The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Tsukinoki]

I think I figured out DEs reasoning behind nerfing it:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 minute ago, _Vortus_ said:

pets never had it in the first place, so they lost nothing.

each sentinel gained the vacuum ability, and it needed spelled out individually rather than shortened to point out our overall gain from these changes

even the inside of a sphere, from the center is measured by its radius.   

saltiness over other sentinels, or companions in general needing reworks has nothing to do with the current vacuum discussion.   heh, beyond that I totally agree most need some help.

no but what does apply to the vacuum discussion is that with vacuum at 12m alot of people felt less tedium over what to many of them felt was contradictive design, to have to slow down for loot, in a game where parkour is a basic stable of movement, many things are built around speed, and staying moving keeps you alive. And to everybody taking the time to go loot by touch n smell roses, unless you play solo, someone is waiting for u, and if you do play solo, why not stop to look around on your own terms instead of everytime theres items around. At 6m range the tedium is back for alot of people. 12m range hurts no one n nothing, it promotes better distribution in the same way. 6m does hurt the play of many people. Why give it to us universal and make it a bad thing? this isn't power creep, this is no longer a balance issue once its universal. What this is, is simply a QoL change that we're giving up QoL for, which seems to me to be self defeating. Thus I honestly believe DE fully needs the amount of feedback they are getting on the topic to pull their heads out of deep space n actually improve their game instead of making us trade off our time energy and quality of gameplay for their mistakes. Its not like the devs didn't know what the community wanted, go read the megathread sometime. DE blew off the vast majority of community opinion, n like ive said many times a community supported mmo is dead in the water if the majority of players feel like the developers are at odds with what's good for players

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 minutes ago, kuliise said:

I think it would be better to have innate vacuum tied to the Warframe, mostly because sentinels die very easily. Every time my Carrier has died in a mission, I then have to purposely die just to revive him. I know many other people who do this too, simply because Carrier's original vacuum was that good a QoF function. So having it tied to Warframe would solve that issue, and would also allow companions like kavats and kubrows to be used more often as well. I know I've wanted to use kubrows and kavats for a long time, but the annoyance of not having vacuum prevented me from doing so. 

My point exactly. Altho allowing all companions to use the mod might be considered an alternative.

P.S.
- Please don't res me! Don't res! Don't RES!
*sadsmile*

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Azrael]

12 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

What? What insult? Now you're just being the webster's definition of edgy.

 

42 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

 Lee will pulverize you if you keep being an idiot

"If you keep being an idiot." Meaning that he's being an idiot, and if he keeps it up Lee will pulverize him, whatever that means. You kinda on-the-sly called him an idiot. But I'm sure you'll say some weak obvious excuse like "I wasn't directing it at the person I was talking to, I was directing it at imaginary people instead," or "I didn't call him an idiot, I only said he was acting like one, which of course is the primary indicator of someone being an idiot." I can't wait.

 

16 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

I haven't been hostile to anyone.

Perhaps not. I meant Lee, actually, who has been flamebaiting me this entire time and refuses to acknowledge that my comments actually made sense, even after I clarified them, and who called me a bozo.

 

17 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

BUT THE CHANGE EVERYONE IS MISSING
YOU CAN PUT SCULPTURES ON THE FLOOR IN YOUR OPERATOR'S ROOM NOW.
THAT'S FLIPPIN AWESOME.

Okay, that is pretty f-in awesome. I genuinely did not know this. I tried earlier and couldn't. That'll make a great place to build my crazy sculptures!

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, RistN said:

Love stupid jokes 

"Suck Within"
 

[Nep_Blanc]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

My point exactly. 

P.S.
- Please don't res me! Don't res! Don't RES!
*sadsmile*

Me having same problem on stream, saying in chat no res pls, Gets ressed -_- and well just afk and die again and so on. taking team mates with it.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[Culaio]

3 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I think I figured out DEs reasoning behind nerfing it:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

So they want us to stop using parkour ? since with changes you have to choose either parkour or loot...

