The Vacuum Within: Hotfix 1

[Raven_Face]

1 hour ago, Khonsu-II said:

If you never wanted Vacuum, why did you just not use the mod?  Why should the other 80% of players be forced to play like you when you have the options?

 

To make a blanket statement of my own; people defending the vacuum nerf seem to be personally offended by people not wanting to play like them.  But you are in the massive minority, and you have always had the option to not use vacuum. You always had the option to use other sentinels, or pets, or not bring a companion at all.

Now the option has been taken away from everyone else, can you really not see why they are upset? Why not buff the other sentinels so they have the same vacuum as carrier if you want people to try other ones? Why not just make the vacuum mod universal? Then people would still have the option to not use the mod if they find vacuum so personally offensive, and there would be more reason to use the other sentinels for people who enjoy the old vacuum.

First off, do not assume I use Carrier like the so-called majority. Look at my profile and you'll know my most used companion is Helios. I didn't force anyone to play like I do because my main point is that they are too spoiled by the utility that Vacuum brings, and it's way past the right time to change it. I'm not assuming you will or will not continue to use Carrier. I'm not assuming if OTHER people will or will not continue to use Carrier. I'm just telling everyone to live with the pan-Sentinel changes, and they ARE, NOT, FINAL.

Second, massive minority? What kind of a grammar are you using? Less than half of the playerbase use the forums here and we all know it. In an interview, our dear [DE]Rebecca said that there's an average of 60K players who play Warframe everyday. Do we have an average of 60K players who are forum posters? None of us can represent everyone, but you are here to attempt representation of the 'majority' you think you can vouch for.

THEN, if you really want us to have 'option' to use other Sentinels and animal companions, why are you trying to force them to receive pickup-range changes? What is the merit in trying to do so? I don't want MY companions to have the same OP pickup range as Vacuum mod. Why don't you think from THAT perspective for a change? Oh, right. Because you assume that everyone -wants- an abnormally large lazy loot pick range.

Finally, all Sentinels don't need a mod to have the pickup range and that's a good thing. You are putting up arms because you don't think it's good enough. Yet another example of acting entitled. Why don't you just say what's bad about other Sentinels and get on with it? Animal Instinct alone had already gotten me more common resources than I can ever expend. If I don't want to pick up any more, why should I be forced to pick up more due to a forced pickup range increase?

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, Newerton said:

Not discussing what a player. Everybody wants! This is called feedback from players! If 80% is not satisfied, the company has to review the problem.

 

A few loud, angry people, does not equal "what everybody wants". The amount of people who even give feedback at all is a tiny portion of the player-base. 

And among those people, it is rarely any clear majority opinion -- there is lots of discussion and different opinions, just like in this thread. I for one completely disagree with you and others that it should be 12m, at most it should be 8m. And just reading this thread, I can tell that there is certainly no clear majority that disagrees with me. There are probably roughly half that think it should be 12m, and roughly half that think 6-8 is where it should be. 

It's called differences of opinion -- the devs can't cater their game to just one angry player. 

[Babellon]

Just now, Newerton said:

Not discussing what a player. Everybody wants! This is called feedback from players! If 80% is not satisfied, the company has to review the problem.

except the company is not hearing from 80% of the players. They are only hearing from those of us on the forums..and we are at best 1% of the player base.

Yes, our feedback is important to them, so try to give them some quality input. Don't simply spray them with your effervescent ire and call it a refreshing breeze. Have a rational conversation with the Developers, the ones in charge of the game. 

[Temp0ralfool]

so, with Carrier (relatively) useless now, any word on Wyrm Prime getting unvaulted, or maybe a new prime sentinel?

[War-Zone]

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Yup, the game is for the players, and you are just one of them. It is amazing how ridiculous your post looks. You are sitting here saying that "they should do what the players want" while arguing with a player who wants something different from you. Do you not see how this is silly? 

Lots of people are giving the opposite feedback from you -- they appreciate the change and think 6m is balanced since it is now a passive and doesn't take up a mod slot. Just because you disagree doesn't make him wrong, and yes, player feedback is important, but yours is not the only feedback. Don't just assume the majority agrees with you because a few whiners are loud. 

Most players appreciate this change and likely find it quite balanced. 

The people that appreciate the nerf are definitely the minority here. If DE would create a poll, it would prove it. But you can easily look around the forums or in the two update threads and see the majority of players don't want this.

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

It's an 87% reduction in effectiveness.

