Synoid Heliocor why does it break the mold?!

[bl4ckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Edit: To those who say it "isn't a status weapon", you are just being contrary because you want more power creep. most people consider 15-20% crit to be viable crit, 20% status is totally viable as a status weapon stats-wise. 

It's a watered down jat kittag and there's zero reason to pick it over a jat kittag since it has LESS of EVERYTHING. 

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

It's a watered down jat kittag and there's zero reason to pick it over a jat kittag since it has LESS of EVERYTHING. 

If you read my post further, I point out the bigger issue here though, not necessarily the stats themselves, but the damage type. 

This is supposed to be primarily a status weapon (that much is obvious). Despite the Jat Kittag having a lot of status... hardly anyone uses it for status. 

Why is that? Because it is an unholy mix of impact, puncture and slash that will proc impact more often than not if you build it for status. 

Even if they kept the numbers, if they just changed the damage type to magnetic, I feel this thing could have a better place in the game. Right now, it does feel a little more like it is being run for syndicate swag. 

But that isn't technically true either, that it has less of everything. It IS faster, even if not by much, and it does have a higher channeling multiplier even if that isn't much either, and it does have the poorly done specter as well. Yes, a lot of it's stats are lower, but your statement is not true at all. It does not have less of everything. 

 

Make the damage pure elemental, make the specter better/more/useful, etc. Much better weapon. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[bl4ckhunter]

7 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But that isn't technically true either, that it has less of everything. It IS faster, even if not by much, and it does have a higher channeling multiplier even if that isn't much either, and it does have the poorly done specter as well. Yes, a lot of it's stats are lower, but your statement is not true at all. It does not have less of everything. 

You're correct, doesn't have less ov everything, it just has less of everything that counts, channeling is horrifiying and no one uses it and the little attack speed it has on the kittag is 0.08, the spectre is so useless it's not even worth mention, on the other hand it has less status chance, less damage, less crit chance and less range. it's a straight downgrade and it will remain a straight downgrade even if it was pure magnetic, besides magnetic proc is just as useless as the unholy spread of ips, i'd rather have pure electric. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, bl4ckhunter said:

You're correct, doesn't have less ov everything, it just has less of everything that counts, channeling is horrifiying and no one uses it and the little attack speed it has on the kittag is 0.08, the spectre is so useless it's not even worth mention, on the other hand it has less status chance, less damage, less crit chance and less range. it's a straight downgrade.

If it was pure elemental and they tweaked the specter thing to make it useful, I think in a more intangible way it wouldn't be a straight downgrade. That's pretty much my only point here. 

My overall point is that making it a status sidegrade is a good idea, but that they just implemented it wrong. Perhaps it also needs slightly higher stats than it has (and magnetic plus fixed specter won't be quite enough). But my bigger point is taking issue with the original post in the thread that the weapon would only have value if it was a crit spike weapon with direct power creep to the Heliocor. 

I am personally tired of the attitude from some in this game that weapons only have value if they are straight upgrades to previous weapons and go all crit spike damage on the enemy. That is what I was really responding to. Overall, I don't really disagree with you -- you make a convincing case. 

[bl4ckhunter]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

I am personally tired of the attitude from some in this game that weapons only have value if they are straight upgrades to previous weapons and go all crit spike damage on the enemy. That is what I was really responding to. Overall, I don't really disagree with you -- you make a convincing case. 

I do agree that it doesn't need to be 100% better than the heliocor (or the kittag either, i love mah kitty) becouse honestly we don't need another galatine prime as of yet, but it's in a pretty bad place for an expansive mr12 weapon.

[Tesseract7777]

Oh btw you either edited or I totally failed to notice the part about magnetic not being great proc either... no, not against a lot of enemies (non corpus enemies), but corpus are quite tough now, so magnetic has some use. More importantly though, it is about the spread. On an IPS weapon you have three damage types vying for status along with the status you want on your weapon -- it makes it harder for your build to be reliable and focus on getting the procs you need, even with a high status chance. 

Even if it were purely physical damage, just being ONE damage type, or one combined damage type, of some kind, even if it was all impact, or electric or magnetic or what have you, would make it way better for status than being i/p/s. 

So my real point when it comes to changing the damage type isn't so much because magnetic is that useful (not really no, I only say magnetic btw because it fits the theme of the other two), but because you can more reliably choose the procs you want to use on the weapon, since you only have one innate damage type/potential proc getting in your way, as opposed to three. 

We didn't need a Galatine Prime IMO. It was way too power creepy and I am still not sure what they were thinking. Making it as strong as war... sure, making it even stronger... why? 

