Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

12 minutes ago, schilds said:

Let's say current void trace farming averages around 5 traces per minute. Let's say with the changes, staying in as long as possible asymptotically approaches around 10 traces per minute. Leaving aside the exact numbers, doesn't something like that seem alright? The longer you stay in, the more efficient you're being.

Except, you seem to forget, it takes longer to kill enemies the further you go, you risk losing everything, and you can just run regular fissure missions without relics to get as many traces as you want anyway.

Edited October 29, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[schilds]

Firstly, they're not going back to endless rewards. I think the most you can expect is some kind of asymptotic boost to efficiency.

 

Secondly, I didn't forget anything. I specified "traces per minute". It would be up to DE to work out how to produce the right curve.

 

Even under the old system, there would have come a point where your time was better spent farming another key and starting again. If there wasn't such a point, then that suggests the difficulty leveled off for some reason. That would defeat one of the reasons for doing this, which is to push to your limit - that is one of the reasons, isn't it? It's not just a desire to cheese extra rewards for no extra effort, right?

 

There would not be that large a gap between having to stop the mission because your trace farming efficiency starts to fall, and having to stop the mission because you can't kill stuff anymore. Both are indications of reaching the limit of what you can achieve with your equipment and/or skills - that's the whole point of "endless" isn't it? If the former tends to occur earlier than the latter, all they need to do is adjust the reward curves for "efficient trace farming" and "efficiently staying alive and killing enemies" to be a reasonable match.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by schilds

[MartianGHunter]

I understand the point you have raised and from what I gather, whilst playing endless the Void Traces no longer have a cap and will scale up has you proceed through the mission.

As for relics dropping from eximus during that would prevent you running out of relics for that Era if and only if the eximus in the mission drop those specific relics e.g. if I am running Meso Survival fissure mission the Eximus should drop Meso relics only otherwise it would mean you could potentially gather relics you can't use for that run.

And another possible form of abuse that could come from letting Eximus drop relics in fissure mission is that a squad could come in and run mission with one relic each and use Eximus as their supply which is counter-productive to what i am seeing DE wanting to implement which is people playing missions around starchart then doing fissures for their prime rewards. So a way to prevent abuse from the system you like to implement is that maybe eximus only drop relics after X time e.g. maybe every 20 min you get maybe 5-10 special eximus unit that have X chance to drop relics that way you come in with a large stack of relics so you are prepared which is the direction I see DE taking this.

But overall I agree with what your saying and it would be a great idea if its implemented right and in a way that sorta prevents it from being abused.

[Sarattas]

It should work like refining. Each round would give you additional 1%, maybe 2% chance for rare item from relic, capped at 25% for example. It would make sense then to stay in mission as long as possible. Without that, why should we try to stay in endless mission instead of doing capture over and over again or just 1 round of endless, then queue again.

I would also like to see endless missions being nearly impossible to do after like 45 minutes, to create some challenge instead of 3 hours of farm with endless cc. But thats another story and needs major rebalance of warframes abilities unfortunately.

[MartianGHunter]

Okay from what I am seeing how many people in this thread genuinely played with the OLD Void and when i say old void i mean when you run 1hr 30 min yes granted with one (But FYI keys were extremely hard to come by especially when starting off the game) only to get a truck ton and i mean a truck ton of useless junk and never ever getting the part you desire. People then complained.

New relic system arrives everyone gets their desired parts in a matter of hours if RNGesus smiles upon you or 2 days if he was in a bad. But Baby Baro comes around requiring 500 ducats which you don't have for a skin and you start to realize that the junk you hated you now need. People then complained.

Now DE looking to bring a new system that essentially means that you are guaranteed a prime item which after  1hr 30min means you are getting 18 prime items of varying degrees and for some of us MinMaxers means we get a lot of potential forma for using our maxed out gear.

Obvious this is not meant for any players looking for a specific part that's why the captures and exterminates exist but this is people like myself who have around 100 relics for each relic because as i level gear i go on specific relic farms and hence i am sitting on a mountain of relics and this is a way for me to burn through them and actually get rewarded for endurance runs.

