids by mind melding with Margulis? I remember from somewhere that the sentients get changed somehow when they cross over into our solar system so I feel like that's that.

[ObviousLee]

6 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Literally was just talking about that with my friend last night. Are you also thinking that when Natah made the cross over she had to inhabit a person's mind/body so she took Margulis, and thus she became attached to the tenno/kids by mind melding with Margulis? I remember from somewhere that the sentients get changed somehow when they cross over into our solar system so I feel like that's that.

i'm thinking she made her own body to infiltrate the orokin empire. remember how occulysts scan biological data and sentients can mold items(so far confirmed is just a sword) of their bones.

I'm thinking natah did one of two things: 1; hacked into the orokin cloning tanks and made herself a baby that coincided with birthing of an orokin that was planned or 2; she simply made a body out of genetic material observed from the orokin and simply doctored any credentials as it became necessary.

 

the messed up part is i have what i need, but since it's not an official release i can't post it to show the linkage between sentient body design and margulis' influence within the orokin. 

and yea, Natah would have had to interact with the children as Margulis to feel any love for them, as she'd be able to make that intimate connection. As enemies on a battlefield, it makes next to no sense as a warframe completely lacks the ability to display any emotions the operator may be experiencing. 

 

and the sentients were changed by interacting with the void on their return trip from tau. they took the long way there, building solar rails as they went. once they reached tau, after an unknown amount of time they took the solar rails back here and began the attack. Crossing the void by solar rail left them barren. 

Edited August 3, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

i'm thinking she made her own body to infiltrate the orokin empire. remember how occulysts scan biological data and sentients can mold items(so far confirmed is just a sword) of their bones.

I'm thinking natah did one of two things: 1; hacked into the orokin cloning tanks and made herself a baby that coincided with birthing of an orokin that was planned or 2; she simply made a body out of genetic material observed from the orokin and simply doctored any credentials as it became necessary.

But then that gives no explanation as to why she would betray all the other Sentients and instead decide to "have kids". The Detron Crewman synthesis imprint has a good amount of lore on the sentients if you haven't seen it http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Detron_Crewman

[ObviousLee]

Just now, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

But then that gives no explanation as to why she would betray all the other Sentients and instead decide to "have kids". The Detron Crewman synthesis imprint has a good amount of lore on the sentients if you haven't seen it http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Detron_Crewman

it would explain her betrayal if she'd been sent in as a mole to destroy the orokin from the inside. High Archimidian that is the lover of an Executor is no low position, which would put her in a place of great influence. so if the plan was to bone them from the inside, all would have gone according to plan save for the zeriman's surprise reappearance. margulis interacted with those kids, developed a bond. she became a mother to them in that time, only to have it stripped from her by the orokin. Now the plan called for hunhow to be blown to hell for the false victory which lead to the betrayal. Natah was supposed to kill them after they killed the orokin, but she didn't. she adopted us then and there, because she'd already lost her children once. she wasn't about to kill them herself.

[DeFragMe]

4 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

it would explain her betrayal if she'd been sent in as a mole to destroy the orokin from the inside. High Archimidian that is the lover of an Executor is no low position, which would put her in a place of great influence. so if the plan was to bone them from the inside, all would have gone according to plan save for the zeriman's surprise reappearance. margulis interacted with those kids, developed a bond. she became a mother to them in that time, only to have it stripped from her by the orokin. Now the plan called for hunhow to be blown to hell for the false victory which lead to the betrayal. Natah was supposed to kill them after they killed the orokin, but she didn't. she adopted us then and there, because she'd already lost her children once. she wasn't about to kill them herself.

That actually fits with Nathas conversation after Tyl regor fleed the scene.

THey were talking about how natahs job was to destroy the Orokin and the Warframes, where she only did half the part....

 

but anyway, this theory has in my eyes nothing to do with the topic? Or will we now sweep to the left and leve teshin lie on the floor with the dust?

[ObviousLee]

Just now, DeFragMe said:

That actually fits with Nathas conversation after Tyl regor fleed the scene.

THey were talking about how natahs job was to destroy the Orokin and the Warframes, where she only did half the part....

 

but anyway, this theory has in my eyes nothing to do with the topic? Or will we now sweep to the left and leve teshin lie on the floor with the dust?

lol no, it was just something i mentioned in passing. i've got the majority of things down for the margulism theorem but i need pictures to make my point, which i have but they aren't officially released content so i can't use them. but yes, we will be moving back to the stalker teshin topic as that's what the thread is all about.

[DeFragMe]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

lol no, it was just something i mentioned in passing. i've got the majority of things down for the margulism theorem but i need pictures to make my point, which i have but they aren't officially released content so i can't use them. but yes, we will be moving back to the stalker teshin topic as that's what the thread is all about.

well, just asking, saw a few thread already that midway or in the first quarter started changing to a completly different topic....