87%.

And sure, have this pittance of a vaccuum as a passive - then let Carrier retain a Vaccum Mod, adjust it for +6M, it's the same as before - everyone is happy.

 

But saying that such a huge nerf, requiring 8-10 times more travel to collect loot and pointlessly slowing the game down is good and balanced is just silly.

I think the real silliness here are all the people super complaining because it got nerfed. You wanna ask for a slight increase or even a moderate one? Sure. But to just yell at DE "change it back I'm angry" (not necessarily paraphrasing you here, but the general tone of the thread) when it is now a passive, does look pretty silly and counter-productive to me. 

Do you really expect them to change it back all the way to 12m when it is now a passive? I certainly don't. I also know that in general they want players to be more active, and less passive, so I think it is a little silly to expect them (knowing DE as we all do) to make utility of that kind any easier for us. 

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think the real silliness here are all the people super complaining because it got nerfed. You wanna ask for a slight increase or even a moderate one? Sure. But to just yell at DE "change it back I'm angry" (not necessarily paraphrasing you here, but the general tone of the thread) when it is now a passive, does look pretty silly and counter-productive to me. 

Do you really expect them to change it back all the way to 12m when it is now a passive? I certainly don't. I also know that in general they want players to be more active, and less passive, so I think it is a little silly to expect them (knowing DE as we all do) to make utility of that kind any easier for us. 

Dropping it to 10M is still a 40% reduction in effectiveness, and that would have been more than enough.

A basically 90% nerf is massive overkill.

That 80% of people used it should REALLY say something about how much it improved the quality of life in the game.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, War-Zone said:

The people that appreciate the nerf are definitely the minority here. If DE would create a poll, it would prove it. But you can easily look around the forums or in the two update threads and see the majority of players don't want this.

Says who? The forums are a tiny percentage of players, if you are trying to go by that. An in game poll? They don't do that... who knows how that would go? I mean, how would it be phrased? Most people don't know what's good for them and would always be against any nerf no matter how good it would be for their own enjoyment of the game long term when it comes to balance. Devs can't make their decisions based on the capricious whims of gamers, no game would ever last that way. 

[SnuggleBuckets]

11 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Yup, the game is for the players, and you are just one of them. It is amazing how ridiculous your post looks. You are sitting here saying that "they should do what the players want" while arguing with a player who wants something different from you. Do you not see how this is silly? 

Lots of people are giving the opposite feedback from you -- they appreciate the change and think 6m is balanced since it is now a passive and doesn't take up a mod slot. Just because you disagree doesn't make him wrong, and yes, player feedback is important, but yours is not the only feedback. Don't just assume the majority agrees with you because a few whiners are loud. 

Most players appreciate this change and likely find it quite balanced. 

Anyone want to make a honest poll to challenge this bold assertion? Personally I suspect you are wrong, that most people are not happy with the change.

[Babellon]

People keep refering to themselves as "the majority of players"...We are not the MAJORITY people..

can we please have a rational conversation with rational people, with the actual Developers? Can we get the educated playerbase to speak with the educated people running this game and get the petulant sideline argumentative demanding persons to please go sit down and learn to communicate in an effective manner. I know its hard, but please, can we?

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, SnuggleBuckets said:

Anyone want to make a honest poll to challenge this bold assertion? Personally I suspect you are wrong, that most people are not happy with the change.

There would be no honest poll, unless you could do something in game that forces every active player to vote... even then it would be very unscientific. The forums are a tiny percentage of players, we are a fart in the wind. 

[SnuggleBuckets]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

There would be no honest poll, unless you could do something in game that forces every active player to vote... even then it would be very unscientific. The forums are a tiny percentage of players, we are a fart in the wind. 

Great response to weasel your way out of having your claim tested.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

Dropping it to 10M is still a 40% reduction in effectiveness, and that would have been more than enough.

A basically 90% nerf is massive overkill.

That 80% of people used it should REALLY say something about how much it improved the quality of life in the game.

I appreciate your frustration, you have been reasonable in your feedback unlike many in this thread. 

But, I also feel like you are kind of massaging the numbers with percentages a bit to make it sound like a bigger change than it is. Is it a significant, noticeable difference? Yes. Was it possibly too far? Yes. But when you use percentages with already small starting numbers, it can make changes look more drastic than they are. 

