Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

Having it function different for one specific frame compared to other frames when it outright removes buffs is what we call special treatment.

Who said that I didn't think it should work that way for all of them?

[Crawd127]

That again? Geez... I really like the new Nekros, even if some abilities was nerfed a little by their own, but now, the whole kit is buffed together. Just changing Desecrate to a toggle is simply a buff. I used him as a lootbot and where's the gameplay beyond that? Sure, the loot drop has been nerfed, but he still gives more loot, just less effectively, but he gained a gameplay in return.

Sure, I'll agree that he's in need of some specific,  unconventional and kinda tailored mods to be effective (AKA Health Conversion + Equilibrium) but at least, they exist and they know have a great usage now. I was thinking a Nekros build with those before that change and it wasn't as effective as it is now, simply because I don't have to "wave at the enemies" to be able to get my stuffs. Instead, it's almost permanent. My friends even start thinking to get Health Conversion for when I play Nekros for the extra tankiness, sure that's a really specific loadout, but it's more effective than a Redirection at the end.

I'm now using him in Defense missions and it's really easy because the shadows get aggro and I don't die in seconds because I didn't "waved at the enemies". Do I want the old desecrate? No. Sure, it's frustrating when a frame you like is changed, but at some point, we have to move ahead and adapt. But a "lootbot" gameplay shouldn't be part of warframe... That change was more than welcome for Nekros, which has now a gameplay other than a "lootbot"

[(PSN)salovel1991]

13 hours ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

Having it function different for one specific frame compared to other frames when it outright removes buffs is what we call special treatment. Just like you need your minions for defense and distraction, other frames need their abilities to be sound as well. Killing the minions instantly is fine.

I disagree. See we have frames like Ember, Frost, Volt, Excalibur, Valkyr, Ash, Atlas, Loki, Banshee, Chroma, Hydroid, etc. whose abilities can simply be recast without it having a negative effect. This requires them to come within range of the frame not the ability. However, this is not the case for Nekros. If a shadow is 45m away and a scrambus walks by the shadow dies. I then have 1 less shadow that already has a decaying mechanic with a full cost to recast it to use for any utility purpose whatsoever. Also Nekros' 4th ability is not instant. If you're in the beginning of a match or fighting higher tier enemies that can potentially one shot you it becomes a hassle. Equinox also suffers from this. Her 3rd and 4th ability rely on how long you maintain them, so on abilities with augments like Peaceful Provocation we lose all of our progress instantaneously.  Also an enemy can simply be behind a corner and scramble us. Our powers are generally restricted by LOS. E.g. I can't greedy pull ammo from around a corner if I can't see it. Anyways they have an aura that simply kills the shadows, keeps me from recasting shadows, doesn't require the enemy to see me, and my shadows automatically charge at it. Also let's look at Frost bubble. It is a permanent ability. When it is hit by a Scrambus the ability DOES NOT disappear. It simply becomes unable to be cast until the Scrambus perishes. Also the bubble doesn't decay by 3% of it's health per second either. But that's not the point. We have more drawbacks on his 4th ability than we do most other frames in game. If you don't run despoil, even with efficiency, Nekros is one of the most power hungry frames in the game. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by (PS4)salovel1991

[Kuestenjung]

On 3.9.2016 at 0:38 AM, Odins_Sohn_MSTK said:

say this again when your main frame was nerfed.

One of my main frames was Ember ( P ), then she got "buffed" and since then I haven´t touched her. 

I loved Saryn til she became so popular that I stopped playing her, then she got her revisit and I love it.

It all comes down to preferences.

[F4talFr4me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

being unable to Loot the day away ruined the frame for you? sounds like Desecrate was what you enjoyed not Nekros, im sorry to say but players like you are why i didn't like that skill and am happy about it being changed( not nerfed, cuz if u used it how it was supposed me be used instead of spamming it while being otherwise useless, then you may have seen that nothing has changed other then the HP orb drop chance witch used to be 100%).

Explain how nekros after the change is usefull in any way. if desecrate was 100% removed no replacement. tell me how that would now make nekros the best warframe in game. seriously. if this rework was so amazing why do i still not see many nekros players in my partys? after the rework people played him to test changes. slowly but surely im starting to see less and less of them in my groups. only seen 1 nekros prime out of all the hours playing since the update. in fact i havent seen much of titania ether.

