The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[(PSN)haffmo]

Good thing pc is testing ground 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Why didn't they give all companions a passive 6m and leave carrier with Vacuum at 12m?

[TheGuyver]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Are there any other players who don't care about vacuum?

Vacuum nerf is a nerf but some people couldn't care less as we just collect the salt as it rains down.

I don't really care personally, I just wanted sentinel buffs and I'm super disappointed we didn't get them. On top of carrier's new ability and the fact that carrier prime still has the most EHP of all the sentinels, it's still the best one to use though. In the end, I don't feel anything will change in regards to that.

[Aerensiniac]

4 hours ago, Chipputer said:

This is the main issue.

People are so quick to complain about the range changes instead of taking the time to see why those of us who don't regularly use Carrier made the choice not to by experimenting with other sentinels. It's insanity.

The notion to call people with different preferences than yours insane... is pretty damn insane in itself.
Carrier was used by 89% for one simple reason: Efficiency.

You go off on some arbitrary other factor like different play style, some sort of combo with a sentinel ability or simply warframe fashion.
What if i told you that they are all valid reasons FOR YOU but not for 89% of the player base?

What if i told you that the statistics show the simple fact that super mario bro's "touch to collect" looting system in a game where you do 40m+ acrobatic jumps and can pass half the map without actually touching the ground IS A FRIKIN DESIGN FLAW?

Im sick and tired of you people white knighting DE by claiming what is essentially the argument that you can still loot, even without carrier or vacuum.

Yes.

Yes you can.

And as 89% of the playerbased has said it: It being possible does not mean that its good, convenient, makes sense or is fun.

[notlamprey]

Sign me up for a vacuum innate to all warframes at the previous precept radius, with the option to to turn it off.

 

[--RV--LadySpiderwick]

37 minutes ago, KiloFoxx said:

I actually have actively opposed Vacuum as a whole pretty much from the start. I find it makes players lazy and over-reliant on the feature, so that when it's no longer there for them to use as a crutch, they can't handle it and lose out on much of the game as a result. unfortunately, this is also true with Rhino's Iron Skin and WAS True with Valk's Hysteria. their early acquisition stages meant that players could cheese past the starmap and missions with them before ever actually gaining the skills they needed to hold up later on >.< Carrier and Vacuum did the same thing, only with Pickups rather than skill

There are some fast paced scenarios where scavenging for items is taking longer to complete a mission than help. 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

19 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

And that is any different how? They are testing sentinels right now, and will move on to other companions later. Most players use companions, by a huge margin.

carrier was the most used companion in the game. 89% most used (by dev stream 80 statistics reveal)

[SenorClipClop]

48 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Are there any other players who don't care about vacuum?

I'm sure there are thousands of Tenno who don't read patch notes, aren't on the forums and haven't even noticed the change. There are a lot of people who go and play a game without trying to gather or share information, so I guess we can call them silent.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

carrier was the most used companion in the game. 89% most used (by dev stream 80 statistics reveal)

again, incorrect. See above post there most used is 78% Also that is only for sentinels, and doesn't contain any info regarding the usage of Companions like Kubrows and Kavats.

[Aerensiniac]

12 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Vacuum wasn't nerfed.  It was added to every other sentinel at a smaller radius.

I think i died a bit on the inside....

Cause you know... reducing range is not a nerf.... i guess in your world thats a buff. How about buffing your account with a deletion?

[BulletsforTeeth]

16 minutes ago, Aerensiniac said:

*snippity snippity, much snippiness*

Im sick and tired of you people white knighting DE by claiming what is essentially the argument that you can still loot, even without carrier or vacuum.

Yes.

Yes you can.

And as 89% of the playerbased has said it: It being possible does not mean that its good, convenient, makes sense or is fun.

