Warframe, balance and community.

[Yagamilight123]

2 hours ago, D20 said:

Hey, just wanting to discuss about something with the whole bunch of people around.

I'm taking some kind of risk by making that kind of thread by the way, because I have the feeling that it might not be a good idea to talk about how the community act and reacts on the forums. It just has potential to end into a huge fire, so I am probably doing a huge mistake. Anyway, before starting to talk about anything, because that thread will be mostly about the most recent tedious moments between DE and the community, and how the community reacts to nerfs in general, I would like to remind everybody to remain as respectful and insightful as possible : don't shame and name people for whatever reason, don't throw hateful messages, be polite no matter who you are talking about (DE and other people alike).

So yeah, it's been like, one week since the most recent Vaccum changes or so. Let's remember what happened before that : yet another massive wave of complaints, which is understandable. However what I did not understood at all is how violent that wave was. Sure a few people can be very vocal about some unpleasent changes, but to be honest I've never seen in my life such a gigantic ruckus. It was almost as big as the Vivergate I think, and a few members from the staff even got death threats. I myself questioned a few people about the recent changes, one of them was fine with the 6m radius, but every other people I questioned about the vaccum changes seemed overly angry about it, sometimes downright hostile.

Once DE changes the 6m Vaccum to what it actually is (a 12 meter Vaccum mod), everything suddenly changed and the whole community suddenly switched from a horde of growling tigers screaming "hate DE" to a wave of loving kittens. It just felt surreal to me, especially since a good number of those people where the first to bash the hell out of Digital Extremes a few seconds before.

When I'm bored, I oftely try to find new websites about subjects I like. Oftenly Warframe. And what I find oftenly amaze me (not in a good way) : it's really not that uncommon that I see people demonizing DE for such a light subject than weapon or warframe balance. Very oftenly on changes that didn't seem that much of an issue. I even feel sometimes like a good part of the community actually can't make a difference between a nerf or a buff (I won't give any exemple, it might make a lot of people react in a bad way). How did we end up with such a massive mistrust and hate for game balance (and more specifically "nerfing") ? This is something crazy and to be honest I can't find the same issue in any other game besides Warframe, or at least not as bad as here. It's like a visceral hate by a huge part of the community. Some people even contacted me a couple of time to ask me to mod someone because they considered that saying the "nerf" word was a trolling attempt.

This is not the first time the community seems to have a wave of overreaction of course, but it was pretty spectacular nontheless. Remember those multiple threads complaining about nerfs and bashing DE for it when it just was a random bug ? Remember the few people who tried to start crusades about DE just for something that wouldn't be seen as bad in any other game out (usually a nerf) ? Do you see everyday how much buffs are asked yet how much complaints there is about powercreep (very contradictory) ? This is what that whole discussion is about : haven't we a big issue about tolerating balance ? Don't we react way too much ?

The overreactions also somewhat make me worrying about the safety of DE's employees. I feel like more the time passes, more the community tends to get agressive when it is displeased. Sometimes during riots I can see people writing utterly antagonistic and threatening messages like "we are legion, don't displease us DE you'll regret it" (don't argue over it, I made it up, this is just an exemple). At this point I wouldn't even be surprised to hear that someone from Digital Extremes would end up in an hospital for crossing the path of a crazy fan because DE recently nerfed something. Some people even use DE's safety as an actual argument against nerfs ! "Don't do that DE, it's for your own safety". It's insane !

I also think we can say that all of this affects the game in a way that it's maybe not supposed to. A good part of the community may not realise it, but how Warframe became today is in a very big part due to how the community wanted the game to be. We asked for better shotguns ? DE delivered. Old Void is annoying ? Poof ! Void tears... We have much more power as a whole than most of you may think. I remind to everyone that from a somewhat "tactical" PvE shooter at the start, we evolved into something much easier, much more horde based. A common complaint is that the game is either too easy or frustrating. A huge reason for this seems to be how the community can react to nerfs. Did that kind of behaviour made us miss something much better ? Something that could have made Warframe a much better game than it actually is ?