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Personally, I thought vacuum sucked.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

29 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

Well for one, prevent drops from falling out of the map by fixing the boundaries on the tiles. Half the time my issue is that a drop will roll off a ledge or it spawns when an enemy body part clips through a wall pulling the drop with it. I haven't used carrier since the kavat update as the buffs provided by them far outweigh the usefulness of having vacuum.

I remember farming kombas for months for some rare stance only to have it drop in the sorties and fall into textures (Europa) as my friend picked it up with a carrier. Needless to say I was thrilled.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[kuchn]

this is the awful beauty of things

take something simple like changing "carrier" to "sentinel/companion" on mod -- easy and would not make someone feel as if that someone actually did something

take something simple, change its function by nerfing it-- well someone created something, it's a mess, but it is something that justifies not working on TWW since it needed more time to be created :D      best part: fixing it will require even more time! so you can actually say u did 2 things, isn't it great?!

added: to top it all up..if you put some time between the mess and the fix i am sure the community will be like:"awesome, you buffed our vacuum!"

would you thank me for giving you money if i stole it from you 1 week ago?!

TLDR:
make vacuum universal = 1 thing

make vacuum universal and nerfing it = create mess = 1 thing
fixing the mess = 1 thing
1+1=2

2>1 + bonus: made community happy cuz u "gave" them something
overall = win

Edited October 6, 2016 by kuchn

[ComCray]

I don't really care all that much: there's a few scenarios where I will miss the range aspect (auto-melee from behind a couple of crates in infested survival for one) but I'm very much aware I was cheesing the system in these cases.

The outcry however.. Oh My Queens... Blows my mind. And the arguments..? Insane really..

Picking up loot no fun? Really? And where is that magical game where gnomes come bring you the loot? How many games out there let you pick up loot from miles away just by wishing it so? Sorry but I just chalk thatone up to the whole entitled "I want all the things for free and I want them nowww" attitude of a large part of our playerbase.

What I am a bit miffed about is the whole underlying issue: if one sentinel is overused, could they at first not fix the other sentinels? Shade is a frakking joke, hardly ever cloaks me when needed. Wyrm's repell could be much more spectacular, ragdolling enemies all over the map and not just stun them a few meters away. Etc. Etc. It's the lackluster abillities of most of them that keeps me from using them (and yes, I got them all, I'm a pokemon master ffs!).

So, the vacuum nerf would be more bareable if they would have fixed the other sentinels first imho.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

Me having same problem on stream, saying in chat no res pls, Gets ressed -_- and well just afk and die again and so on. taking team mates with it.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

*facetable* 

[Nep_Blanc]

btw if you do basic math vacuum has a basic range of 4.4 meters on a radius not full diameter.

let me explain:

sphere radius is 6 meters, spheres are hard to calculate with so lets make it a circle of 6 meters.
Retract the 2 meters of distance the carrier is of the ground and you got 4 meters.

and hey this is a full Pythagoras triangle that is easy to calculate.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PythagoreanTheorem.html

A²+B²=C²

we know C and B not A

so longest end is the circle radius of 6 meters shortest end is 4 meters, the longest end is the angled side of the triangle so its is side C shortest is B with 4 meters.

ok C² is 36
B² is 16

retract B from C and you get 20
Square root from 20 is 4.4721359549995793928183473374626 around 4.4 to 4.5 meters depending how this is rounded in game.

TBH not a lot of range

you can apply same logic to the pre nerfed looting range and that is a lot more.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Edited October 6, 2016 by TheRoaringLion

[VonDodo]

What about if they turned Tigris prime into a subpar melee claws?

Tigers have claws... so the name would fit better, but i think people who wanted a shotgun wouldn t be happy.

 

Same works with carrier

[Urlan]

16 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

The problem with just giving vacuum back its 12 meter range:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

This is really the most reasonable solution to getting a full strength Vacuum back.
Make it a normal precept that is 10 ranks.  Make it have all the drawbacks of a precept (e.g. only one active at a time so you have to choose if you want it vacuuming most of the time or doing other stuff) and cost a slot, points and endo.
That would balance it out and would allow it to go back to full strength.