In more simplistic terms, how many more bullet jumps, steps(while sprinting) etc, are you moving than you moved before, to pickup loot? That is what I am curious about. The percentages tell little with such small numbers, what I think it would be better to quantify, if we want to properly explain the problem to the devs, is how much further are you having to move to pickup loot? 

What, in easily quantifiable terms is the difference now than before? I have noticed a significant difference, but I haven't done any kind of measuring of that kind yet. 

[War-Zone]

14 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Says who? The forums are a tiny percentage of players, if you are trying to go by that. An in game poll? They don't do that... who knows how that would go? I mean, how would it be phrased? Most people don't know what's good for them and would always be against any nerf no matter how good it would be for their own enjoyment of the game long term when it comes to balance. Devs can't make their decisions based on the capricious whims of gamers, no game would ever last that way. 

They have used polls many times in the past, so you're saying that it wouldn't work all of a sudden now? why?
Most people don't know what's good for them? really? It comes down to what someone likes or dislikes and be sure that people know the difference here.
No one knows why DE made this choice, not until they address it. lol, capricious whims... 80% of players were just fine with vacuum and they want it back... that's not a tiny percentage as you claim.

Edited October 6, 2016 by War-Zone

[-RIPD-Slizzer187]

its not only a nerf to vacuum, sadly

nekros despoil hurts a lot more

u need to move away from your group who you are buffing to collect energy- to share energy- to multiply energy

loot falls away from runways u maybe fall from the map get and spawn without activated powers(trying to get 25 energy-->losing much more to reactivate the powers and maybe start at the lowest power grade like equinox 4 or 3- - stuck because camera ankle and jump destination let u collide-simply running out of time/lifesupport cause u wanted the gold mod and get stuck....

the idea itself isnt that bad!!

but like someone said,if u add it-- then to all companions or kubrows will extinct 

greetings from GER 

pls think about it

P.S :Don´t and I really MEAN DON´t MESS UP THESE DAY OF THE DEAD!!!!!

lovely wishes -Slizzer187-

http://imgur.com/a/Tt3zP

 

[Raven_Face]

There's a logical fallacy called 'Ad Populum', or Appeal To Popularity / Right By Numbers.

Using the number of people to prove a point in an attempt to force its legitimacy is always dubious. Study up on that please.

And do not think that polls are accurate representations. They can be jacked, and they can be just as biased. Nothing can please everyone. Assuming that the 'majority' should always be pleased is nothing but tyranny by numbers. Players are not the creators of the game, and this is not a constructive course of the debate.

[Tesseract7777]

6 minutes ago, War-Zone said:

They have used polls many times in the past, so you're saying that it wouldn't work all of a sudden now? why?
Most people don't know what's good for them? really? It comes down to what someone likes or dislikes and be sure that people know the difference here.
None of know why DE made this choice, not until they address it. lol, capricious whims... 80% of players were just fine with vacuum and they want it back... that's not a tiny percentage as you claim.

Since when does DE poll players in game? Point to one time. They poll the forums, that is a tiny percentage of the player-base. Trying to say any of us know what the majority of the player-base wants is a bit unrealistic. We don't have that information. We can only speculate based on our own experiences. Even if we could scientifically collect all forum data, that's at best 1% of active players. 

And yes, they don't know what's good for a game long term. Most gamers aren't programmers. They know what they want in the short term, they want to feel powerful, it is a basic fantasy. But if they are too powerful and it is too easy, they get bored and stop playing. Trying to balance this is a battle developers have been fighting since forever in any game. Most gamers don't know what they want. They know what they think they want, but what most of them think they want will get them bored and burnt out at historic speed. 

Liking/disliking a change does not mean that person understands what would actually make that game the best for their enjoyment overall, long term. You could make the argument a majority of Trinity users were angry about the nerfs, but 99% damage reduction anytime you wanted for the whole squad was absolutely terrible balance for any game and needed to be done away with. You can't make decisions based on what the majority says they want on the surface... gamers will move on to other games over time, even as the game continues. For the developers, it is their baby, and it is very serious to them. They are not going to make changes based on the capricious whims of gamers, who think they are a bigger majority than they actually are. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[DarkOvion]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I appreciate your frustration, you have been reasonable in your feedback unlike many in this thread. 

But, I also feel like you are kind of massaging the numbers with percentages a bit to make it sound like a bigger change than it is. Is it a significant, noticeable difference? Yes. Was it possibly too far? Yes. But when you use percentages with already small starting numbers, it can make changes look more drastic than they are. 