So yeah, maybe we should play it a bit more cool with the whole "no nerf" thing. I'm okay with people not willing to see something getting the nerfbat, but it has at least to remain respectful and constructive. And when I say constructive, it's more in a way that looks like "X is fine as she is because she has a terrible range in all of her powers". Seriously, I just see way too much arguments like "nerfs are bad" or "don't like it, don't use it", but those feels just terrible. It's like a get out of jail for free card for those who lacks the arguments or the will to explain why X shouldn't be rebalanced. But I'm getting a bit off topic.

So yeah, any remarks ? Opinions ?

I read only parts of the post , but i dont see where is the rare or strange things about the community ... You (DE) do something bad , people will destroy you ... you do something good , people will be happy (people as a "general population") .... it's basic for any game company (and more in online games) .

The problem are not the nerfs itself ... the problem is let something extremely op (things that nobody can think are balance , so its seems that is the intention to be OP ) for months and after that try to nerf it (if you nerf something in days of release people will take it a lot less "extreme" ) .

For example ... mirage + simulor S , insane op , "lazy" how you called and since i started to play (a little more than 2 months) its not change .... when they nerf it , is going to be a desaster in the forum ;and with reason , you let people build and play around something extremely good for months (for them , not for the game in general) and then you take it away .

Pd : Sorry for the bad english xD .

Edited October 12, 2016 by Yagamilight123

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

8 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

New endgame is in the pipeline, delays have legit reasons behind them, nerfs are not always bad, the vacuum situation was controversial but i yhink its finally found niche.

That's the things people often ignore on forums. DE is always open minded to what community has to say, but community seems to rarely be open-minded in return. Which is just unfair.

It's nice to have promises and all, but players react to what they actually experience in the game. When stuff gets nerfed, players get mad. A promise is nothing more than a promise until it's added to the game.

[Sziklamester]

Partly agree with the op there is something wrong with that mentality. The problem mostly is peoples like to make their opinions and they hate when their confort zone is beign touched and many peoples react badly about changes. So many peoples cannot give constructive critic or feedback because the english is not their mother tongue and cannot explain well their thougths on things or not comprehend what changed and instead of trying explain and talk about it they begin arguing and drama on things. This is a primitive tool to make more attention on that specific subject. Those whom treating others are mostly warm headed persons whom feel their presence is enough to make changes. In the real life luckily these threats won't happen but this is a bad tendency which comes from the anonimity on internet. Socially these persons are not fluent and they cannot reduce their frustration other ways. As I experience there is no better or worser communities because in every community have different types off persons whom react differently when a change come.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Sziklamester

[BornWithTeeth]

3 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

It's nice to have promises and all, but players react to what they actually experience in the game. When stuff gets nerfed, players get mad. A promise is nothing more than a promise until it's added to the game.

Actually, part of the problem is that people very demonstrably do not just react to what they experience in-game. People began panicking and freaking out about the Vacuum thing when it was just drafted as a concept in a Devstream, long before any kind of change hit the game. When the patch hit, DE reverted it within hours because people were reacting so incredibly badly. If, as you say, players just respond to what they experience in-game, the community would not react the way that it does. 

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

You could compare the situation to politics. Politicians get elected based on what they promise. If they fail to deliver on those promises on time then they lose popularity and people start to hate them.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I agree that there is a large degree of toxicity in the forum community. I'm a console player and I don't tend to see too much vitriol on the console version itself, but the forums frequently get downright disgusting. 

Nerfs have a place. They aren't a punishment for the players. They are a way to balance aspects of the game towards the intended vision of the developer, as well as needs of the player base. This is a free game, and with that said DE is extremely responsive to it's players and active in it's additions to the game. Don't complain aboutt every little thing. You have no obligation to be here so if you truly hated the direction the game was moving you are more than welcome to move on with your life.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are far less console players than PC players of this game (i could be wrong). Even more than that I promise you there are far less console players using the forums than PC players for the obvious reason that it's not as convenient for console players. So to those that are, don't try to push the sickness of the forum community entirely on to the minority console community. You can look at the League of Legends community or WoW communities to see that you can be grossly immature with just a PC.

[Nordenfelt_]

I just given up on all that critique, and I don't want to care anymore what DE will make next. Index? Whatever. TWW? Well, for me is doesn't worth the waiting anymore, so I don't care about it too.
Objectively now game is in a good shape, there is only minor things what spoils a game experience for me and, I sure, for some other players too. We all know these problems, but we just adapted for it. All these minmax meta, weapon modding meta, Ash/Mirage+SS meta, et cetera - is a result of DEvs hops from one idea to another. DE can't concentrate on one thing what needs to be solved and after just move to the next problem. They are just adding useless niche content like Archwing and Lunaro, what doesn't enjoyable and beneficial for most of players.
This is pointless, just let DE do what they want to do. If you will bash them, not a damn thing will change. 
You all think what UniVac was a victory of community righteous anger? Is just a drop in ocean of problems what Warframe have now. And these problems is a result of game developers concept, not just wish-posts and death threats from players. 
So just get used to it and enjoy the game as much as you can.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Nordenfelt_

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Actually, part of the problem is that people very demonstrably do not just react to what they experience in-game. People began panicking and freaking out about the Vacuum thing when it was just drafted as a concept in a Devstream, long before any kind of change hit the game. When the patch hit, DE reverted it within hours because people were reacting so incredibly badly. If, as you say, players just respond to what they experience in-game, the community would not react the way that it does. 

Well yeah the whole point is that after all the nerfs, delays and unkept promises, people got really mad about the upcoming vacuum nerf and of course they were mad when vacuum was added to the game with nerfed range. So I don't really get your point.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Well yeah the whole point is that after all the nerfs, delays and unkept promises, people got really mad about the upcoming vacuum nerf and of course they were mad when vacuum was added to the game with nerfed range. So I don't really get your point.

My point is that people did not just react to their experience in playing the game. They reacted with overwhelming negativity to something which had not yet been put in the game. They reacted to a change which hadn't happened yet.

 

People began freaking out weeks in advance because of a tentative idea about how to change a thing, and yet when someone says that endgame is the next thing DE are working on, your response was that players only react to what's in-game. I was simply pointing out that that's not true.

[SeaUrchins]

DE received life threats over a game change? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, SeaUrchins said:

DE received life threats over a game change? You've got to be kidding me.

 

They were the kind of thing which could be waved off as a joke, like some stupid kid making edgy jokes and carrying it too far, sending Stalker quotes to DE Rebecca, but yeah.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

My point is that people did not just react to their experience in playing the game. They reacted with overwhelming negativity to something which had not yet been put in the game. They reacted to a change which hadn't happened yet.

 

People began freaking out weeks in advance because of a tentative idea about how to change a thing, and yet when someone says that endgame is the next thing DE are working on, your response was that players only react to what's in-game. I was simply pointing out that that's not true.

I'm not saying that players only react to what they see ingame. I'm saying it's not surprising that players got mad over an upcoming nerf and then got even more mad when it was added to the game. It's not surprising, because it's part of a string of recent nerfs and delays. On the other hand, we have a bunch of promises from DE which they have yet to deliver.

[13QZXXTTX]

DE, you can not dodge critics, no matter how annoying they are, and "the closest to perfection is near perfect". What I mean is, polish what you have and fix them, nerf is just pushing buttons, and expecting them to work 100% of the time. And you better know what those button do, because some of them can set off dynamite near anyone. In short: I do realize who you are talking about, I have spend (casuals) of hours on WarFrame, and not regret it.

My stand on Nerf vs Buff is this, does this make sense? Can you solo level 200? Yeah, look, that is good for you, and you asking for nerf, right, keep boasting on Region chat, then complaining on it in the forum, if you wish to, of all the time you have in your existence.

New starter need friends, otherwise they should be prepared to solo in the star chart, maybe get random public(some time good and bad). Compare to when I had started, out, the Pros out weight the Cons year ago.

Here the real problem with the community: "Toxic and Death Threats". There no one going to fix your game if the country is in a radiation aftermath.

Here the problem with DE: Have patience with us, Please stop mocking us, we try not to lie to you.

#DE Keep playing WarFrame and keep in contact with us all, we still come back even though there is nothing particularly to do some time, and no. not everyone of us like "popular HS games where everyone on up for it, you know the type, "friends social game" which did not work out for some Tennos. And honestly, I do not care what "my friends play", the hell they won't care either. Another reason I left those games. I.E. I used to play BFP4F, now it it is literally what OW is, the H311, WFace, CoD, it all in the box drop, known to give bad taste. (You think I want to pay another $40 or $60 buck and pay more money to get drops?)

WarFrame is a great gem than most game I have found, not too violent (the gore is an option), Quests to do, things to get, looking good, and at your own pace. Please remember to come up with awesome additions, like the Sculpture, which oddly I have not heard about in other games. (Except for the MMORPG type.) But yeah, don't feel too sad, it not your fault at time, people should be angry, (but not an all out suicides, that an GAME OVER thing). Just give them time, and hopefully they calm down or rational logic. "Who knows, we don't know what we do at time, so forgive us, but listen to us. And consider it, just take your time thinking about it and get it done." (Nope, I forgot who the quotes are from, or is it what I feel needed to be said).

THE GAME IS NEAR PERFECT, KEEP POLISHING WARFRAME, ADD MORE CONTENTS (the things you plan). Continue your visions, and we shall give you feedbacks, however, don't abandon us, this is an Epic Game waiting to be a Legend. But yes, in all civil manner, I would like Frames get a more Prime and better passives, most Frames are fine, but keep up the Great Work, DE. PS Keep your promises. Not everyone can see the whole picture, *I meant behind the scene one, not just the cover*

No, I do not support Internet stalker/creep/illegal activity, and all of that violence group mentality. I support we get stuffs done, that is the real idea, and not just talks.

Spoiler

Ideas on how the game can be "tweaked":

+Sentinel no longer outright die, able to be revived like Kubrow/Kavat, but the time limit can be half. Regen mod removed.

+Dodge for every frame is increased significantly to where damages can be avoided, turning game into an action combat with Space Ninja. (I think some one mentioned it, wroth mentioning).

+When players die or fail mission, instead of getting kick back(like an limited alert or fail Raid(raids still consume keys)) Everyone has the Interceptions choice at the end to leave(quit) or stay(try again, keep trying). 

+Flip the Relay, that was just for fun, ha ha.

+About the Archwings and Lunaro: Archwings should become exosuits  for Operator, ground combat (floating) space to space Mech combat. Lunaro is sport, and should not be emphasized, as people who loved sport still play them in real life.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by DesFrSpace

[Kinetos]

I believe the community is holding back damage 3.0, something I very much want to come out. I hope for more spread out MR requirements, damage that is normalized at MR Requirement, and a modding system where minmaxing for max damage or max utility aren't different in damage by 5000% on the same weapon. 

Community also makes it literally impossible to intelligently talk about the work my once-favorite Warframe needs. 

A saw and a screwdriver are both tools, one adds, one subracts, both are absolutely essential for construction. 

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

1 hour ago, Yagamilight123 said:

You (DE) do something bad , people will destroy you ... you do something good , people will be happy (people as a "general population")

let me tell you two stories with somewhat contradictory meanings but both still apply. 

 

1) You have a baby. Everyone is telling you that the baby is so cute, you did a great job and that it is going to be great. However, those other people don't know how many times you got #*($%%@.  Moral here - You have a successful product. Everyone is in awe and wonder of it all while not realizing how much time and blood/sweat/tears went into its creation.

 

2) A teacher writes 9 equations on her black board. All of them are correct except for the last one. A student calls her out on it and the teacher is slightly embarrassed. Moral here is - No matter how much good you do, people will always gravitate to and magnify the bad.

 

People are too quick to be in awe over things without thinking about how much time went into it. We jump to conclusions about bad thing without recognizing all the good will do for us and the game.

Edited October 12, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel

[(XBOX)GeckoGenesis]

Threads like these give me a bit of hope for the Warframe community knowing that there are still sane people who play the game. 

How does DE make it through the constant complaints, tantrums, and threats?  I feel bad for them and it's sad that they have to put up with this kind of behavior. 

 

[Madway7]

DE kind of opened the floodgates by allowing community feedback to affect their game and making it free to play at that.

It has its positives, but one major negative is that you give the community a sense of power and the "community" just simply being an umbrella term for people playing the game, means you'll be dealing with people with different ideas on different topics, leading to a split at times where DE has to make the final decisions and most likely will not please everyone.

And when they do it can feel like they took the community's power away, but not completely, since they still listen (or at least try to), which leads to them having to sift through conflicted responses between the loyal, the emotionally invested and sometimes even the people who don't care either way.

One issue with this game being an experiment is that DE seems to have little to no vision of how the final product is going to or should look like and prefers to instead involve the community as much as possible, which again, is just an umbrella term for a bunch of people that have something in common.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Madway7

[13QZXXTTX]

24 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

I believe the community is holding back damage 3.0, something I very much want to come out. I hope for more spread out MR requirements, damage that is normalized at MR Requirement, and a modding system where minmaxing for max damage or max utility aren't different in damage by 5000% on the same weapon. 

Community also makes it literally impossible to intelligently talk about the work my once-favorite Warframe needs. 

A saw and a screwdriver are both tools, one adds, one subracts, both are absolutely essential for construction. 

Depend on the tools, some people would say, some people may even argue that the other tools are important too. That is a limited view on reality I can guess. However, I think you are talking about Nerf and Buff, well you do not want Pile of Crop for dinner, or to be killed by too much Rich Food. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by DesFrSpace

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

+1 OP.

1 hour ago, Yagamilight123 said:

I read only parts of the post , but i dont see where is the rare or strange things about the community ... You (DE) do something bad , people will destroy you ... you do something good , people will be happy (people as a "general population") .... it's basic for any game company (and more in online games) .

The problem are not the nerfs itself ... the problem is let something extremely op (things that nobody can think are balance , so its seems that is the intention to be OP ) for months and after that try to nerf it (if you nerf something in days of release people will take it a lot less "extreme" ) .

For example ... mirage + simulor S , insane op , "lazy" how you called and since i started to play (a little more than 2 months) its not change .... when they nerf it , is going to be a desaster in the forum ;and with reason , you let people build and play around something extremely good for months (for them , not for the game in general) and then you take it away .

Pd : Sorry for the bad english xD .

q.e.d.

"people will destroy you"... jesus.

[Kinetos]

2 minutes ago, DesFrSpace said:

Depend on the tools, some people would say, some people may even argue, that the other tools are important too. That is a limited view on reality I can guess. However, I think you are talking about Nerf and Buff, well you do not want Pile of Crop for dinner, or to be killed by too much Rich Food. 

You are taking the analogy too literally even though you do appear to understand it. 

[BornWithTeeth]

29 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

I'm not saying that players only react to what they see ingame. I'm saying it's not surprising that players got mad over an upcoming nerf and then got even more mad when it was added to the game. It's not surprising, because it's part of a string of recent nerfs and delays. On the other hand, we have a bunch of promises from DE which they have yet to deliver.