It's not white knighting. We simply don't agree that this is a horrible choice. I don't. Sure, the range could use some adjusting, but it shouldn't be quite the same range as before. There has to be some kind of tradeoff for it being innate and universal to sentinals. Maybe 8-9 meters, give or take .5

 

DE is not trying to throw a big middle finger to the playerbase. As much as it's easy to blame them and demonise there actions, they really are just trying to balance the game and keep it that way. I'm not saying DE is perfect, very few of 'us' are. Far from it. But the simple matter is, losing your S#&amp;&#036; and going all "YOU WHITE KNIGHTERS NEED TO SHUT UP AND REALISE DE IS INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING THIS GAME" (as an example, not targeting anyone in specific) solves absolutely nothing. Calmly discussing the change and why the math should be adjusted, maybe in addition to adding it to pets is more likely to achieve results. It's not so much about being angry as it is about volume and consistancy. I don't blame DE for balancing the changes, and I also don't blame them for 'overbalancing' the changes a bit. With the amount of words flying about this change, the numbers will probably be adjusted. Patience, tenno.

I must admit, this is probably the first, maybe second time agreeing with @Troll_Logic, so I'm a little out of my comfort zone lol. Normally I'd be the first to jump at a change like this, but even then... Not angrily. It's not worthwhile getting so furious over this sort of thing. Folks need to take a really big chill pill and relax in the latest forumite crusade. Not saying they're all wrong, but there are other viewpoints. It's important to realise this.

Edited October 6, 2016 by BulletsforTeeth

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

again, incorrect. See above post there most used is 78% Also that is only for sentinels, and doesn't contain any info regarding the usage of Companions like Kubrows and Kavats.

That's not true. People use sentinels in missions more often than anything else and it's safe to say that they tend to use the carrier absolute most of the time. You see Kubrows and Kavats once in five missions at most. They're simply not needed for the starchart (you can go into any starchart mission with a single melee really, but that's a whole another issue).

[SenorClipClop]

46 minutes ago, Beggining said:

As the title says, this topic will be used to determine the preferred range the Vacuum should be in. Could be the range we have after Vacuum Within (6m), could be the default max Vacuum range (12m), could be somewhere in between.

In my time lurking on the countless amount of Vacuum complaint threads, somewhere around 8m to 10m seems optimal. Of course, as I rarely use the Carrier before, I wouldn't be able to partake much in this discussion.

Your thoughts on what range should the Vacuum be?

If we're talking about optimal item collection and considering that collecting drops is never ever a negative thing in Warframe, technically the optimal range of an item vacuum is infinity. All items, forever, no matter far away are drawn in is the optimal thing. But is it good for this game?

I think the real question is: how much work should we have to do to collect our items? How much attention should we be paying to what's dropping?

[BloodfireSouls]

STOP!  Before you groan, and go: "Oh not another person here to whine about the vacuum nerf!"  This isn't what that's about.  And In my honest opinion, it's not a nerf.

Hello again Warframe forums!  It's been a while since I posted here, but I havn't been able to find much content on youtube yet about our newest update: The Vacuum Within, which is understandable since it's quite new (Not even 24 hrs old yet,) so I took to the forums for the first time in a while, and saw nothing but salt.  There was salt everywhere.  Salt on the walls, salt in people's pants, some people were even secreting salt from the pores in their skin.  It was not pleasant.  So, as I quite liked the update, I'm here to provide positive feedback on it to maybe change some people's minds about the update, or at least show them how to think positively about what was done, so that we can stop getting caught up in the present and look towards the future.  (I'll be talking about the vacuum changes briefly at the end, as I know there's plenty of posts about that already, nobody needs another, but I'd like to at least touch on it, as I'm providing feedback on the update as a whole.)

Before I begin, I just want to say, that when I praise something, I am not meaning that it is the be-all end-all of anything.  Just because something is regarded as good, does not make it god-tier, the same way that being average doesn't mean its trash.