I think that is poor logic, Carrier still has a vacuum, it is just weaker. There is no cost that needs to be remedied for functionality that was largely asked to be universal, not weakened to just above unranked. A better comparison of functionality would be taking energy siphon or corrosive projection and removing it but giving a weaker effect by default to warframes. You would have functionality that everyone assumes that you would have but it would never be as good.

Ash and Loki also never ignored the lasers by being invisible, Loki switch teleported through the lasers while Ash could avoid some of them by teleporting to allies or enemies on the other side. In Ivara's case, the warframe got a mod that says, you can ignore most spy missions' challenges - while it is true that this does cost fusion resources and a mod slot, it is only needed for one mission type and that mission type it trivializes in a manner that is more similar to Limbo in rifts before patches than Loki or Ash going invisible.

As the usage charts showed, sentinel use was largely considered warped by the fact that Carrier had the most useful precept. For the best attempt at seeing the correlation of this effect while giving an alternate weaker utility for Carrier, the actual effect that created that effect should have been used. I am specifically saying that yes, the effect is one that is not a mod costed effect, it is play utility enhancer that was previously locked to one company - the data available shows that this is worth doing so in the effort of diversity and improving the overall play experience.

[BAD9eR]

10 hours ago, -Amaterasu- said:

6m is more than enough the way I see it (I'm used to not using carrier though so maby that's just me) they could have just gotten rid of vacuum and said nothing about it if they really wanted to, 6m is the price we pay for having vacuum available to all sentinels at the cost of a whoping 0 mod energy / slots.

Complaining about it at this point would just be entitlement, Carrier's new ability also benefits certain weapon builds and saves you even more slots that may have otherwise been used on mutations

RUBBISH ! entitlement lol @ u  it was perfectly fine @ 12m so they nerf it to increase grind again . its not entitlement to call out a terrible nerf 

[BAD9eR]

5 hours ago, KiloFoxx said:

I actually have actively opposed Vacuum as a whole pretty much from the start. I find it makes players lazy and over-reliant on the feature, so that when it's no longer there for them to use as a crutch, they can't handle it and lose out on much of the game as a result. unfortunately, this is also true with Rhino's Iron Skin and WAS True with Valk's Hysteria. their early acquisition stages meant that players could cheese past the starmap and missions with them before ever actually gaining the skills they needed to hold up later on >.< Carrier and Vacuum did the same thing, only with Pickups rather than skill

oh really ??? what does vacum make us lose out on then , seeing as you seem to know what others all want .

[ComfyOlivia]

6 hours ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Are there any other players who don't care about vacuum?

Vacuum nerf is a nerf but some people couldn't care less as we just collect the salt as it rains down.

The forums and the subreddit are pretty polarizing groups, but they've been super unified on what vacuum should be. Just go see just about any top 10 post on the Subreddit right now. 

[Brian_Paone]

I just have my loot hand-delivered. 

[DoomFruit]

11 hours ago, Stonehenge said:

Aaand now they extend Vacuum to all sentinels, and you are still not happy. 5 meters is not enough. This community becomes more obscene every day.

I never asked for vacuum to be nerfed. If the price of putting it on every sentinel is butchering its range, then the price is too high. If for some reason DE decide that it can't be made universal without butchering its range, then don't make it universal.

[AngryBAsian]

42 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I think I have figured out DEs reasoning at least:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults, further it buffs her prowl speed a bit.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way

TL;DR: Its a good thing it was nerfed because now its a zero cost effect where before it cost something to use and equip.  Since now its free and doesn't even mess with other sentinels precepts or mods or anything else it shouldn't be as powerful as the old 12m one.

Yes it makes perfect sense IF the change was wanted to begin with. But people didnt. 

You set Loli and Ash skill as an example. Sure that does make sense since it wasnt considered the most common or one of the more vital component to the game. But 12m vaccum was. It saved people from being "oh look loot let me wal... Shoot my base!" Apperantly it was to promote movement but sure. People now just simply ignore loots and move along the way. Seems to be its just making it longer to farm.

oh you can adgue that people are being lazy but really. If you actually think ablut it before saying "buddy all you gotta dp is walk a little more" that is EXACTLY the problem. "Walking a little more" increases the farming time by greater amount than you think, and especially when you are in middle of combat you dont want to be looking at the ground thinking "her derr lemme look for loots. Oh woops I died hahaaa" then the sensible way to do is clear out the map of whatever mission you were doing then be that cancer in the squad that goes back and slowly collect resources that might be missed.