But yeah, I love my Jat myself, and unfortunately I have to admit I won't find myself using the Synoid Heliocor instead of it, unless I am trying to be thematic with a full Cephalon loadout. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Cpl_Facehugger]

20 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

The idea was that it'll get a cool useful passive and they didn't want it to make the original variant useless so they decided to reduce the damage to compensate. However by having only one spectre at a time and no eximuses allowed, it failed to live up to the idea of a sidegrade.

Basically DE didn't want another Simulor situation where Samaris' weapon becomes inferior. After all, Suda is the only syndicate to make a variant of another syndicate's weapon so it's expected to be a sidegrade.

I'd settle for an actual sidegrade, TBH. 

 

6 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

If you count the right procs in strategic situations, especially if the team has x4cp, and you build properly, I think both are going to perform similarly well at sortie and up play... 

I can have a hammer that in certain limited situations is equal to my normal heliocore, maybe, if the stars align, or I can have a normal heliocore that's great in virtually all situations. The only reason I would ever use the Suda heliocore is to mess around with the (ultra weak) spectre gimmick. The suda heliocore is just flat out worse than the normal heliocore because status weapons, especially status melee weapons, are garbage in this game compared to crit weapons. 

[shyguyk]

The thing has its uses. You can whack an ancient for 90% damage reduction/status immunity. You can whack a bombard for knockdowns, and you can whack a tech for DPS

[IceColdHawk]

Noone's saying it has to be much stronger than the normal heliocor. It can just have the same stats almost like the telos boltace. But nerfing it is complete nonsense. Every syndi weapon got buffs and/or unique effects. And all of the sudden the synoid heliocor just plays the black sheep or what? Not even going to mention that we have galatine and fragor prime so a "powercreep" would be very questionable in this case.

[Fansay]

1 hour ago, shyguyk said:

The thing has its uses. You can whack an ancient for 90% damage reduction/status immunity. You can whack a bombard for knockdowns, and you can whack a tech for DPS

I tried that once. There was a weak enemy standing beside. Guess which died first...
:/
If better enemies replaced worse ones it would be significantly better.


Sidegrade is what it should be. Magnetic damage is thematic and is really what I hope they change it to.

[Wereduck_of_Arrakis]

On 9/17/2016 at 3:13 AM, Rodag said:

I understand the thoughts behind this but (unless i'm mixing things up) stuff from simaris can be gained far easier and earlier by players than stuff from the other syndicates so imo he doesn't really qualify as one of the syndicates in regard of supposed weapon strength.

Kinda yes & no on getting Simaris' version easier.

If you consider the syndicate rank-ups then yes, the synoid is a huge PitA to get.  However we shouldn't ignore the fact that you buy the synoid ready-to-use while with the normal heliocor you buy a blueprint.

...a blueprint that which requires a gammacor as an ingredient.

...and that ingredient requires 2 argon to build.

So while both cost a good chunk of syndicate rep, getting the normal heliocor requires that you build two weapons and possibly a fair bit of resource roulette while the synoid is ready the instant you leave the terminal.

Probably also bears mentioning that suda rep is aquired from normal gameplay while simaris rep requires you to put your mission objectives on hold while you scan things.

IMHO the normal helio is far more demanding to get.

[bl4ckhunter]

forget the standard heliocor look at this

 

I already knew it was worse but seeing it black on white is disheartning.

Edited September 19, 2016 by bl4ckhunter

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

When the original came out I knew this would be the weapon Cephalon Suda would be using. It's a bummer that it's actually weaker than the original. I look forward to DE buffing it... hopefully, cause it's kind of embarrassing.

[--DSP--]

On 9/18/2016 at 4:07 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

This one is more of a status weapon...

The regular has some of the strongest stats in the game... for a melee. And you wanted the Synoid Heliocor to be even stronger? 

"Status Weapon"

Tell me War is a status Weapon too.

And yes, we want Synoid Heliocor to be stronger, because it is supposedly an UPGRADE. Power creep is not an excuse for a weapon to be release just to release a weaker weapon with the same melee model.

Will you make the same argument if Galatine Prime has lower stats than Galatine?

Edited September 19, 2016 by --DSP--

[--DSP--]

4 hours ago, bl4ckhunter said:

forget the standard heliocor look at this

 

I already knew it was worse but seeing it black on white is disheartning.

Adding on to that, the Jat Kittag can also send enemies fly. Which is even a better passive than what we get from Heliocor.

[GSDAkatsuki]

Synoid Heliocor honestly should just have the same stats as standard Heliocor but with the attack speed buff and its new meh decoy gimmick.