[IRVoidGuru]

10 minutes ago, F4talFr4me said:

Explain how nekros after the change is usefull in any way. if desecrate was 100% removed no replacement. tell me how that would now make nekros the best warframe in game. seriously. if this rework was so amazing why do i still not see many nekros players in my partys? after the rework people played him to test changes. slowly but surely im starting to see less and less of them in my groups. only seen 1 nekros prime out of all the hours playing since the update. in fact i havent seen much of titania ether.

my Army takes aggro and Deals out more damage then most players sadly. Terrify has always been good for removing armor and CC, but you probably just use 4 CP and call it a day, i don't. soul punch needs synergy with his 4 and that's about it. i solo mostly due to the fact that i cant stand dealing with incompetence, Nekros allows me allies that don't Screw everything up. beyond that though he is Epic in locking down Defense and mobile D missions, Great at intercepts (specially grineer if you can summon scorpions or infested/corrupted with ancients) Great for walking through exterminates ( witch you probably already do with ember). Keeps aggro off of Excavation missions. How is he not useful after this update? ( he cant get as much Loot as before booohooo)

Edited September 9, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[IRVoidGuru]

considering this thread has Devolved to the point where our comments are being deleted ill end my posts on this topic with this

Nekros's Desecrate has been Permanently changed and the old version isn't coming back. WE WANT MORE LOOT! is not a valid argument to DE or to me for that matter, if it was even for a second a valid argument for you then you need to go Buy an in game Market resource booster or drop chance booster and get to farming.

when it comes to skill changes DE takes us into consideration too much but in no way will they allow players to choose numbers like drop chance percentages specially when asking for something like 90 percent extra drop chance, its simply never going to happen. things have changed its time to Move on and get over it.

if you as a player only played Nekros for one skill then this change was always coming for you. getting extra drops from bosses/ mini-bosses shouldn't be a thing, getting 3 drops from one body just for cutting it in half with a visual effect shouldn't give extra loot and now doesn't. it was never the intention of DE to give you the ability to get 5 drops or more from a single body just for having one skill and slash weapons, and the Massive over Abuse of that skill was always going to lead to this change if not a worse one.the old version of how desecrate as a skill worked was Broken and has been Fixed. from what i was able to read and understand in these comments is that players were able to cheat the initial drop chance by simply recasting desecrate and that (broken) aspect of the power made you think that it was supposed to work that good but in reality you were only ripping more out of that skill then you ever were supposed to be able to get in the first place by spamming the heck out if it.

if you as a player care about Nekros as a frame, then it should be easy for you to get over the changes made and move on with your frame. if you used him for only old desecrate then its time to move on to Hydroid ( untill it gets over used and abused and Changed just like this ) or Ivara or Atlas. Nekros has an identity beyond desecrate and its time for players to Realize that or Abandon him all together. these changes are manageable with my build and i don't see myself giving up on this frame even with the loss of 11 of my 18 shadows from the old days. if you truly care about a frame then you will stick with it no matter what DE does to it.

if you wanted any of these arguments to be taken seriously by DE you should have Posted in the Mega thread that the members of DE put up for our feedback into the subject, instead you made an unnecessary forum post about how you want to be able to choose your drop chances, when the fact of the matter is nothing has been nerfed other then the ability to Cheat the skill into doing more then it was ever meant to.

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[Matt89Connor]

4 hours ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

I disagree. See we have frames like Ember, Frost, Volt, Excalibur, Valkyr, Ash, Atlas, Loki, Banshee, Chroma, Hydroid, etc. whose abilities can simply be recast without it having a negative effect. This requires them to come within range of the frame not the ability. However, this is not the case for Nekros. If a shadow is 45m away and a scrambus walks by the shadow dies. I then have 1 less shadow that already has a decaying mechanic with a full cost to recast it to use for any utility purpose whatsoever. Also Nekros' 4th ability is not instant. If you're in the beginning of a match or fighting higher tier enemies that can potentially one shot you it becomes a hassle. Equinox also suffers from this. Her 3rd and 4th ability rely on how long you maintain them, so on abilities with augments like Peaceful Provocation we lose all of our progress instantaneously.  Also an enemy can simply be behind a corner and scramble us. Our powers are generally restricted by LOS. E.g. I can't greedy pull ammo from around a corner if I can't see it. Anyways they have an aura that simply kills the shadows, keeps me from recasting shadows, doesn't require the enemy to see me, and my shadows automatically charge at it. Also let's look at Frost bubble. It is a permanent ability. When it is hit by a Scrambus the ability DOES NOT disappear. It simply becomes unable to be cast until the Scrambus perishes. Also the bubble doesn't decay by 3% of it's health per second either. But that's not the point. We have more drawbacks on his 4th ability than we do most other frames in game. If you don't run despoil, even with efficiency, Nekros is one of the most power hungry frames in the game. 

i'm with you

[Matt89Connor]

another week without any help with Nekros, why?...we have create 30 page of feedback for nothing?