Also the thing about "Its all good since we get it all for free", the thing is most people have more than enough mod slot to put in the carrier for 12m vaccum. Really like what are you going to put in there instead of the vaccum?  Spare parts? Self destruct? The issue here is not having that extra mod slot, its the fact that utility of the carrier was significantly reduced.

I personally like the new carrier but just saying

if you are lazy enough you just say wheres my wallet and buy plat. But its people in the middle of cancer-of-the-squad-oh-my-yeesus-i-have-to-collect-everything-and-take-extra-40hrs and wheres-my-walllet-lemme-but-some-plat people that is raging about it which is quite alot

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by AngryBAsian

[BAD9eR]

4 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Now Carrier's name fits and it was long past due.

no ... it wasnt

[eksby]

29 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

My point exactly. Altho allowing all companions to use the mod might be considered an alternative.

P.S.
- Please don't res me! Don't res! Don't RES!
*sadsmile*

 

26 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

Me having same problem on stream, saying in chat no res pls, Gets ressed -_- and well just afk and die again and so on. taking team mates with it.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Haha, definitely had my share of this as well. People always rez anyway. :( I've had a bit more success after I start saying in chat "don't rez, carrier died". 

33 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

Tie it to WF makes design choices a lot easier and a lot less hassle, pickup range tied to mastery rank with a minimum of 10 meters adding up after you reached MR 10 is a great reward for playing longer then usual in the game.

I'm still not a fan of things tied to mastery, but since I'm MR21 that'd be quite nice for me if it did happen. :P

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

17 minutes ago, Stonehenge said:

8 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

if its effectively negating the use of every other sentinel in the game by a massive majority, then yes, it's in need of a balance adjustment, which is exactly what happened. nobody used anything other than carrier, and "let me die so i can get my carrier back" is and has been one of the most commonly said things in games for quite some time. I'm no exception to this, as one only needs look at my profile to see the obscene amounts of use i have with it. a 6 meter range is absolutely fine, as now players cannot stand in one spot aimlessly and accrue mountains of resources, thus easymode. Now, we gotta work for it, which is absolutely fine by me.

Ah man, sometimes i wish i could press the upvote button a thousand times

the need to balance is negated by making it universal, if its universal then what do you balance against? N as ive said before, balancing is for gameplay difficulty, power creep, etc, balancing against QoL is simply reducing the quality unless that convenience disrupts other factors of the game, what part of warframe is negatively affected by universal vacuum at full range? None. Is it a problem that we can scan n collect all that loot? no, we could with carrier n a scanner or carrier n a heliocor. Is it a problem to be invisible and collect loot? No, we could with ivara or loki or any frame with naramon n carrier. So why give up QoL for QoL? Its redundant and stupid n if it gets back the range 9 out of ten people that are pissed about it will switch to saying thank you for listening DE in a heartbeat. How is that not the obvious choice here? Theres was no need to lower the range, let alone by such a large amount.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

16 minutes ago, TheRoaringLion said:

btw if you do basic math vacuum has a basic range of 4.4 meters on a radius not full diameter.

let me explain:

sphere radius is 6 meters, spheres are hard to calculate with so lets make it a circle of 6 meters.
Retract the 2 meters of distance the carrier is of the ground and you got 4 meters.

and hey this is a full Pythagoras triangle that is easy to calculate.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PythagoreanTheorem.html

A²+B²=C²

we know C and B not A

so longest end is the circle radius of 6 meters shortest end is 4 meters, the longest end is the angled side of the triangle so its is side C shortest is B with 4 meters.

ok C² is 36
B² is 16

retract B from C and you get 20
Square root from 20 is 4.4721359549995793928183473374626 around 4.4 to 4.5 meters depending how this is rounded in game.

TBH not a lot of range

you can apply same logic to the pre nerfed looting range and that is a lot more.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

I remember picking up items from 12m far before this update (if I remember correctly - i'm not even sure at this point). This math makes me sad in ways more than one.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo