Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[(XBOX)Skode]

1 hour ago, Jakorak said:

yay elitism that fails to realize vets still occasionally have to gather resources and still have super ludicrously rare mods to find that they might miss on the ground in the din of a thousand drops without vacuum or lodged 5 meters into a wall

 

You know 700 hours and I've never seen a mod embedded into a wall nor seen vacuum as mandatory - not even close. Rare mod I might miss? If only there was a glowing indicator of said rare mods so they stick out like a sore thumb... oh wait!

I don't want vacuum in pets. In fact I hate how much it and simlulor drag stuff I want away from me. Mods should not be eight feet in the air - kavats and kubrows never cause that to happen....

[Jorak_Falconstar]

At work so i dont really have time to read all this and havent actually seen the dev stream.

Seems to me like they are taking the most complex route to solve this.

 

fast easy solution is to just take the existing Vaccum mod and change it from "Carrier" to "Companion"

 

Fixed fast and easy, and everyone would be happy.

 

why make 3 new mods that will bork up everyone's build when one little change will solve the problem all the way around?

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

Then why even use any other Companion?

Carrier Prime is the tankiest Sentinel, bar none. His weapon deals pretty nice and steady damage. Vacuum is just a band-aid Mod for the cruddy pick-up range all Warframes have. The fact this problem still exists in Archwing as well is a great sign (not really).

All this change would do is make it so people would use Carrier Prime even more, as Sentinels effectively have far too many essential Mods to take any off for these three parts to Vacuum. Carrier Prime, even with less essential mods, is still the best tank wise, and since Sentinels die permanently after a while, you really want to keep such a Sentinel alive as long as possible. Other Sentinels just don't compare, ability wise or tankiness wise.

Add that to other great Mods like Medi-Ray, Guardian and Animal Instinct, and now we have to sacrifice them to fit a cruddier version of Vacuum.

Why not just let all Warframes have Mag's Passive innately, and change her Passive to something else? Allow us to edit in the settings whether or not we want to pick up specific things.

That way, there's hardly a "best Companion" to use. Buff up Kubrows and buff other Sentinels to Carrier's level, and done, just like that. 

Simple.

This is just a bad change, a nonsensical change, and a change that helps no one. I feel DE is trying ffaarr too hard to appeal to the minority in this case, as very few people care if they get extra Energy or Health, or even Ammo.

Edited September 17, 2016 by (XB1)Graysmog

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

I really dont think vacuum should be universal... seriously

 

Functionality or Damage not both.

Sacrifice damage from a lesser entity so you can loot as without hassle should definatly be left alone. But vacuum can be great at times especially depending on the frame. Being able to Nekros close range - desicrate & auto loot health is highly effective. (Oberon also has a health orb drop on death function - carrier making him more playable than some choose to believe)

But if more companions can do this select frames can be more relyable (but like nerfed due to this) Auto loot invisble Ember that kills everything without combat (assuming shade had vacuum) looting energy through rooms... may as well make energy cost plat to regen the game would be to easy.

I may be looking at this wrong but my only real assumption is people are mad that they forget to loot something and groupmate gloats that they got it. Build Carrier, Never Unequipt it. This pertains to memory issues (in real life). And adding something like this will only increase your zombie like reflexes.

[NativeKiller]

6 minutes ago, DrFail said:

As somebody who uses carrier a lot but also swaps to Djinn or even no sentinel fairly often, I don't mind the idea of putting carriers effect into multiple mods, but I think they should cut out the Credit and Ammo mod and distribute it into the other two. Resources get credits added on, Health an Energy get ammo. This is because the Credits + Ammo one is by far the weakest combination of the three and will likely only see common use by those who have trouble distinguishing ammo types. Which isn't really a super fair trade-off in my opinion.

 

Unlike mods or resources, the majority of credits tend to come from end of mission rewards unless you're in the mission for a long time. In most cases in any mission you'd actively be farming credits in you will be doing so because there's a large credit mission completion award. Picking up credits isn't nearly as big of a priority as picking up mods. Similarly, Ammo drops arn't as in demand because not every ammo drop applies to you. You see a single blue ribbon inside into a pool of assorted ammo, slide through, and pick up your rifle bullets. Unlike resources, you don't want the entire stack that extends far past your pickup box. Rather, you just want one or two items inside it, and can pick up all you need by just doing a quick hit and run on the pile.

 

The most useful part of ammo pickup is the fact that ammo is most distinguished by color. I know of several colorblind people who run vacuum simply because they can't tell what ammo is what quickly. These are the people who would use the ammo pickup mod. And honestly, it doesn't seem right to cost them an extra slot for the penalty of not distinguishing certain colors well.

 

In addition, combining money and ammo into the other two mods creates a very obvious, very clear divide in the what the mods do differently. One mod would give you resources important to you during the mission (Health, Energy, Ammo) and the other would give you resources important after the mission (Mods, Resources, Credits). It's hard to find a cleaner and more obvious split than that.

+1

 

I am actually semi-color blind by birth so I can attest to this.

Edited September 17, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, That1Cactus said:

except it isn't.

Basically people have been asking for peanut butter and DE has given us the peanut butter. It's not our "favorite" peanut butter but it is still the same peanut butter. The marmite would have been DE removing vacuum all together.

"Hey man, I got you the peanut butter you asked for. Sorry it took me a couple years, but at least I got it now! So, here's a jar of peanut oil, here's some crushed peanuts, and here's some sugar and preservatives. So now, you can get some bread, pour some oil on it, sprinkle some sugar and peanuts, spread it around a bit and... voila! A peanut butter sandwich, just like you asked for! It IS what you asked for, isn't it?"

[bl4ckhunter]

7 minutes ago, DrFail said:

The most useful part of ammo pickup is the fact that ammo is most distinguished by color. I know of several colorblind people who run vacuum simply because they can't tell what ammo is what quickly. These are the people who would use the ammo pickup mod. And honestly, it doesn't seem right to cost them an extra slot for the penalty of not distinguishing certain colors well.

That's not exclusively true, the most useful part of ammo pickup is that some weapons are unuseable without vacuum, the Kohm requires 24 (i kid you not) ammo pack to refill ONE clip, so you need ALL the ammo that ever drops if you want a chance of keeping that thing going, same goes of a lot of other weapons too, if you want to use any full auto weapon for more than ten minutes you need carrier

Edited September 17, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[Azrael]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Skode said:

You know 700 hours and I've never seen a mod embedded into a wall

This happens all the time to lots of people. So congrats on having so much luck, but I don't think your unusual experiences have anything to do with players wanting to get their mods out of the floor and walls.

[(XBOX)Skode]

Just now, Lord_Azrael said:

This happens all the time to lots of people. So congrats on having so much luck, but I don't think your unusual experiences have anything to do with players wanting to get their mods out of the floor and walls.

Strange logic - your not demanding DE fix this "common" bug you experience so as to not need vacuum but demand they retain the bandaid fix instead? Let's be honest - it's an excuse to keep carrier vacuum as is. They're not removing vacuum - in fact even Dethcube or Diriga fans need no longer fear walls either no? Everyone wins? Lol

[NativeKiller]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

"Hey man, I got you the peanut butter you asked for. Sorry it took me a couple years, but at least I got it now! So, here's a jar of peanut oil, here's some crushed peanuts, and here's some sugar and preservatives. So now, you can get some bread, pour some oil on it, sprinkle some sugar and peanuts, spread it around a bit and... voila! A peanut butter sandwich, just like you asked for! It IS what you asked for, isn't it?"

Also the original peanut butter that you had before, costed 1 mod slot.

 

The combination version however, will take up to 3 slots, enjoy! :)

Edited September 17, 2016 by NativeKiller

[PsiWarp]

I appreciate that they recognize Carrier stealing the spotlight for so long due to Vacuum and granting any Sentinel the ability to vacuum. What I don't like is the way it might be executed.

The dev proposed version provides players choice in what to scoop up. Great, but it limits the benefit of vacuum to a certain type of loot.

• 3 mods, for Orbs, Creds & Ammo, Endo/Resources/Mods/Etc respectively. Presumably not able to be slotted together (not sure), and if allowed to slot together in one build, takes way too many slots out of the Sentinel.