In more simplistic terms, how many more bullet jumps, steps(while sprinting) etc, are you moving than you moved before, to pickup loot? That is what I am curious about. The percentages tell little with such small numbers, what I think it would be better to quantify, if we want to properly explain the problem to the devs, is how much further are you having to move to pickup loot? 

What, in easily quantifiable terms is the difference now than before? I have noticed a significant difference, but I haven't done any kind of measuring of that kind yet. 

It's not that small a number though at the end of the day.

We've gone from a 12 Meter Sphere (7238.23 units) to a 6 Meter Sphere (904.78 units). That's the reduction of 87.5% effectiveness.

As per this sphere:

 

Because of this, whereas before you would have to go down a hallway the once, usually while completing your objectives or a minor detour / pass, it will now require 2-4 passes of a hallway.

A room that required 1-4 bullet jumps around and the ability to jump high, will have to make 8-20+ jumps to cover the same area up and down.

If things get stuck in hard to get palces, spawn inside the wall, etc, 6M will also not likely be enough to account for that, meaning you lose that glitched out item whereas before, Vacuum could get it for you.

 

At the end of the day, this reduction requires you to backtrack a significant amount, it disrupts the flow of play, requiring you to specifically dedicate additional time in a mission to going back on yourself to collect that loot.

In turn, the means you have some choices:

Play the game, but take easily between 10% to 50% the loot home you would have before with a Carrier.

Loot, meaning you will take more time per mission, resulting in less games played per session (with much of that time spent walking / jumping around empty areas)

Buy the items you want to build.

[Trickster-_-]

What the hell...

I bought the 'Gazal complete bundle' for 225 platinum..

I had 1150 platinum.. and it should have been down to 925 platinum after my purchase .. but its showing 897 platinum .. 

please fix this NOW please !!

[Raven_Face]

5 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

It's not that small a number though at the end of the day.

We've gone from a 12 Meter Sphere (7238.23 units) to a 6 Meter Sphere (904.78 units). That's the reduction of 87.5% effectiveness.

As per this sphere:

 

Because of this, whereas before you would have to go down a hallway the once, usually while completing your objectives or a minor detour / pass, it will now require 2-4 passes of a hallway.

A room that required 1-4 bullet jumps around and the ability to jump high, will have to make 8-20+ jumps to cover the same area up and down.

If things get stuck in hard to get palces, spawn inside the wall, etc, 6M will also not likely be enough to account for that, meaning you lose that glitched out item whereas before, Vacuum could get it for you.

 

At the end of the day, this reduction requires you to backtrack a significant amount, it disrupts the flow of play, requiring you to specifically dedicate additional time in a mission to going back on yourself to collect that loot.

In turn, the means you have some choices:

Play the game, but take easily between 10% to 50% the loot home you would have before with a Carrier.

Loot, meaning you will take more time per mission, resulting in less games played per session (with much of that time spent walking / jumping around empty areas)

Buy the items you want to build.

 

 

Is this game so unenjoyable to you that you'd rather missions get cleared faster in your personal stance of 'loot picking', while ignoring the blatant fact that 'fast fooding' any game makes it die faster? What are you in such a hurry for?

[0meg4x]

Nah Nah Nah, The NumbaOne reason people prefered Carrier above any other Sentinel is the pickup range, simple as that. 

Another reason is other Sentinels being...

Ordis: Very bad right now...

...Horrible! They are Trash!... Sorry.

Hope they get reworked soon.

 

Carrier was prefered even above Kubrows and Kavats because Carrier made it so much easier for Energy and Ammo pickup, even more when using Ammo Mutation that it wasn't worth it. These are the reasons why Carrier was everyone's best.

 

I've read quite a lot of posts and... Man, this people must be trolling... This might sound rude, Sorry but it is what it is, Stop being "asnos" and stop calling people lazy because it is NOT about being lazy or wanting to be able to pick items all over the map at once, OR wanting to rush the Gosh Dearest Darnit Mission! Rushing a mission means 0 loot...

Hell! What do you care if I loot or not anyways? Thank Jesus this is not a competitive game.

 

The thing we are not Okay with is: It got nerfed, and it was working fine. Is it so hard to understand?

 

What's that? So you are telling me DE reduced the range because now it is passive and not a mod? I would rather have a mod cuz my sentinels have 1-4 empty slots.