So first off, Djinn.  Djinn got an incredible skin, and as I've heard a few people say already, it clearly shows what sentinel is DE's favorite.  This skin is amazing.  I love the design, Djinn got the umbra treatment before excalibur with that sick looking scarf.  X'D  And lets not forget the metalic bits that I can recolor to make a sentinel that's not even primed look like it is primed.  (Yes, I'm the kind of person who will color ANY metalic bit gold.  I know it's overused, but I'm obsessed with it, leave me alone.)  This is much older news, but when I actually started using Djinn with this skin, I thought he was pretty good!  I'd passed over him many times before this update because I'd not heard good things about him, but his fatal attraction got some nice buffs a while back, so I didn't think he was that bad.  I'll definitely be using him a lot more now.  Fantastic skin, a decent precept, what's not to love?

Next up, the Gazal Armor set.  Again, fantastic design.  I'm personally not a huge fan of it, but I will not lie, the design is great.  It's got metallic bits, so I'm happy.  I havn't really taken much of a look at it besides trying it on once to see what it looked like, but overall, a very nice armor set.  Matches the Djinn skin really well, too.  If it didn't I'd be upset considering they share the "Gazal" name.

Thirdly, we have the Gazal Machette.  This is where I saw about 25% of the salt happening. (Maybe even less, but regardless it was there.)  Now, let me just mention that yes, the Gazal Machette is very average.  It's best in it's class, but machettes are not very good with it's average stance (I refuse to say it's the worst stance in the game because to be honest, I dislike BOTH the dual sword stances with a burning passion.) and rather low damage compared to the ridiculously powerful weapons we've been getting these days.  Galatine prime, Nikana Prime, Fragor prime, War, I'm lookin at all of you.  But many seem to have failed to see the potential that I see in this machette.  Let me explain.

So a youtuber I watch named H3dsh0t typically doesn't like melee weapons.  He says they're mostly uninteresting because they are all essentially the same.  And I agree.  Most melee weapons we get are completely boring because they don't do anything that stands out from other melee weapons.  The syndicate melees were a prime example of good melees.  They all do something unique, and while some of those unique effects are admittedly better than others, it draws people to those weapons simply because of they're interesting mechanics.  Which is exactly why I like the Gazal Machette.  What makes it special is it's synergy with Djinn.  When you kill an enemy with the Gazal machette, it powers up Djinn's next Fatal Attraction.  In turn, once Djinn Uses Fatal Attraction, it applies a corrosive damage buff to the Gazal Machette that lasts 10 seconds, which increases in duration the more enemies Djinn kills with Fatal Attraction.  (Seems to cap at 40 seconds, but I'd have to test it some more to fully confirm.  I also don't know if Djinn HAS to kill an enemy to apply the buff, or if it applies once the cast is finished regardless of if it killed an enemy or not.)

So I don't think most people really realize what this means.  With the buff, this means that the Gazal machette is (I'm almost 100% sure on this) the ONLY weapon in the game that can have 3 combination elements on it at a single time.  Granted, the corrosive damage will not be there all the time, but I've seen it happen enough to be useful.  Corrosive, Radiation, and Viral, all on the same weapon.  And to top it all off, this weapon has a 25% status chance, which is quite good.  And while this may not be the best weapon for status procs, as IPS weapons will have those extra physical procs added in, I will say again.  This is the ONLY weapon that can have 3 combination elements on it and once.  So you can proc corrosive, Radiation, and Viral, all on the same enemy.  No other weapon can do that.

But if you don't like the status path, I would still say this weapon is berserker Viable, as well.  10% isn't normally the kind of crit chance you'd want to aim for in a berserker build, but I've used berserker on my normal galatine, which also has 10% crit chance, and, to note, a slower attack speed than the Gazal machette.  I thought it worked out just fine on the galatine, why wouldn't it work for the Gazal machette?

Overall I'd say the Gazal Machette is a good weapon to pick up and keep in the back of your arsenal for that rainy day that they decide to buff machettes. An incredible design that matches the Djinn skin, and the new armor, as well as having a lot of untapped potential that could very easily be unleashed with: 1. A new Machette stance that is better than sundering weave.  2. A buff for machettes in general.  I'm telling you, keep this weapon, It could become a very good weapon in the future.  And if you plan on using Djinn, why not use it now?  It's not a horrible weapon, and its more than enough to play your everyday missions.  (Except for the sorties.  Probably don't take it to Sorties.  Haha.)