What I would like to see instead:

• 1 mod. Each Endo/Fusion rank adds additional loot types to the vacuum-able pool.
• Rank 1: Credits. The most basic resource you want to pick up (like why would you not want to pick these up)
• Rank 2: Endo/Resources/Mods/Etc. Specialized resources. Still want to pick these up now and then.
• Rank 3: Ammo, Health and Energy Orbs. Combat-related resources. Sometimes want to pick up, sometimes want to wait.

[timur_the_lame]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Strange logic - your not demanding DE fix this "common" bug you experience so as to not need vacuum but demand they retain the bandaid fix instead? Let's be honest - it's an excuse to keep carrier vacuum as is. They're not removing vacuum - in fact even Dethcube or Diriga fans need no longer fear walls either no? Everyone wins? Lol

It's an extremely difficult thing to retool all maps and make sure enemies do not spawn in walls, or loot simply not go through walls when it is dropped near it--possibly impossible.  It is an extraordinarily easy thing to keep vacuum the same.  Or just put it on frames.

[Azrael]

Just now, (XB1)Skode said:

Strange logic - your not demanding DE fix this "common" bug you experience so as to not need vacuum but demand they retain the bandaid fix instead?

Convenience for loot gathering is not a band-aid, it's an integral part of many, many games. And nobody is hoping they won't fix mods falling into the floor, many threads have been made asking for exactly that. I have contributed to them. That tenno was trying to cast doubt on the idea of mods falling into the floor or walls, and I was saying that it happens. I don't know where you saw all this stuff you've been reading into my comment.

But we want vacuum even if they fix mods, because we want to get our ammo/credits/resources/mods/health/energy without having to step on all of it piece by piece. The only bandaid was introducing vacuum instead of just giving a loot AoE to all frames or companions.

[(XBOX)Skode]

Just now, timur_the_lame said:

It's an extremely difficult thing to retool all maps and make sure enemies do not spawn in walls, or loot simply not go through walls when it is dropped near it--possibly impossible.  It is an extraordinarily easy thing to keep vacuum the same.  Or just put it on frames.

Or just equip the one mod that matters - the resource vacuum. No one gives a jobbie really if an ammo pickup is in a wall. Vacuum as is cost a mod slot anyway so nobody is losing out save having to pick up the more common less coveted stuff (even then they can mod for that too if they really want - on any sentinels no less)

[Mak_Gohae]

18 minutes ago, Tuxie said:

I mean, am I wrong for thinking that DE is out of touch with their own game? How in holy mother of hell can someone possibly think that this is anything resembling a good idea? I don't know.

i think is a good idea, mainly cause i suggested a while back.

They were not going to simply let you plop the mod everywhere, that's madness.

Being able to do that with all frames means that they would need rebalance the game because of how this would affect the whole game.

16 minutes ago, NativeKiller said:

Do you know WHY something like this is even happening?

 

It's because D.E doesn't really "play" its own game. :3

 

I know that we are the "testers" but man, couldn't they have someone who actually has "some" idea about the game?

 

ffs...

This is happening because they play the game and count the numbers.

standard carrier on all sentinels would be too much.

[bl4ckhunter]

So much beating around the bush, we don't need a "vacuum mod" in itself. we need a sulution to an issue, that issue is loot littering and some weapons starving out of ammo, we 2 have solutions:

-1 rework loot so there's not so damn much scattered everywhere

-2 Buff base pickup radius to a decent range (5-7m or so)

the problem with the pruposed suggestion is not  that it's a "nerf" it's that it just doesn't solve the issue, vacuum is a bandaid in iself, splitting it into 3 smaller bandaids doesn't help any.

Edited September 17, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[NativeKiller]

1 minute ago, Mak_Gohae said:

i think is a good idea, mainly cause i suggested a while back.

They were not going to simply let you plop the mod everywhere, that's madness.

Being able to do that with all frames means that they would need rebalance the game because of how this would affect the whole game.

This is happening because they play the game and count the numbers.

standard carrier on all sentinels would be too much.

Yes, and separating a very popular mod into 3 different mods would apparently not be too much for our mod slots at all. /s

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Or just equip the one mod that matters - the resource vacuum.

And the mod vacuum. Need credits? Oh, too bad, we're trying to solve your problem by having you equip two mods instead of one three, so you don't get any credits. Better not take a bullet hose! You like the kohm? Oh, that's too bad. Now you get a synoid simulor, just like everyone else!

[Avalona]

Disapprove. You can already see that vacuum is highly-sought with people wanting to use it over their other sentinels, so what do you think will happen if you force the already-large carrier player base to have to use 3 mods over single functioning one?

I'll only approve the following :

1) Every other sentinels use those 3 vacuum mods

2) Carrier retain its old single, universal vacuum mod

3) Carrier given the ammo conversion precept as planned

4) The universal vacuum and the new ammo conversion precept CANNOT be used together

5) Now that each sentinel can hold different precept, you can then come up with more unique way for other sentinels (maybe in the future, Dethcube can pick either existing close range laser, or a new precept that let it shoot small missiles for AoE at longer range!)

Now that is the change which will satisfy ALL players, both those who carrier and those wanting to use other sentinels. The last part of my suggestion also expand the use of sentinel to limitless potential and giving player even more choices! what's not to like?

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

I'll just have to hope DE knows what it's doing. If the vacuum change makes the game less enjoyable for me, I'm not using another sentinel, I'm playing something other than Warframe.

The 3 mod split just sounds bad, I want a simple setting to enable vacuum for frames, DE can even halve the radius and lose Carrier in the void and I'll still be happy. 

[(XBOX)Skode]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Convenience for loot gathering is not a band-aid, it's an integral part of many, many games. And nobody is hoping they won't fix mods falling into the floor, many threads have been made asking for exactly that. I have contributed to them. That tenno was trying to cast doubt on the idea of mods falling into the floor or walls, and I was saying that it happens. I don't know where you saw all this stuff you've been reading into my comment.

But we want vacuum even if they fix mods, because we want to get our ammo/credits/resources/mods/health/energy without having to step on all of it piece by piece. The only bandaid was introducing vacuum instead of just giving a loot AoE to all frames or companions.

Convenience is not integral friend. It's a nice thing sure but a luxury, some are acting as though it's quite the contrary.

[Azrael]

Just now, (XB1)Skode said:

Convenience is not integral friend. It's a nice thing sure but a luxury, some are acting as though it's quite the contrary.

That's funny, cause most games seem to have that exact convenience. Maybe it's because games exist to be fun and not annoying?

[timur_the_lame]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

I'll just have to hope DE knows what it's doing. If the vacuum change makes the game less enjoyable for me, I'm not using another sentinel, I'm playing something other than Warframe.

The 3 mod split just sounds bad, I want a simple setting to enable vacuum for frames, DE can even halve the radius and lose Carrier in the void and I'll still be happy. 

R.I.P. Elvenbane's hopes.

[bl4ckhunter]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Convenience is not integral friend. It's a nice thing sure but a luxury, some are acting as though it's quite the contrary.

Annoyance on the other hand, it's pretty solid when you feel it. Carrier at this moment is the most used sentinel. Why? becouse picking up loot is damn annoying. People want universal vacuum innate to frames becouse picking up loot manually makes their experience worse, is this point so hard to get across? why should people have a worse experience when they can have a better one with no issue attached? The wide majority of the players is ALREADY using vacuum and the game hasn't exploded yet, we won't improve something becouse it's not necessary that it's better even if it could be, what kind of logic is that? if something can be improved to give you a better experience then it damn well should!

Edited September 17, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[NativeKiller]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Skode said:

Convenience is not integral friend. It's a nice thing sure but a luxury, some are acting as though it's quite the contrary.

Convenience may not be mandatory for PLAYING the game but it may be mandatory for actually being able to ENJOY the game.

 

I don't know about others but I don't feel like picking up every single loot, piece by piece myself.

 

I'd rather have my carrier pick up my loot for me while I actually play the game.

Edited September 17, 2016 by NativeKiller