And like I keep saying to everyone on forums, they are different kinds of players in Warframe I am part of community of endurance runners who actually enjoy seeing level 170 walk across our monitors and the cost potential of being one shot by a stray bombard rocket as well as using different gear to see how long we can last. So this system isn't for speedrunners its for endurance players with a lot of relics and if you don't like the system your not forced to play it which is the BEAUTY of Warframe and DE they allow you to play how and what you want and do not force you into Certain Meta (the only Meta there is is the one we put on ourselves as players because someone lied to us that efficiency == fun which we all now have realized if you have played for more than 6 months isn't true).

This is my opinion I welcome the change as someone whose played this game for the better part of 2 and half years on console and now more on PC. 

[MartianGHunter]

9 minutes ago, Sarattas said:

It should work like refining. Each round would give you additional 1%, maybe 2% chance for rare item from relic, capped at 25% for example. It would make sense then to stay in mission as long as possible. Without that, why should we try to stay in endless mission instead of doing capture over and over again or just 1 round of endless, then queue again.

I would also like to see endless missions being nearly impossible to do after like 45 minutes, to create some challenge instead of 3 hours of farm with endless cc. But thats another story and needs major rebalance of warframes abilities unfortunately.

This isn't really true because at 1hr mark enemies get to a certain level that CC won't save you and this coming from someone that runs solo survivals and squad defenses and excavations when enemies become bullets sponges that even when you crowd control its extremely easy to go down and getting to 3 hr is extremely hard with CC and is only truly easily done with stealth frames like Ivara this is from actually playing not stories i have heard.

Edited October 29, 2016 by MartianGHunter

[Xzorn]

27 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

-snip-

 

Ideally I would think Eximus would have a %chance to drop a Relic, say 3% for instance. As enemy level increases the occurrence of Eximus units also increases which would naturally improve incentive as later in levels it's common to fight 3-5 Eximus at once.  You of course don't want Eximus to fully supply your Relic needs but work more as scaling reimbursement of your costs.   I agree they should only drop Relics their Fissure is associated with.

If they get rid of the Traces cap, that would at least fix most of the problem. You'd still have to leave to upgrade Relics but through a few games you can get a bank of upgraded relics going and it would probably work out overall. The way it is now, we effectively have a stopping point where we will hit the Traces cap every time.

[MartianGHunter]

Everyone on this thread talks like the new endless relic system is replacing the captures and exterminates like I said in another post, this mode isn't perfect but it is not and I repeat not for speedrunners this is for people like myself who have hundreds of relics just sitting there and hate going through loading after loading screen just to get enough junk for Baby Baro because not all of us have the gift of good internet (Darn Africa) so using my Maxed out Inaros/Valkyr/Chroma/Mag/Frost in an endless survival to burn through my relics for as much prime junk and forma as RNGesus bestows upon me is a much appreciated change and me and my endurance run friends welcome it with open arms #Glory Be to the VOID

[MartianGHunter]

From what i am gathering they want us to increase our mastery rank to increase our trace cap if you hit your cap after 1hr in a lith fissure survival you can go to ship max out maybe 10 relics to radiant plus or minus depending which is basically worth another 50min worth of a survival run. And from my observation after 10 radiant relic runs with 4 other people you get the rare part at least a minimum of  3 times means you are most likely after 1hr going to get 4 or more rare part drops this is all done to good RNG tho but even without using radiant relics and runs in pub groups I get alot or rare drops so this new endless is just a way of cutting down load screens and for people who want and enjoy playing at those high change levels.

[(PSN)greensmaragd]

All the Shi*storm and De give us this Shi*? 