[IRVoidGuru]

19 hours ago, Wolfnrun said:

30 pages and nothing... this thread mirrors a few of the 18.13 megathreads, this is viver gate stretched out in a year, I have watched this from last year to now... this doesn't add up? many frames are getting weaker and maybe soon are weapons... 

This is the viver gate incident explained 

  Hide contents

 

from july 1st last year to this day, it is a DoT variant of viver gate on multiple frames, take what you will from all that has been stated in this thread, the health decay will not change because they don't care, we won't get what we want, they don't wanna hear it. That's it... 

iv never known any of this before but form the short video that you have sent i have a Very Small understanding of what your talking about, so do correct me if im wrong. but a node became an issue and they nerfed the frames used to abuse this?i can see how nerfing the frames was wrong and the node could have easily just been removed. traffic of nodes could have been monitored to see if this happened again in another area and that area could have been temporarily removed untill the broken mechanic of the node or game type was fixed.

but with Nekros's change, im afraid that Desecrate was the abused object here and has been changed to no longer be abused. or am i missing the point?

[Deathkgt]

Please save the Nekros!   I know these points have been mentioned before, still I want to keep bringing them up.

His shadows AI is still AWFUL, and now you get only 7 of them with even worse duration than before.  Not to mention you can't tell when they going to expire.  And if you lose 1 minion, you will have to do the 3 sec casting animation.  So rather than casting desecrate every 5 secs, you now cast shadows every 10-15 secs.  They often get wiped out by Nullifiers which are in every Fissures and high level Corpus missions.

Soul Punch is just as bad.  IMO it's one of the worst 1st skills of any warframe.  It has little damage, only single target and has hardly any range.  Also why you want to ragdoll it away from you, when you need the corpses for desecration?

Terrify is an ok CC skill, but in order for it to cause slow, you need the augment.  And seeing that a normal Nekros needs the desecrate and shadows augment and equilibrium mod, it leaves only 4 mod slots left if you decide to put in the terrify augment.  It's a horribly expensive 2nd skill in terms of energy.

Desecrate is the only skill that got improved, but only for the Nekros himself.  It gives less to teammates now.

 

I don't think it's asking for much to reduce the %life drain by 1% on shadows? As for Soul Punch, give it some CC, energy/life steal, status effect, turn it into a shadow, or something.  I would like Terrify to cost just a bit less in energy.   Is that too much to ask?

[RoninJed]

I love nekros...my most used frame still and I agree with you Deathkgt. DE seemed so concerned making sure his 4th ability wasn't to op after the rework that it ends up being...meh. Meanwhile we have titania who can stay in her 4th forever slaughtering everything in her path. 

[-BM-Mitz]

I find nekros pretty useful still. I agree shadows were nerfed but the duration isn't worse than before. While a lot changed for him, I think he's pretty well off still. While I'd love some of the things you suggest, remember they didn't even made Saryn proc corr. on every tic of miasma...

[Dualstar]

Shadows is... kinda fine i think.

A summon that would run into a Nullie bubble isnt one that you would want anyway. Just frees up the slot which you might fill with another Tech, Gunner or (gods willing) a Bursa.

The health decay is crap though. Especially for Infested and Grineer summons. And i wish i could manipulate the recall range

[Koldraxon-732]

To me, Nekros' Shadows are infinitely lasting so long as you have Energy (Siphon and/or Rage if trying to be creative), his 1 is effective (when used on weak enemies or to knock down that one enemy to pull a finisher on, but yes it needs damage (DOT suggested; decaying effect like Inaros' 1) ), his 2 is to get enemies to stop shooting; pair it with a crowd control weapon and you get yourself units. His 3 no longer needs to be spammed, but is degraded a little as a price.

I do not use augments on my Nekros. Mine is outfitted with Prime Continuity.

To get the most out of your Shadows, ensure you kill the best foes (Sentient fighters INCLUDED) first before doing so. Also ensure they have high hp values (Grineer heavy gunners for example have quite a bit of hp) so they last a bit longer.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I stopped using Natural Talent on Nekros since the rework, and Desecrate is a toggle now thereby excluding any repetitive Smoking-DJ-burger-flipping casting animation for the ability. That's not a buff? Stop talking about the loot, think for a second about the ramifications behind that QoL change.

[FuzzyRamen]

Remove health decay, 10 shadows limit instead of 7. Nekros now have sustain on the field. Otherwise you need to micro manage what you kill (you don't want to kill melee only targets) and what you don't want to kill to be summoned. DE did a good job on Desecrate but totally flopped on Shadow of the Dead as predicted of things changing for no reason.

[Wolfnrun]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

iv never known any of this before but form the short video that you have sent i have a Very Small understanding of what your talking about, so do correct me if im wrong. but a node became an issue and they nerfed the frames used to abuse this?i can see how nerfing the frames was wrong and the node could have easily just been removed. traffic of nodes could have been monitored to see if this happened again in another area and that area could have been temporarily removed untill the broken mechanic of the node or game type was fixed.

but with Nekros's change, im afraid that Desecrate was the abused object here and has been changed to no longer be abused. or am i missing the point?

TLDR : We "abused" (Can't we have 1 thing that's "OP" !?!  AT LEAST ONE!!!???!!! GAAAH! MY HEAD!!!)

So instead of fixing the drop rate which made nekros a "mandatory frame" of sorts for farming, now we have this pile of... poopy...

Then we got 18.13, mag and volt megathreads, actually almost all of those megathreads. instead of changing enemie scaling or pushing the limit's of what powers and frames can do, they were afraid of us being demi-gods and knocked us out... Volt passive is a band-aid, Oberons prevents normal mission progression, mag's  passive is...what?

How far back do we have to go, oh, there's more. (Gives me headaches so ill leave it at that) 

I am for balance, honestly, and admitingly a pinch of  power-creep. Just a little. Synergy has ridded of ult abilites when they are already balanced by costing lot's of energy... 

All that we can do now is express our feelings, next time I see a "feedback megathread" I will ask them to stop making feedback megathreads since none of our feedback is being taken into account, sure, they read them, and they likely laugh at us and so do some in the community who just don't care...and or forget there human and eveything I say is right... I just, ugh... I get that I'm being a bit of a dubby-downer, but this is the truth, my honest opinion that I know many other's would agree with, can't we all have some fun? I need a snickers 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[(XBOX)A Nekros Prime]

SAVE ME!!!!!

[saltygr33n]

I'm not sure why people keep saying 7 is the limit, I've casted a total of 8, but they die in less than 7 seconds, lol. I don't think nekros's shadows are that bad at all, aside from limiting the amount of shadows.

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, saltygr33n said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying 7 is the limit, I've casted a total of 8, but they die in less than 7 seconds, lol. I don't think nekros's shadows are that bad at all, aside from limiting the amount of shadows.

You can break the limit if you make a Shadow of a spawner (M. Osprey, Hyeeka/Drahk Masters....)

[Inarticulate]

Previously, I only had my Nekros set up with a dedicated Desecrate build for when a squad wanted a Nekros for whatever reason. Since the rework, I've begun playing Nekros "for real" (i.e. solo and for purposes other than resource farming or life support) and I've been enjoying it a lot.

I don't find recasting of Shadows of the Dead particularly problematic. The cast duration for when you already have all seven shadows is reasonably short. It's pretty rare for a shadow to actually die in most missions (unless they run into a Nullifier or in mission types with scaling enemy levels). I also need to be casting something on a regular basis anyways to keep Equilibrium up (especially with Zenurik filling up my energy bar as quickly as it does), and Shadows of the Dead serves that purpose fine.

My only real complaint is the fact that the shadow AI doesn't prioritize staying away from Nullifier bubbles. It's rather obnoxious when a Nullifier passes by on a platform below you and wipes everything out instantly.

A quality-of-life enhancement would be to let you dismiss your own shadows on an individual basis if you want to make room for a new shadow you know is in your shadow pool (e.g. that pile of Bursas you just killed).

The only time I've found Soul Punch useful is when a Limbo Banished the last enemy in a low-level Defense mission and was taking too long to kill it himself. That said, I don't think the ragdoll pushes the enemy far enough to leave your Desecrate range most of the time.

Because I only run neutral range on my current build, I don't see Terrify as a crowd-control ability; rather, it's more a panic button you can press if you somehow find yourself surrounded or if you need to revive a fallen squad member (and aren't using Soul Survivor).

5 minutes ago, saltygr33n said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying 7 is the limit, I've casted a total of 8, but they die in less than 7 seconds, lol. I don't think nekros's shadows are that bad at all, aside from limiting the amount of shadows.

That typically happens when summoning Mutalist Ospreys. They always come with a free Crawler that counts as an additional unit. I think there might be a few other enemy types that might behave like that (I don't think I've ever had one of my Fusion Moas drop to low enough health to see if the Attack Drone counts towards your shadow count).

Edited September 9, 2016 by Inarticulate

[IRVoidGuru]

19 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

TLDR : We "abused" (Can't we have 1 thing that's "OP" !?!  AT LEAST ONE!!!???!!! GAAAH! MY HEAD!!!)

So instead of fixing the drop rate which made nekros a "mandatory frame" of sorts for farming, now we have this pile of... poopy...

Then we got 18.13, mag and volt megathreads, actually almost all of those megathreads. instead of changing enemie scaling or pushing the limit's of what powers and frames can do, they were afraid of us being demi-gods and knocked us out... Volt passive is a band-aid, Oberons prevents normal mission progression, mag's  passive is...what?

How far back do we have to go, oh, there's more. (Gives me headaches so ill leave it at that) 

I am for balance, honestly, and admitingly a pinch of  power - creep. Just a little. Synergy has ridded of ult abilites when they are already balanced by costing lot's of energy... 

All that we can do now is express our feelings, next time I see a "feedback megathread" I will ask them to stop making feedback megathreads since none of our feedback is being taken into account, sure, they read them, and they likely laugh at us and so do some in the community who just don't care...and or forget there human and eveything I say right... I just, ugh... I get that I'm being a bit of a dubby-downer, but this is the truth, my honest opinion that I know many other's would agree with, can't we all have some fun? I need a snickers 

i see , i was missing the point. its about us not being heard or at least feeling ignored. i don't see the Nekros changes as that bad but i do see that ppl are talking about this getting to 30 pages with what feels like no response in the forum or in game. i dont mind volts passive but i do mind the Burning energy from both distance and per sec while Also having a duration limit to volts shield when picked up, one of these 3 limiters have to go. idk about Oberon i tend to avoid him. mags passive is.......moving on. i think that Nekros needs more time before we go drastically changing anything, i have a build that works and is fun and iv seen others say the same. im not saying over all that things DE has done have all been good , im not blind but i do think that these Nekros changes are all for the best other then the HP loss thing.

But over all i see your point now

Edited September 9, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

Just one Tenno's opinion, but I love the new Nekros. He's not only a loot booster he's now a tank. Soul punch is a very useful skill. It does absolutely no damage, but if you want to get a VIP out of the fight for a bit, it works like a charm. Terrify can be insanely useful. A few spams and every enemy leaves you alone for a bit, allowing you to revive enemies, activate life support, gather health orbs, etc. Hek, take 4 Terrify built Nekros to an interception and wave 500 will be just as easy as wave 5. Desecrate happens passively; enough said. SoTd is rather lackluster. They're more of an "attack these instead of me for a few seconds" than an army of the dead. It's almost a less effective form of terrify. Shoot, Nix can turn every enemy in the room against each other. His 4th doesn't really serve it's purpose, but the rest of his abilities are golden.

Edited September 9, 2016 by (PS4)B0XMAN517

[Tizodd]

Shadows of the Dead would be much better if:

• Duration of any type is removed...this includes health drain.
• Soul Punch could be used on shadows to kill the ones you no longer want to keep (adds ability synergy and more player control).
• Shadow cap is increased to 10; or the damage multiplier is raised by ~1 (many of us had 20 shadows before the rework.  7 isn't even half of that).
• SotD energy cost is based on how many new shadows you spawn (i.e.: healing current shadows should use less energy than spawning new shadows).

These changes would make Nekros' kit pretty much perfect imo.

If nothing else though, the base health drain needs to be dropped by at least 1.  It would also be nice if shadows didn't stray so much.  They need some type of soft tether to the player