Dev Stream 82: Endless Relic missions feedback

[schilds]

Because there are people still in "endless" games from back then. Wait ...

 

Just farm more relics than you'll need. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

As edited where appropriate in my previous post, it appears that not all rotations are created equal.

 

After investigating the recommended Xini node, it does a much more adequate job of providing high grade Relics, with Neo from the very first wave and the potential for Axi on third and fourth.

 

If that followed suit consistently for the other source nodes (Derelict Survival, why do you give Lith?) then this thread would be much less accurate to the grind.

However, that lack of consistency and more importantly, the difference being so opaque until investigated directly, is why this thread remains partially relevant.

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

 If only they made it that at every 5th wave or 5th minute you could either choose a reward or keep going with the same relic and have another roll at the next 5th minute or wave and so on and so on.

 Hell make it so if you "chance" another roll if you bleed out you altogether lose your relic roll but can still evac with traces at the next 5th minute/wave

[HypheNation]

Alright, so the recent Devstream proved that DE wants to implement an endless version of fissure missions. Now, I'm sure we're all fine with that, but their version of the implementation was mediocre at best, in my opinion. They had it so that it paused every 5 minutes/waves/etc to choose a reward and then a new relic. Well, I'm here to present an alternative idea.

Here's my idea for survival(just change the appropriate values for defense and interception.)

• Each player will choose a relic normally while queuing the mission.

• Every five minutes, the reactant count will be increased by 10 (or just reset.).

• Once you extract, you will get several "waves" of choices depending on how many cycles you stayed for. If you were to stay for 20 minutes, for example, you would get 4 waves of choices, each the same relics per person but just re-rolled. You can't see the next wave(s) of choices when choosing a reward.

• However, you can only choose a reward from each player's relic ONCE.

This may result in situations where the first wave has only bronze-level rewards, You choose a random one, but that happens to be the same player's relic as the gold-level reward in the next wave. You will end up getting one item per relic used, but it may not always be fully optimal.

I'm not entirely sure on it yet, but my idea for continuation past 20:00 is that you are allowed to continue using the same relic, but enemy tier goes up and random nightmare/sortie modifiers start getting added, and you are forced into choosing the same relic pattern that you did for the first four waves.

This is the best idea I can come up with to bring forth endless prime part missions again.

TL;DR endless fissures that lock people out of a certain relic's rewards after one choice; allow for more ducats per relic(in groups) but potentially less efficiency when part hunting.

 

This was originally another thread on its own, but it just got moved here, so alrighty then. Excuse the thing being a bit out of nowhere, I'm too lazy to change it.

Edited October 30, 2016 by EnigmaForce
added a bit, then clarified something

[schilds]

The relic system shifted the focus towards farming relics in normal missions, with reduced time exchanging them for primes in special missions. Now when a new prime comes out there's no chance of avoiding playing normal missions for a bit.

 

Most of the suggestions I've seen for "endless" missions run contrary to what looks to me like a primary intent of the relic system.

 

Attempting to apply the "endless rewards" mechanic of void keys to relics may also have unintended consequences due to drop tables now being tied to relics.

 

[Gorila_Azul]

Putting the issues of relic economy, reward-relic ratio and the benefit/incentive to running endless missions aside for a tiny moment... 

Considering the relics are basically boxes containing random treasures inside them ala Shrödinger's Cat... ever thought how weird it would be to get multiple items from the same relic? It would be like breaking a crate, looking at what's inside, then fixing it, breaking it again and finding something different entirely. Lolwut.