 

As for those saying it's a status weapon, lol.  A Heavy IPS weapon as a status weapon? Too funny. You're not going to strip armor fast enough, and its not a pure elemental with high enough status to keep doing good AOE proc build.

Edited September 19, 2016 by GSDAkatsuki

[shyguyk]

If the number of specters wasnt limited i think it would be fine.

They're on a timer, and limited by how much energy you got, so why not?

[bl4ckhunter]

On 19/9/2016 at 4:35 PM, shyguyk said:

If the number of specters wasnt limited i think it would be fine.

They're on a timer, and limited by how much energy you got, so why not?

they're also very VERY dumb and don't actually follow you at all.

[Neightrix]

Comparing to Jat Kittag is interesting but I feel like the comparison it to Heliocor should be the one to focus on - since Jat Kittag doesn't scan (and is still the best hammer). I think a buff to the passive would be fine.

It may be weaker, but I'll probably still use it over the original because slow hammers are painful to use. Looking at you, Fragor Prime.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Neightrix

[RistN]

All in all I love DE for trying something new and giving syndicate weapons uniqe passives.For Vaykor sydon,Cephalon heliocor and Secura lecta story is that they are just not good at all.Their passives are just not practica and they dont give us much benefit.Sancti,Telos and Rakta are another story and realy fun to play with.

[Chipputer]

On 9/17/2016 at 1:35 AM, Heatnix. said:

So the weapon is a downgrade AND people still defend the decision of DE to even create it.

God forbid a weapon not be the next level in power creep and, instead, be a status variant and given a slightly interesting effect. Guess I'd better start bashing DE now.

[bl4ckhunter]

5 hours ago, Chipputer said:

God forbid a weapon not be the next level in power creep and, instead, be a status variant and given a slightly interesting effect. Guess I'd better start bashing DE now.

it's a serious downgrade of an easily accessible mr5 weapon which also has a much better "passive" and it's not even really viable as a status weapon. it's literally the second worst hammer, and the worst hammer is a mr2 newbie weapon. Tell me how that's fine, i mean it doesn't need to be better than the heliocor but it should be at least just as good, and it's not.

[Autongnosis]

On 17/9/2016 at 10:18 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Make the damage pure elemental, make the specter better/more/useful, etc. Much better weapon. 

^ This.

Synoid Heliocor is simply a failed creation. It doesn't necessarily have to do 2.5x as much damage as the Heliocor, that would be completely ridiculous, but a status-based hammer done like this simply does not work. It's a worse Jat Kittag both damage and status wise, and the added passive really doesn't help due to how enemy damage scales infinitely slower than enemy EHPs - let alone for the fact that the AI of Specters is not really great AND you cannot spawn Eximi to get actual constant benefits from it.

Just switching the damage to Magnetic base and maybe giving it a teeny bit more range over the standard Heliocor would make this a proper sidegrade, and not a weird hammer that doesn't know what he's doing in this game .-.
I'm personally a fan of, instead of improving the specter itself, make it able to spawn Eximi and give us the chance to change it on the fly instead of being stuck with the wrong one if a charger happened to pass in front of that Ancient Healer at the wrong time.

[UrbanShade]

Uhm, Synoid Heliocore arent unplayable one, it can be used even in 3d mission of sorties, but same goes to practically any well modded melee/frame combo, even machete class with maiming strike can be used as survivability tool and x4 damage increase, so with body count u will kill enemies (yeah, 10-20 times slower than decent melees, but still kill). But its not excuse for that thing to be in that state. Its not sidegrade, as mentioned alot, its downgrade. Its cant be called status weapon, because hammers have not so much reach and speed in both stances, and also, that one, and all other hammer, except Sibear, are physical damage, so most of the time they will proc one of their physical procs. The best buff advice also comes from people, who against powercreep - to not overbuff Synoid Helio they should change its damage type to pure elemental one. Magnetic? Or... I dont care, really. To anything, but not physical one. So atleast, even with magnetic, i can take it to infested to proc blast/fire/cold/electro to cc them or gas to damage them. So, hyst little thing, changing of damage type, will be HUGE buff to it.

Passive, and specters AI, on other hand, is particullary different theme, and in same time, Secure Lecta (overall decent weapon), Vaykor Sydon (overall good weapon), Sancti magistar (overall really good weapon), Rakta DD (overall decent weapon in strange class of melee), all of its passives should be looked at, because they are glitchy/buggy/clunky to use, and in case of Lecta, should be reworked. Even best of bunch, Telos Boltace, have some issues with its wave thingy, that was mentioned on forum.

[Keltik0ne]

Well, if it wasn't for bloodlust, bodycount and berserker, the new version would be ...... sorry, can't do it, this thing is garbage.