Finally, I want to briefly touch upon the vacuum changes.  I see this change in a good light.  The whole point of this change was to give diversity back to companion/sentinel choice.  For the first time in a long time, I actually didn't feel A massive incentive to use carrier over anything else.  I think this was a much needed change, and the way I like to look at it is that we lost a sentinel that was similar to "Press 4 to win" frames, and gained a whole army of new machines to bring into combat with us.

 

As a final note, I'd just like to say that I think this update was fantastic, and really do think the game is headed for a bright future with the way things have been going recently.  Unique weapons and diversity, that's the way to go.

That's it from me.  I'm terribly sorry for the giant wall of text, I just have a lot on my mind sometimes, but I hope I could change some people's minds about this update, and, as always, good luck out there farming for whatever you're after!

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

 

[NeithanDiniem]

5 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's not true. People use sentinels in missions more often than anything else and it's safe to say that they tend to use the carrier absolute most of the time. You see Kubrows and Kavats once in five missions at most. They're simply not needed for the starchart (you can go into any starchart mission with a single melee really, but that's a whole another issue).

That chart I posted was the exact info given by DE regarding total sentinel usage in the past month+ prior to the update. That chart does not include Kavat or Kubrow usage. If it did, total usage for Carrier or Carrier Prime would decrease further because you now have more variables eating up percentages of the chart. Your personal in-game experience of who you are encountering in no way is plausible for use on what the actual numbers are. Your numbers for 89% are flat out wrong. That is what I was replying to being not true.

Edited October 6, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[Evanescent]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

to everyone saying "make it a Warframe passive", we would have to find a new passive For Mag, since you're basically giving an improved version of her passive to every frame.

see, this guy is prepared. I never run with any less than a hundred health and energy pizzas (large team ones, I'm not THAT selfish), so it doesn't bother me that much. either way though, I can't wait to see how dividing Vacuum into 3 smaller Vacuums "solves" our problems.

3 smaller vacuums?

What do you mean by that?

[Chipputer]

18 minutes ago, Aerensiniac said:

Im sick and tired of you people white knighting DE

It sure is a good thing that disagreeing with someone has become white knighting on these forums.

Grow up. Maybe while you're at it experience a new sentinel.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

decrease further

Further where? It's still gonna be over 70%. People don't use Kavats and Kubrows. DE didn't post about those cause they're not used at all - half a % or smth like that (I'm exaggerating, but you got the idea - it's still gonna be over 70% for the carrier)

[MessengeroDeath]

I agree 100% if this is the only solution DE can come up with they should just change it back to the way it was.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

16 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Do tell me where it is 89% when I have this pie chart, right here, posted by DERebecca when she locked a thread commenting they increased the radius from 5 to 6m in testing that shows that usage of carrier, in any form, in the most recent time in Warframe, is only 78%. When I stated 80% that was based off of the dev's original comment during streams regarding the usage amount with a minimal slice of the playerbase.

Chart

Thread

Your figures are wrong. also, the number of players that go to a forums are in a larger majority the ones that only go there to complain. The people that are fine with the update are the ones that don't bother complaining about it and instead play the game.That is why you typically see fewer people coming in to these kinds of post-update complaint threads to support the change compared to complain about it

that 78% is as you stated in recent time, the previous number said by DE was 89% on stream as said by someone else, but regardless, is either side of 80% not a landslide?

in regards to the forum, some players express things to others to take to the forums, I get feedback all day from players who dont read the forum. I run a clan n alliance, many of whom know I am active on the forum n look to me for both updates on issues and to give me opinions to take to the forums. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a whole bunch of players who dont come here aren't happy with the direction of things. I also know that many players dont think its worth their time to voice their opinions because in their opinion DE wont listen anyway. Theres a lot of players leaving and i doubt most of them leave exit notes here.

[BulletsforTeeth]

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It sure is a good thing that disagreeing with someone has become white knighting on these forums.

Grow up. Maybe while you're at it experience a new sentinel.