Unsurprising.....but disappointing. A lot of the problems in the community come from people having kneejerk reactions to things without truly considering them or trying them. In particular, the idea that nerfing is a thing which players should be mad about is highly toxic in and of itself. People talk about how terrible the League of Legends community is, but if you ask any random League player whether nerfs and buffs are both necessary and must both exist, they'll almost certainly agree and say that such is only common sense.

 

19 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

I believe the community is holding back damage 3.0, something I very much want to come out. I hope for more spread out MR requirements, damage that is normalized at MR Requirement, and a modding system where minmaxing for max damage or max utility aren't different in damage by 5000% on the same weapon. 

Community also makes it literally impossible to intelligently talk about the work my once-favorite Warframe needs. 

A saw and a screwdriver are both tools, one adds, one subracts, both are absolutely essential for construction. 

 

Yeah, pretty much. People utterly lost it because DE nerfed vacuum. If DE released Damage 3.0 which acted as a broad rebalancing of all damage and removal of mandatory damage buff mods, then the community would actually just dissolve into shrieking madness. People would be howling from throats scoured raw, anguish would fill the air, players would be spotted eating each other raw in the streets, snarling guttural threats from vocal cords rendered bestial, eyes glinting red, devoid of reason. It'd be like Bloodborne...and that's kinda sad, really. DE know that.

 

Folks should probably chill and realise that the game would be better for a broad rebalancing.

[Skaleek]

3 hours ago, D20 said:

So yeah, it's been like, one week since the most recent Vaccum changes or so. Let's remember what happened before that : yet another massive wave of complaints, which is understandable. However what I did not understood at all is how violent that wave was. Sure a few people can be very vocal about some unpleasent changes, but to be honest I've never seen in my life such a gigantic ruckus.

No offense, but you must live an incredibly sheltered life if some forum posts were the most violent, gigantic "ruckus" you've (n)ever seen in your life. I saw a kid trip outside yesterday and that was more violent.

[13QZXXTTX]

4 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

No offense, but you must live an incredibly sheltered life if some forum posts were the most violent, gigantic "ruckus" you've (n)ever seen in your life. I saw a kid trip outside yesterday and that was more violent.

A Utopia is in fact a Dystopia, however some people can call it reality.

Nope sorry, that is not even violent, though that is growing up I think, do not suppose people go outside and play. Time changed.

[(PSN)LiamRising]

it does sadden me to see the way the community reacted to the recent changes so aggressively i feel sorry for the devs having to put up with this reaction to a change which people asked for, its no wonder the multi shot and damage/scaling changes have not come out yet. 

i just hope DE doesn't lose courage to do what they want to steer the game in right direction as many people point out the game seems to be heading into a dynasty warriors style horde game or Ninja Gaiden difficult skill based game but DE and the community seem lost on which one they want.

hopefully damage 3.0 when it finally hits gives us the change to see just where the game is headed and hopefully the community responds with constructive feedback and criticism instead of the childishness we saw with recent events.

[BornWithTeeth]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)LiamRising said:

 

hopefully damage 3.0 when it finally hits gives us the change to see just where the game is headed and hopefully the community responds with constructive feedback and criticism instead of the childishness we saw with recent events.

When Damage 3.0 hits, the community is going to shatter into a thousand razor edged shards coated in poison. I say this with great sadness, mind, but the problem is that by this stage, the community reacts incredibly badly to any change, even (perhaps especially) to the kinds of change which the game needs. Suggest reining in the power creep, suggest rebalancing weapons, suggest flattening the power scale a bit, and the community goes into hysterics.

 

So. Either Damage 3.0 is going to be massive powercreep which finally just breaks the game's own mechanics, or Damage 3.0 is going to be the rebalancing which the game rather needs. In the case of the latter, the community will break, they will hurl death threats, they will DDoS the game, the forums, the website, everything.

 

 

 

I am very tired now.