The title new endless is fraud

De dount need old players back...ok

De dount need my Money for Platin...ok

 

ok bye bye. i see no Workup 

Back to inaktive 

ps
I never saw any complaints about the old void. These are rumors

Search Function ... i found 3 People from 400000+

Edited October 29, 2016 by (PS4)greensmaragd

[(XBOX)Englands Own]

55 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

Everyone on this thread talks like the new endless relic system is replacing the captures and exterminates like I said in another post, this mode isn't perfect but it is not and I repeat not for speedrunners this is for people like myself who have hundreds of relics just sitting there and hate going through loading after loading screen just to get enough junk for Baby Baro because not all of us have the gift of good internet (Darn Africa) so using my Maxed out Inaros/Valkyr/Chroma/Mag/Frost in an endless survival to burn through my relics for as much prime junk and forma as RNGesus bestows upon me is a much appreciated change and me and my endurance run friends welcome it with open arms #Glory Be to the VOID

I agree totally with that and DE also mentioned the longer you go, the more traces that can be obtained.I welcome It, Warframe definitely lost something after SOTR.So I'm pleased about the changes.

Edited October 29, 2016 by (XB1)Englands Own
misspelling

[Kimimoto]

I think most people who are upset with this are missing the point.

You shouldn't get a ton of rewards for one relic, the price of everything is bad enough with how easy it is to get rare pieces via traces(which IMO "play without relic" should be abolished). If you only had to spend one relic while being able to choose your reward, all the prime parts in the game would be worth half of what they are now. If you're trying to get the most prime parts for time spent then this endless update really isn't for you. 

 

Now if you're tired of running level 5 capture fissures and want to be challenged while receiving the same rewards, then there's great news! Endless Fissures allow you to go as long as you with wish, to test your limits and be engaged. Finally you can use those 6 forma weapons on some high level baddies, instead of pointing it in the vague direction of a mouse and nuking the place. I really just want to play the game again instead of playing Netflix, and I believe that's exactly what this will accomplish.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Kimimoto

[Kalvorax]

17 hours ago, tbeest said:

With the system proposed in the latest dev stream you will still have to use a relic every 5 waves. Which means that you might as well abort at 5 waves and go back in. 

and this is how it should be....why should I have to go into say, a survival planning to go for say, 40-50 minutes, and NOT use multiple relics...compared to what it is currently its far better...as for the key system, while yes it would be nice to have it back in some form, i knew i would NEVER use all the keys i had if it was only used one per run to get multiple parts.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

It's a prime part for every one relic , the old system every 5 mins you get 1 reward .

the new system you get 1 of 4 choices , which make this system better than the old one 

you want more rewards farm more relics.

[LuckyCharm]

3 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said:

Except, you seem to forget, it takes longer to kill enemies the further you go, you risk losing everything, and you can just run regular fissure missions without relics to get as many traces as you want anyway.

I didn't forget,  and just when did anyone ever fail missions under 25 waves with a decent party anyway assuming they're actually going in there geared and not half assed? And with a decent party the enemies don't actually ever feel like they get harder in that short time. I can use my mesa for most defense missions and until about wave 25 I can pretty much peacemaker down every wave with no issue. I'm sure there's plenty of other frames that can too. Throw any sort of buff on mesa and you're good to go till about wave 40 or more, (though at that time yes, waves take a little longer, but not pre-25). 

Saryn, RJ can do the same. With buffs so can volt. Can't really talk on rhino because I've not forma'd mine for stomp. 

[Voltage]

Now, I don't need to point out everything wrong with this system DE is proposing, other threads already did that job. This thread is for a solution to this terrible idea. Here is my thoughts:

1) As others said, increase the rare/uncommon chance as the mission goes longer. This would allow some reason to stay longer

2) One Relic will go into Rotation AABC and at the end of rotation C, the screen comes up showing 4 rewards from your relic chosen and then ask you to extract or use another key. If you feel you must extract at 5/10/15/25/30 etc, you can extract and miss out on the last X rewards tha key had (leave at 10 minutes and miss B and C rewards)

3) Allow 1 relic to be used per squad, meaning that you can "key share" and get 4 rewards after using 1 relic from you, and one from each other player in the party (I do not think this idea is an optimal solution, just throwing it out there)

EDIT:

4) (Found this in another thread) Allow eximus to drop relics with a small chance allowing people that stay longer a reimbursement to continue. This would help as eximus units spawn more as you go, and you could get keys that you will spend every rotation.

This is all I could think of. Feel free to add ideas for solutions instead of DE forcing more relics to be spent for the equivalent of restarting the mission.

Edited October 29, 2016 by --Q--Voltage

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, MartianGHunter said:

From what i am gathering they want us to increase our mastery rank to increase our trace cap if you hit your cap after 1hr in a lith fissure survival you can go to ship max out maybe 10 relics to radiant plus or minus depending which is basically worth another 50min worth of a survival run.

I know they probably want to keep Mastery tied to Traces to give it value which is why I came up with a less direct change. The quickest fix would be to remove the Traces cap completely.

To use your example it's not the ideal Endless most people want, it's 50min and always 50min until which point it becomes exactly what we have because the system doesn't allow it to function any other way.

It's for sure better than what we have. I'm looking forward to not spamming the same mission every 5 minutes and I'm using an M.2 SSD on a 100mbit connection but with the right tweaks it can be a lot better and truly fulfill that interest to push the limits we once had.  I spend about 50% of my time theory crafting in this game. I don't need more prime parts I just need an excuse and like I said in my first post, I still do lvl 300 solo for fun but anything at all for that extra effort would be nice as getting Traces when I'm caped seems like the opposite effect.

[MartianGHunter]

Yeah I get where you coming I am in same position but all we can do is give feedback and hope DE improves on it

[alfaomega04]

Yep, this completely missed the point of fixing the non existent endless incentive. I was going to make a post with constructive feedback and the cons and pro's and the reason why we need endless, but seeing as how the forum is full of such posts and the ideas are never really implemented, I'll skip all that and simply say that this new mode does absolutely nothing to make me want to play endless missions like before void 2.0. I guess back to my dailies and log out I guess.  

Edited October 30, 2016 by alfaomega04
Spelling/grammar

[(PSN)Pixel_Torchic]

so i was discussing this with a few clan mates and we can up with a scratch idea that if refined properly would bring endless missions back to their old glory

so to first solve a issue we need to understand what the issue is here is a list of what i think are the current issues with endless prime farming

1.it takes longer then normal missions for the exact same reward

2.they dont give any meaningfull rewards past that relic pop

3.endless missions also dont give any meaningfull drop period which just makes everything worst

so to solve those issues we came up with some ideas

1.make it so we can do 1 of 2 things

A.pre select all the relics we want to use in that mission the issue with this is that we can go further then what we select the amount of relics for which is a minor issue if u plan ahead but still a worth noting issue regardless

B.keep the idea suggested in the devstream but improve opon it the issue with this one is that people can get scammed by other people just not using the good relics after the first rotation

how to improve it note:this doesnt really change based on which of the options above u pick

so the idea is to make it so we get more rewards for time invested in that case we would make the following changes

1.first rotation A stays exactly as it is right now 

2. second rotation A gives u a bonus amount of traces could be 10 15 30 or even 50% or could scale high the further u are in the mission

3.rotation B now give u a +1 relic level effect so if u have a flawless relic it now counts as a radiant if u have a radiant it counts as a "perfect" relic which is 1 level further then radiant this could also scale the further you are in the mission but i think it would be too much

4.rotation C now give u 2 drops per relic this could be changed in many way u can make it so it also has the +1 effect u can make it so the second drop will always be rolled with regular relic chances if this is applied u can make it so the +1 does affect the first drop but not the second or it could just be based on the lv of the relic also for this to work u obviously need to be able to pick up 2 of the (potentialy) 8 itens rolled in that rotation 

5.after the first one every A rotation benefits from the bonus traces 

things this would fix 

1.now the endless missions are rewarding your time invested in then with a good amount of traces/ducats rare itens and just non stop action

2.this doesnt make normal missions worthless because they are still faster and more efficient for ducat/trace farming in average runs if u compared the same amount of time and not the same amount of drops

3.give players a endgame in the sense of being something players need to invest time and effort to prepare and be able to do efectively which will also greatly increase the life time of the game because players now have a reason to forma weapons and frames to fight these really high lv enemies in late endless missions 

4.it also helps to fight burnout because now players have something to do that requires time and invest and if u get people invest in something for a long time it takes longer for then to burnout

i thing this is enough XD sorry for the long post but this is a very complex subject in which one tiny change can completely F*** the game up in many ways also thanks if u got this far into my super long post that im only making longer by dragging it like this XD 

[(PSN)FifaFutgiveaway]

So this thread is mostly about the recent news on the 'new' relic 'endless' missions. So the main problem about the current endless based thing is that there's no good rewards to do them, e.g staying in a MOT survival for 2 hours just to get like 800 endo is pathetic and the fact of the constant running back and forth to get relics and use them for prime parts. What DE said in Devstream 82 was that if you're doing a Defence mission and it's a fissure one, you now have to change your relic to something else per 5 waves if it's cracked (Apparently that's going to fix our 'endless' problem). Well no, it makes things worse DE and here's why.

Instead of just literally fixing the whole endless thing, you sugar coat it with your own little spin on it and completely push aside all of our cries for help and suggestions, meaning you're not listening to the community. "You now have to change your relic to something else per 5 waves if it's cracked". Why not just have it so we can bring a Radiant relic (for example) and use it for the whole duration of the mission? As that literally fixes the problem, it also brings back your worth per key type of thing, and decreases void trace grind significantly. Another example of DE just straight right ignoring us was with the vacuum within update, as it took them literal death threats to listen (I'm not saying to send them death threats to get them to listen) and that's how you know you have an angry community.

Point is, could you just fix the actual core of the problem DE instead of throwing a cover over it like a blanket fix which is insignificant to the initial problem? Like you did with vacuum in the first place (Nerfing it to 6m and making it global, when we actually just wanted it to be global).

 

edit: This system is also flawed, as you can stay for 5 waves and join back in and have the same chance to get what you want instead of staying against harder enemies the higher the wave/minute.

Edited October 29, 2016 by (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway

[DeadScream]

Hi, 

Second to the last devstream, it looks like we are getting a "new" endless possibility with the relic system...

Meh. I don't like it. Being able to chose another relic and continue the mission just looks like basically start another one. Less difficult, as much rewarding. 

 

How about placing endless missions in the Void that would be here for void traces farm and a little chance at a relic pack ? 

 

• Every round / 5 waves / 5 minutes / you have a chance to gain 5 (common reward), 10 (uncommon) or 20 (rare 1) void traces
• On the same loot table, you have a chance to loot a "relic pack" (rare 2 reward), which includes one random relic of each era. (1 lith, 1 meso, 1 neo and 1 axi, all at random)

 

The more you stay in the mission, the rarer are your rewards. Depending on the mission level, you could get more or less chances at getting more or less rare relics. 

 

In my opinion, this system would at the same time bring an "old tower endless feel" and a new solution for traces and relic farm. 

But it's just my opinion, some feedback would be welcome.

 

(love you all)

[Trichouette]

They could fix ANYTHING in this game, but you know they can't / don't want to lower the grinding.

If you use 1 relic and get multiple reward out of it OR multiple opportunity to get what you want, that lowers the grind a lot.

So why would they do that ?

At least this new system claims to make trace farming easier, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Rorgal_Sina]

Multiple radiant rewards per relic feels broken though.

[ragingdeamon]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Instead of just literally fixing the whole endless thing, you sugar coat it with your own little spin on it and completely push aside all of our cries for help and suggestions, meaning you're not listening to the community.

a LOT  of people asked for at least this "fix" for endless missions. I've seen it a lot. I was one that opposed these, as the endo grind would have been much worse. we will see.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

Why not just have it so we can bring a Radiant relic (for example) and use it for the whole duration of the mission?

this is the old key system that was scrapped because no one was doing non endless missions. if this is implemented, the problem will be worse than before, since you will be able to choose your missions and your reward table at the same time. will not happen. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)FifaFutgiveaway said:

edit: This system is also flawed, as you can stay for 5 waves and join back in and have the same chance to get what you want instead of staying against harder enemies the higher the wave/minute.

this was not true when keys were around, you cannot ask for something that was never there.