TBH I'm just sitting here with popcorn and a bladderbuster soda reading all the salt. It's almost funny how angry some folks get. Most aren't so bad, but every once in a while you stumble upon a gold mine and get a good laugh. But objectivity is a horrible thing, isn't it?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

1)  The heaviest concentration of pickups will be around the player.

2)  The player is not static.  So the 5m sphere around the player really isn't a 5m sphere.  Because the player is moving, it's really a cylinder that extends through that 13m sphere.

3)  So that leaves the top of the sphere that really isn't used unless it's on another floor that the tenno hasn't already been.

4)  Along with the bottom of the sphere that again isn't used unless it's on another floor that the tenno hasn't already visited.

5)  Along with the two farthest sides which is a bit of a nerf.  But again, the greatest concentration of drops will follow the path of the tenno.

So while technically the sphere is much smaller, functionally and practically it isn't anywhere as small as it seems.

1) That's not true.

2) 5m sphere is 5m sphere wherever you put it. And if you remember that loot only drops on the floor and take parcour into consideration, it's gonna be even less than 5m on the ground.

3) top is never used ya.

4) But this is not true. Moving around and jumping makes every meter on the lower half of the vacuum crutial. You can't have enough of it. We need 12m and we need it to work fast.

5) Again not true. On any map with any significant open space - not true. The second you stop using melee weapons to kill everything your statement loses any valid.
 

 

[CrazyFisher]

The Nerf Within - 6 meters is too little.

[Aerensiniac]

Just now, BulletsforTeeth said:

It's not white knighting. We simply don't agree that this is a horrible choice. I don't. Sure, the range could use some adjusting, but it shouldn't be quite the same range as before. There has to be some kind of tradeoff for it being innate and universal to sentinals. Maybe 8-9 meters, give or take .5

Okay, seriously: Go on. Cause this reasoning is not finished, its half done. There needs to be some kind of tradeoff... WHY?

Because otherwise a design flaw would be corrected and for some bogous reason we cant have that? It cannot happen?
What kind of balance are you referring to in the first place that gets eroded by a universal vacuum? What does this hurt so badly that it needs a tradeoff?
 

Just now, BulletsforTeeth said:

DE is not trying to throw a big middle finger to the playerbase. As much as it's easy to blame them and demonise there actions, they really are just trying to balance the game and keep it that way. I'm not saying DE is perfect, very few of 'us' are. Far from it. But the simple matter is, losing your S#&amp;&#036; and going all "YOU WHITE KNIGHTERS NEED TO SHUT UP AND REALISE DE IS INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING THIS GAME" (as an example, not targeting anyone in specific) solves absolutely nothing. Calmly discussing the change and why the math should be adjusted, maybe in addition to adding it to pets is more likely to achieve results. It's not so much about being angry as it is about volume and consistancy. I don't blame DE for balancing the changes, and I also don't blame them for 'overbalancing' the changes a bit.

 

And here is the catch, because if DE is not trying to throw a big middle finger to the playerbase, then all that is happening is even more scarier, simply because it means they have no idea what they are doing.

Literally all the larger youtube channels WHICH THEY ARE PARTNERED WITH BTW have had a take on the issue of vacuum and literally all of them came up with the same conclusion: Touch to take looting system in a game about aerial acrobatics is simply a design flaw. 89% of their playerbase thinks the exact same thing.

So now at this point please go on and try to explain me (no sarcasm, do it, im literally curious) why they need to take an adventure like some 2 year old on a steep learning curve to find out what it is that everyone wants. Because im not a developer, im not a coder, im not a designer and i dont own a game company but from the presented data i can see the problem and the solution just fine.

Why is it that DE who developed this game for god knows how many years has all this information presented, is drowning in suggestions which all point in one direction, STILL needs to embark on a journey like some mentally handicapped 2 year old with a learning curve as steep as cow's face to find out what it might be that everyone wants... just what could be the solution to this problem....?

Cause really. Correct me if im wrong. Please do it.

But at this point you can have 2 picks: Its either the middlefinger towards the playerbase, or complete and utter incompetence.