 

didnt wanted to end the topic about teshin before we know the truth....

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, DeFragMe said:

well, just asking, saw a few thread already that midway or in the first quarter started changing to a completly different topic....

 

didnt wanted to end the topic about teshin before we know the truth....

lol no, getting distracted isn't my aim. So long as any counterarguments are based in lore that make sense, i welcome all comments. unless the aim is to derail this thread, but after 18 pages in, i don't see that happening lol

 

[HolicErsa]

I dont know if anyone has suggested this but... what if tenshin is to stalker what lotus is to us? he is just guiding stalker like lotus did with us and what we found there was the stalker operator? he might not be a tenno but he is controlling a golem like us.

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

regardless, my other points still remain. the conclave is a standalone area that is controlled solely by Teshin.

Except, it kinda isn't, no. I mean, it's OWNED by Teshin, yes, but the physical arenas are mostly Grineer installations (see also: enough Grineer Conclave maps to fill an entire sub-game that we now call Rathuum) and, as I've argued, the simulated maps are Simaris-controlled

And this isn't even getting into my new point against he theory, wherein Hunhow (claims to) read Stalker's mind. Assuming Hunhow isn't lying about that, it's be pretty obvious if Stalker and Teshin were/weren't the same person after that, and the evidence points to "no"

Edited August 3, 2016 by TARINunit9

[ObviousLee]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Except, it kinda isn't, no. I mean, it's OWNED by Teshin, yes, but the physical arenas are mostly Grineer installations (see also: enough Grineer Conclave maps to fill an entire sub-game that we now call Rathuum) and, as I've argued, the simulated maps are Simaris-controlled

And this isn't even getting into my new point against he theory, wherein Hunhow (claims to) read Stalker's mind. Assuming Hunhow isn't lying about that, it's be pretty obvious if Stalker and Teshin were/weren't the same person after that, and the evidence points to "no"

except, it kinda is. the conclave is it's own neutral syndicate that is not affiliated with any other. not simaris, not the red veil not the Lotus. The conclave is literally it's own thing that is owned and operated solely by teshin. this is not conjecture, this is fact.

hunhow reading his mind? maybe. hell, even possible. not likely though. hunhow is arrogant. He makes a lot of assumptions that everything is going to go his way, which is fine in all honesty because for the most part, it pretty much all does. so his jab at what might be rattling around in stalkers dome simply could have been another arrogant insinuation that hunhow was making.

[ObviousLee]

1 hour ago, HolicErsa said:

I dont know if anyone has suggested this but... what if tenshin is to stalker what lotus is to us? he is just guiding stalker like lotus did with us and what we found there was the stalker operator? he might not be a tenno but he is controlling a golem like us.

honestly, entirely possible. not a thing i can say or think of to say outright no doesn't make sense, so yea, it is possible But at the same time, the motivations of actions lends a bit more towards him being one and the same

 

[TARINunit9]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

except, it kinda is. the conclave is it's own neutral syndicate that is not affiliated with any other. not simaris, not the red veil not the Lotus. The conclave is literally it's own thing that is owned and operated solely by teshin. this is not conjecture, this is fact.

I don't think you understand how "neutral affiliation" works in this lore. According to Cephalon Cordylon, if you rent a room in a Relay (which Teshin does) you abide by the rules of "the Tenno faction", which based on Cordylon's remarks is a political faction headed by Lotus with Cordylon as a powerful secretary. Yeah, as far as politics are concerned, "Tenno" encompasses a LOT more than just the Warframes, and the Conclave Syndicate is allied to it. Not in terms of game mechanics, no, but very clearly in a political sense. And based on Cordylon's other remarks about how Relays work, Teshin's presence means he is deliberately seeking out and paying for an allegiance with the other people, warframes, and cephalons present in the Relay

So once we disprove your very clear falsehood about how Teshin is required to hold himself politically, yeah, it's pretty obvious that he and Simaris have business connections

[ObviousLee]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't think you understand how "neutral affiliation" works in this lore. According to Cephalon Cordylon, if you rent a room in a Relay (which Teshin does) you abide by the rules of "the Tenno faction", which based on Cordylon's remarks is a political faction headed by Lotus with Cordylon as a powerful secretary. Yeah, as far as politics are concerned, "Tenno" encompasses a LOT more than just the Warframes, and the Conclave Syndicate is allied to it. Not in terms of game mechanics, no, but very clearly in a political sense. And based on Cordylon's other remarks about how Relays work, Teshin's presence means he is deliberately seeking out and paying for an allegiance with the other people, warframes, and cephalons present in the Relay

So once we disprove your very clear falsehood about how Teshin is required to hold himself politically, yeah, it's pretty obvious that he and Simaris have business connections

having to rent a space does not mean that singular control is divvied up to one particular cephalon. although yes, everyone must abide by the inherent rules within the relay, that does not mean nor even hint at him getting his digital realty from simaris. remember, if it's the conclave, it means it belongs to teshin. it's his domain. the simulcrum and the mastery testing hall, belong to simaris. meaning all "owned space" there within is dictated and controlled by the entity in charge of it. 

 

having to obey the rules does not equal utilizing other syndicates for their own devices. or have you seen red veil and new loka chaps chilling with darvo recently.

Edited August 3, 2016 by ObviousLee

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

having to rent a space does not mean that singular control is divvied up to one particular cephalon. although yes, everyone must abide by the inherent rules within the relay, that does not mean nor even hint at him getting his digital realty from teshin. remember, if it's the conclave, it means it belongs to teshin. it's his domain. the simulcrum and the mastery testing hall, belong to simaris. meaning all "owned space" there within is dictated and controlled by the entity in charge of it. 

In other words, "if I go up to Teshin and ask him to start a Conclave match, that's ABSOLUTE PROOF that Teshin has his own proprietary digital simulacrum that's independent of Simaris despite looking identical to it!"

Which is both unsubstantiated and doesn't really make a lot of sense

I mean, the game doesn't show your landing craft uncoupling from the Orbiter and flying into a Solar Rail to go to a mission, but that's what happens. Likewise, when you walk up to the Teshin Hotline in your Orbiter (because you don't actually start most Conclave matches from within Teshin's room), and Teshin selects "digital arena", that's not instant proof that you immediately surrender your somatic link to Teshin on the spot. The game is probably skipping a cutscene in which you do whatever it is Lotus/Simaris do to send you to the Simulacrum (flying to a Relay and walking up to Simaris's room? hard to tell)

I mean, Warframe's universe is hinted to have some seriously complex financial arrangements. Gameplay deliberately omits almost all of it. Teshin and Simaris are nextdoor neighbors, literally; if business interaction in Warframe is even halfway realistic, they would be trading all kinds of services (Teshin's knowledge of Orokin culture for Simaris's pricessing power, off the top of my head)

Edited August 3, 2016 by TARINunit9

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

In other words, "if I go up to Teshin and ask him to start a Conclave match, that's ABSOLUTE PROOF that Teshin has his own proprietary digital simulacrum that's independent of Simaris despite looking identical to it!"

Which is both unsubstantiated and doesn't really make a lot of sense

I mean, the game doesn't show your landing craft uncoupling from the Orbiter and flying into a Solar Rail to go to a mission, but that's what happens. Likewise, when you walk up to the Teshin Hotline in your Orbiter (because you don't actually start most Conclave matches from within Teshin's room), and Teshin selects "digital arena", that's not instant proof that you immediately surrender your somatic link to Teshin on the spot. The game is probably skipping a cutscene in which you do whatever it is Lotus/Simaris do to send you to the Simulacrum (flying to a Relay and walking up to Simaris's room? hard to tell)

I mean, Warframe's universe is hinted to have some seriously complex financial arrangements. Gameplay deliberately omits almost all of it. Teshin and Simaris are nextdoor neighbors, literally; if business interaction in Warframe is even halfway realistic, they would be trading all kinds of services

except there is no lore to support any said interaction between simaris and teshin, is there. thats the problem with half of the arguements i'm receiving. If there was lore that suggested the master of the conclave needed even the rendering power of simaris in some fashion, i'd be all ears. but there isn't. If the lore does not suggest it in such a way the one can draw a logical association, then it's a moot point to bring up.

example: lets pretend this thread came out before the war within trailers, which was my link to teshin. if i were still trying to argue that teshin is the stalker, i'd have no lore to actually suggest that he had anything to do with the stalker. i'd have nothing to even hint at it. but, i do have the trailers to make the association with, correct or incorrect though it may be. the point is, there's logical pieces to draw a line between, instead of thinking on how things should be, think of how they are and connect the dots that way.

[DeFragMe]

27 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

example: lets pretend this thread came out before the war within trailers, which was my link to teshin. if i were still trying to argue that teshin is the stalker, i'd have no lore to actually suggest that he had anything to do with the stalker. i'd have nothing to even hint at it. but, i do have the trailers to make the association with, correct or incorrect though it may be. the point is, there's logical pieces to draw a line between, instead of thinking on how things should be, think of how they are and connect the dots that way.

Well, you would only have the fact that Teshin despices the Lotus, wich could have many more reasons then just beeing the stalker.

But hey, we got the trailer, we can use it... we will use it.