[Fast_98]

3 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

endless is coming after TWW, they already talked about it. and when did anyone in the old void SUR died at 30min? how the hell do you use 4 revives before 30min : P 

and since endless enemies get tougher, bringing ember and other dmg frames wouldn't be that effective. and that's just the players fault, there's nothing wrong with the system 

prime parts farming was never intended to be challenging

 

 

personally, I'm glad it's gone. do you know what I remember? I remember camping for a full boring hour in the sewers, I remember every squad having an ash and an EV, and I couldn't take my fav frame cos people thought it 'isn't good enough' 

sure, the 1st endless was exciting, the 10th was good, the 100th is ok, but the 1000th is freaking boring. and when 90% of your rewards were just OCs and stupid cores compared to the almost 100% guaranteed prime part.

there is no doubt the new system is more effective at getting the stuff you want. a lot of people got the latest PA rather quickly. what we have to do is give good feedback to improve this even farther 

 

So because you hated an aspect for it mean everyone does? Like I see your point of useless stuff like orikin cells and credit see but their are people who enjoyed going on those grinds. As for your frame not being good enough just go with clan mates or find some friends like it not that hard. plus I want to know who ever went to the 1000 round? Try hards, most people went for an hour to grind or have fun and see how good their builds are. Sorry if I'm rambling on and on but what the point of getting the latest prime piece when their nothing challenging of use it on ? Like should I just keep running  void extermination and caps because their so much fun.

Ps the longest void run i have done was like 2 hours. 

[GinKenshin]

41 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

So because you hated an aspect for it mean everyone does? Like I see your point of useless stuff like orikin cells and credit see but their are people who enjoyed going on those grinds. As for your frame not being good enough just go with clan mates or find some friends like it not that hard. plus I want to know who ever went to the 1000 round? Try hards, most people went for an hour to grind or have fun and see how good their builds are. Sorry if I'm rambling on and on but what the point of getting the latest prime piece when their nothing challenging of use it on ? Like should I just keep running  void extermination and caps because their so much fun.

Ps the longest void run i have done was like 2 hours. 

DE already said that more 'endgame stuff is coming, like the syndicate 'hitman' stuff and another thing I forgot. like I said, no one ever said or mentioned that prime farming is THE END GAME 

and I respect everyone's opinion, but I clearly remember the hate and frustration threads in the old void, saying stuff like "I went to 60min/wave 50 times and no X, why????" some people do enjoy it, but over time you will get bored, it's a fact

and mate, I meant 1000th RUN, not ROUND, like you did 1000 void defense you will get burnt out. and I never said I wasn't 'good enough' to be able to do higher rounds/waves/min >.>  

[schilds]

Most suggestions are essentially about how players might be guaranteed (in exchange for time spent) the prime parts they want.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

i think the issue there is no reason to do endless even with the proposed system. void traces? if you remove the cap per mr that is. i dont wanna see someone leaving the game because their traces are at max capacity.

[(PSN)VexaKM]

The idea sounds decent in theory, but if could be a nightmare in organized relic sharing groups. What would make this redeemable is if you do not any of the rewards you can opt out in exchange for an X amount of endo/ducats/traces instead. What do you all think?

[Fast_98]

32 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

DE already said that more 'endgame stuff is coming, like the syndicate 'hitman' stuff and another thing I forgot. like I said, no one ever said or mentioned that prime farming is THE END GAME 

and I respect everyone's opinion, but I clearly remember the hate and frustration threads in the old void, saying stuff like "I went to 60min/wave 50 times and no X, why????" some people do enjoy it, but over time you will get bored, it's a fact

and mate, I meant 1000th RUN, not ROUND, like you did 1000 void defense you will get burnt out. and I never said I wasn't 'good enough' to be able to do higher rounds/waves/min >.>  

Oh in no way am I saying that your not good enough and  if it sounds Iike that then I apologize.  I guess you can say that prime farming was not endgame but it was the only thing around at the time that was challenging and sorta fun to do (for some people). The new system is great for farming prime parts but the only two types of mission people do now is extermination or captures while survival, defense & interception relics are not used because their not worth doing. Your right their was burn out in void 1 but I feel like I an argue that the new void is just as bad if not for the prime parts but how repetitive the is as well. Also yeah it easy to find a group trying to get the latest prime part but it real struggle trying to find 3 other people wanting to farm a rare part that not new (looking at vectis p).

[_Vortus_]

For me, think should be able to put in as many relics as you want into a  relic pool.   Allowing you to see both yours and your squad mates before the game starts.   That way if there was an issue it could be dealt with before the game.   Essentially the players would be booking how many waves they could handle.   So I say we are going to wave 50 on a defense, so each player would need to pony up 10 relics into the pool.   1 relic per 5 wave.    Can put as many as you want into the pool, what you use you use, what you don't goes back into your inventory.  

A squad of 4 going to 50, 2 players put in 10 relics, 2 only have 8.    On the last two round, the two with 8 only get traces, just like the current system.   All 4 could continue the run and only collect traces past 50. 

If you are knowingly going to commit to a long run, a couple minutes to set up the squad isn't a big deal.

[Emulad0or]

I think you can't use the Megathread tag

[Misgenesis]

6 hours ago, GreaseMan852 said:

 

 

6 hours ago, ShadowFox14 said:

 

Im not against what they currently propose. Its just that giving better rewards, albeit for increasing challenge, for endless missions specifically would pressure one to do those instead. Defence in particular is mind numbing as its slow and boring to just sit around.

But thats just me i suppose. If its coming for survival as well then thats somewhat better but id rather they do increased levels and modifiers like sorties for better rewards.

[-CCC-Secret]

RIP English. Also never use the Megathread tag, only for Mods/Staff.

From what I understand is that, if you do not like the rewards, you can choose Endo/Ducats/Traces instead?

I personally want relics to give prime parts only, though, so I'm not gonna agree with that. Endo you can practically get anywhere, Ducats from the part you get, and Traces from opening the Relic. I don't see why you would want to switch a prime part for those instead.

[ScribbleClash]

How about no. You use your relic to begin with, why would I have to pay if I went out earlier?

15 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

I think you can't use the Megathread tag

Seriously, how long can it take them to fix this anyway? This should be quite a simple matter coding wise.

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Not everyone had keys stockpiled, no, but for every single key that was generated in the game, four people got one or more shots at the items. Stockpiling hundreds aside, at least you were likely to accumulate something between Prime Accesses. Now, it's every player for themselves, one relic to one drop only, radiant or don't even bother trying to group.

Your second point, outside of trusted circles, will not happen. The system disincentivises that risk, but at the cost of actual items being generated per person. Frankly, I'd rather have that occasional baddie that cuts and runs before they used their key, than be forced to essentially keyshare every time to maintain the best possible drop rate after all the grindy grind grindtimes.

Traces are bonuses, yes. But they are also mandatory on desired items, because nobody wants to spend all that time key grinding and have anything less than an optimal chance. It's an option removed. With keys, you could opt for the keyshare, or just host your own with randoms, then at your leisure, be the random on other people's key to make up the difference. Now you need to keyshare because of how the 'improvements' work, so you need to get traces for Radiants.

 

You're right that not all prime parts were available in multi-dropping missions. But, how many missions did have extra drop chances? 1-4 MD, Ext, Cap vs. 1-4 Survival, Defense, Sabs and T4 Interception, plus some ODD and ODS for flavour. The tendency to put more things in endless missions than in others also reflects here. You've gone from some prime parts aren't in Endless to nothing is in endless and you don't even acknowledge that's a step backwards.

But my first point wasn't about number of rewards (btw its for every key generated it was up to four people; a solo key is basically a relic) it was about acquisition of chance. It was to point out that the grind hasn't been greatly altered from day one of void to now at the foundation (to be fair its gotten simpler with the addition of game modes and revisions to the tables). What has changed was the invalidation of stockpiles. And as I said, if DE didn't change the system but still added more keys wed end up in the same place even with endless. 

Yes in a full squad total items granted was lowered by 75% per run. However this only particularly concerns ducats (and opportunistic plat trading which DE allowing plat trading in the first place still surprises me to this day). If you soloed things (which is basically my old void preference) nothing has changed except loss of multi drops in endless. I view relic shares as me saving time by multiplying my own work by 4 even though I only get 1 reward (but it is my pick). Despite what people think, sharing relics only accomplishes saving time by gaining the benefit to pick from relics that are not your own. You don't increase your odds by grouping up because the game only rolls the dice more times. You don't get better drop rates you run the mission 4 times at the same time. Get it? Its an intermediary to solo vs group dynamics.

Which brings me to my second point. "Will not happen" is quite absolute as well as incorrect just by personal experience. I've seen helpful people in chat and I've seen talks in the forums, it being unlikely I will grant but I don't trust my random squad to survive Sortie1 why would I expect random people to be helpful in farming. But trusted people are the best way to do anything efficiently anyway. Also are you implying that people cheating the system was acceptable? Everyone should have been forced to participate in the first place (few exceptions apply).

Mandatory? By social contract... perhaps. By mechanics... not in the slightest. But as I also said grouping up doesn't provide you with any bonuses other than saving you time. If you don't want to radiant that's fine you can solo as much as you want if you want a rare item but don't want to trace "at your leisure"; your odds aren't going to change in the group. So no, options were not removed.

Now personally acknowledging it as "a step backwards" is a perspective. I remember when before survival, def was 1 reward per run (I think even interception was on that system for awhile too). They were given survival reward system treatment out of some strange bid for consistency and perhaps some game mechanic ramifications and limitations. But I have always felt that by just giving all the rewards lessened the risk involved with staying. I would have preferred a system where there was an increase to rares the longer you stay (that being said I want the average rare rate to be given by 30min mark) but still only one reward. So your step backwards was more or less a corrected step from long ago to me. The fascination of differing opinions.

[ScribbleClash]

This is basically the old system, just way worse. Sorry DE-Devs, but this idea reeks. People liked the old system, because they could bank on using one key (or in this case relic), to gain several rewards. There is litteraly no benefit of stayin 20 waves, over doing 4x5 waves, other than avoiding loading screens.

If you truly wish such a system, higher waves need to come with benefits. 
E.g.:

Each cycle (5 Waves/5 Minutes/500 Cryotic/1 Interception) decreases the chances for Common and Uncommon loot by 1% and 0.5% respectively and adds a 1.5% rare loot chance to the next relic. (additively over the course of the endless mission)
This change is supposed to entice players to keep going for more

Every 4 cycles, the chance for rare loot is doubled at the cost of the chance for common drops.
This is a milestone to give players a reasonable opt out point in the endless waves. Additionally this allows to strategicly apply your relics in order to maximize your chances.

Considering the chances as such:

• COMMON: 50.00%
• UNCOMMON: 40.00%
• RARE: 10.00%

We'd end up with something of 44%(= (10%+12%)*2) RARE, 36% UNCOMMON and 30% COMMON chance on wave 40. (back to only 23.5% RARE chance on the next cycle)

Obviously this may (or should) be capped to prevent data overflow (don't want a likewise situation like CP giving grineer infinite armor to reappear).

[GDSK-NXS]

You already get a lot of traces and endo from those missions, as they are endless relics, and whatever prime you get are also ducats if you don't want them, so... case closed?

[schilds]

None of these "endless" threads are about gameplay, they are all about "endless (chance at) rewards".

 

DE would have been far better off leaving relics and prime farming as is, working out what "endless" means and coming up with a gameplay concept from scratch, and only then see if it would work with relics/primes - if not, let it be its own game mode.

Instead, by linking it to relics/primes, everyone was immediately reminded of the old reward system and we now have a hundred posts essentially saying the same thing: "this doesn't give us as many rewards as we used to get, don't like it".

 

I sincerely hope that after the proposed change is introduced, DE spend no more time on it (outside of minor QoL tweaks) and go back to thinking about gameplay.

Edited October 30, 2016 by schilds

[Nameless]

I would say instead of re-choosing a relic every 5min/waves make one relic last a full rotation AABC. But also scaling/skewing of the relic.

Such as you choose your relic. and thats good for 20 mins After 20 mins you can choose another relic but then it becomes refined to flawless or whatever(for free because you stay longer). Which will give you better odds at getting the rare item AND wont make people able to sewer camp on one relic for 2 hours. However this would also have a drawback that you can NOT take any refined relic into the endless, but i'm not too sure about this drawback so tell me what you think!).

clearer explanation with example:

at 0 mins:
i choose neo v3 - which will be unrefined
at 20 mins: i choose neo v2 - which will get upgraded to Exceptional
etc etc until you have radiant and from that point it wont go higher.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Nameless816

[taiiat]

well, i figured there might be cognitive discussion going on in here.
presumably about making playing more than one Rotation (or even a full Rotation tbh since atm you'd to half a Rotation) worth doing, for both Void Traces as well as Key Rewards. (so probably an increasing trend of awarding Reward again + a bit to make it worth doing over spending tons of time in a Loading Screen)

instead, i see people that have no idea what they're talking about, trying to prove their unfounded claims as correct.
whether that is trying to count how many Players there are, whether Digital Extremes plays Warframe, whether Digital Extremes 'listens' to them personally, trying to represent everybody despite having no sample data to suggest their views do, that personal item targets automatically represent what is healthy for a Video Game.... the list goes on.

sooooo.

[(XBOX)Ivan of Jupiter]

6 minutes ago, taiiat said:

well, i figured there might be cognitive discussion going on in here.
presumably about making playing more than one Rotation (or even a full Rotation tbh since atm you'd to half a Rotation) worth doing, for both Void Traces as well as Key Rewards. (so probably an increasing trend of awarding Reward again + a bit to make it worth doing over spending tons of time in a Loading Screen)

instead, i see people that have no idea what they're talking about, trying to prove their unfounded claims as correct.
whether that is trying to count how many Players there are, whether Digital Extremes plays Warframe, whether Digital Extremes 'listens' to them personally, trying to represent everybody despite having no sample data to suggest their views do, that personal item targets automatically represent what is healthy for a Video Game.... the list goes on.

sooooo.

I'm beginning to think no ones going to be happy with anything DE creates. And people are quick to dismiss feedback, even if it is reasonable stuff. Everyone has they're own thoughts and believes it's the gospel. At this point I think it might be better for DE to just revert the system back to the way it was. When that happens I'm sure many of the people that are against them at every turn will suddenly be begging for the relic system. 

Its sad honestly. It's a trend Ive been seeing as of late. Not just in Warframe, but gamers as a whole.

Game developing is a thankless job. People want a game. The devs make it and everyone tries to find all the faults in it. They want any and all reasons to tear it apart. It's almost like they WANT it to be a bad game. They want a reason to hate it.

Feedback is one thing. Saying that the developers don't know what they're doing, that they're killing their own game is another.

Idk, I'm kind of drunk. I get philosophical when I'm drunk.

[Firetempest]

Endless shouldn't have been a thing, there is always a end. It was rarely a test of combat ability, it was how efficient the reward harvest was with the least amount of effort. Builds that walked the most C rotations.

Fun is subjective. Sure some did enjoy high levels without/with cheeseing. But it was usually "fun" because you got 12+ prime parts for the effort, everyone knows the first 20 waves were boring as hell waiting for enemy level to catch up to your gear.

Without some sort of boon to the relics for additional waves. what's the point in making it harder for yourself? Requiring 4+ relics for a wave run doesn't matter to me. It's why should I bother doing them all at once?

It needs a different mechanic. Wave based missions need something new for relics instead of relying on  the same old system. Remember the earth poison reactor? It's was as difficult as the team decided with equipment. Just take the refinement of the relic and do an alert style wave count down to adjust drop chances. Say it's a reactor defense mission. The higher the relic refinement for the whole team, inceases the power to the generator, the greater the wave number to clear, but give larger boosts to rare drops overall for everyone at the end. Now the reactor idea is just one of many mission styles already available. DE needs to get their rear in gear for new game types instead of relying on the same "scale up per wave, reward at 5" forever and ever. Relics need something different.