Oh? Is it because you can have Vacuum on anything? Still, it is like an unranked Vacuum mod and for my money I can tell'ya nobody ran around with no unranked Vacuum, Oh Heeell No! xD

Deep inside I feel like #BringCarrierBack before having an unranked Vacuum mod on anything and even more when I know that those "anything" are kinda useless xD. But that's probably temporal, they are gonna tweak things and all that good stuff soon.

 

Remember: We are here to give our opinions about these changes not to "Picarle la cresta a los demás".

Chill and Peace!

Edited October 6, 2016 by 0meg4x
Clarify & This game's winner is... Kirby!

[DarkOvion]

Just now, Raven_Face said:

 

 

Is this game so unenjoyable to you that you'd rather missions get cleared faster in your personal stance of 'loot picking', while ignoring the blatant fact that 'fast fooding' any game makes it die faster? What are you in such a hurry for?

Missing the point entirely.

I'm not talking about 'rushing the missions'.

I'm talking about doing the missions.

Then once that's done, having to go back over yourself, or take additional time, specifically for loot.

Especially when for 3+ years, you've been able to collect loot as you went with a Carrier.

The people that nascar their way through and rush it generally don't stop long enough, or kill a great deal enough for it to affect them at all.

But with around 2,000 hours in the game, maybe I just want to play, rather than further reduce the number of missions I can actually play in a night if I want to get the loot as well as just complete the mission.

If we're generous and say looting now takes 25% longer to do, that's 20% less overall games I can play, or things I can do.

If it takes 50% longer to loot than before, that's 33% less overall games I get to play than I was.

And if it takes double the time, that's half the games I could play before.

That, or I give up on looting, but then I have to do a significant amount of specific tedious farming instead of just playing the game, and topping up here and there when stuffs released, which is again, less time I can actually play the game.

[SnuggleBuckets]

There's a worrying subsector in this community that revels in the unhappiness of their fellow players, gleefully smirking whenever a change occurs that doesn't affect them negatively but does rub others the wrong way. What does it say about these individuals that they extract so much enjoyment from the suffering of others?
The low opinion some here seem to have of everyone else, thinking of others as entitled, lazy, almost parasitic - scary to see them rejoicing whenever a patch blunders.

Edited October 6, 2016 by SnuggleBuckets

[War-Zone]

10 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Since when does DE poll players in game? Point to one time. They poll the forums, that is a tiny percentage of the player-base. Trying to say any of us know what the majority of the player-base wants is a bit unrealistic. We don't have that information. We can only speculate based on our own experiences. Even if we could scientifically collect all forum data, that's at best 1% of active players. 

And yes, they don't know what's good for a game long term. Most gamers aren't programmers. They know what they want in the short term, they want to feel powerful, it is a basic fantasy. But if they are too powerful and it is too easy, they get bored and stop playing. Trying to balance this is a battle developers have been fighting since forever in any game. Most gamers don't know what they want. They know what they think they want, but what most of them think they want will get them bored and burnt out at historic speed. 

Liking/disliking a change does not mean that person understands what would actually make that game the best for their enjoyment overall, long term. You could make the argument a majority of Trinity users were angry about the nerfs, but 99% damage reduction anytime you wanted for the whole squad was absolutely terrible balance for any game and needed to be done away with. You can't make decisions based on what the majority says they want on the surface... gamers will move on to other games over time, even as the game continues. For the developers, it is their baby, and it is very serious to them. They are not going to make changes based on the capricious whims of gamers, who think they are a bigger majority than they actually are. 

You are the only one who mentioned an in game poll, so you are arguing with yourself there. DE have had many polls in the forums that they have based decisions on, just not in this case.

No, gamers aren't programmers but it doesn't take a programmer in order to know what you like about a game and what keeps you there. And there are MANY reasons why players quit games not just the small balance issue you referred to. In just about every MMO I've played most quit as a result of to many nerfs not because their character was too powerful.

The vacuum mod was just fine for a long time. The players who used it, liked it. Players weren't complaining that there was a problem with it. They just wanted it on other pets... not that difficult. Not game breaking. It would've been a nice QoL change. But making it useless seems spiteful. To say it's a capricious whim to 80% of the player base is obviously ridiculous. 

And yeah they can make decisions based on what the majority of players have to say because without the player base they won't have a game. Quite a few game companies have gone down as a result of what they are doing now. Ignoring/spiting the players is just a bad idea in general.

[-Specktra-]

Im fine with a 25% more range on vacuum pick up range