Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[morningstar999]

1 minute ago, xFrostKnightx said:

Theres 2 frames, 1 (or 2) delux skins coming in less than 40 days and they have to fit everything they said they'd do this year. Dosn't look like the art team at de has time to spend working on a full cenematic clip, so it's not like it was unexpected. 

they even said in the dev stream by this year they mean before the next warframe anniversary. not the actual end of 2016 so the end of 'their year'. (making up rubbish much?) 

 

 

[DeathMavrik]

It was literally a still of a battle......i mean what they brought with nekros, vauban, and saryn this was unacceptable by comparison

[ShakeyMac]

2 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

Actually the Gersemi was revealed officially by DE as the true Valkyr before the Alad V experiments. So yeah, some lore was broken there.

OR!

Salad, being the brilliant (and insane) researcher he is, knew something the rest of us didn't know.  Which is to say that the initial version of Valkyr, the Primed variant, looked more like the "normal" Valkyr than the more refined Gersemi variant.  Given that Salad has had a lot of knowledge about stuff that even the Lotus isn't privy too, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that maybe he had some information relevant to Valkyr's "true" form that us Tenno did not have.

Here's how I see it:

Valkyr Prime is made.  It possesses such immense power that even the vaunted technology of the Orokin could not truly tame the creature they created, so they had to find a way to limit her power.  Enter the "arm restraints" that we see on Valkyr Prime, which function to restrain the power inherent in the frame and allow a Tenno to control it without being consumed by it (or something).

Time goes by and as experience from trial and error is gleaned, the Orokin are able to produce a more controllable, more stable version of Valkyr in the "Gersemi" model, sans restraints (maybe they're built into other aspects of the Gersemi suit, or maybe they're just unnecessary due to other technological advances).  Stuff happens, the Orokin empire is shattered, rocks fall and everyone dies, and we fast forward to the present day.

Salad gets ahold of the Gersemi Valkyr, and, in an effort to recreate the Primed variant that is the original source model for Valkyr, he experiments on the Gersemi and leaves it looking like the Valkyr that it is today.  But the process of the experimentation destroys the built-in restraints present on the Gersemi model, and thus we get our normal Valkyr with her restraining armcuffs (that don't seem to hinder her movement at all, almost like they aren't intended for any kind of actual physical restraint but instead function more in the role of a "power muffler" that keeps Valkyr's power in check).

Edited November 23, 2016 by ShakeyMac

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Manequin challenge at its finest....im impressed.

[xRufus7x]

2 hours ago, DoppelShifter said:

Her Gersemi skin suggested her true appearance before Alad V experimented with her. She had more "feline-like" features, different leg structure, clear claws, a tail and winglets (an allusion to Valkyries), along with a green color scheme that hints that the Zanuka armor is made from the Gersemi armor. This was supposed to fill a lore gap explaining what was the real appearance of the "standard" Valkyr before Alad V experimented with her.

....Valkyr Prime doesn't follow the Gersemi design, but the "Mangled" design. Which is lore-breaking. If Gersemi is her true stable form, why is the Prime version (a.k.a the first Valkyr) based on the mangled version, instead of the Gersemi, which was supposed to be the closest to her Prime?

That doesn't make sense.

Corpus are obsessed with Orokin technology and think of them as gods. It isn't a stretch to think that Alad V was trying to imitate the prime design as part of his experiments.

[xFrostKnightx]

Just now, morningstar999 said:

they even said in the dev stream by this year they mean before the next warframe anniversary. not the actual end of 2016 so the end of 'their year'. (making up rubbish much?) 

I appreciate your garbage reply with it's un-needed rubbish assumption.  (Learn some manners and deal with that attitude)

[-skimmer-]

Shh. We just might get an actual quest instead of trailer.

[DoppelShifter]

1 minute ago, ShakeyMac said:

OR!

Salad, being the brilliant (and insane) researcher he is, knew something the rest of us didn't know.  Which is to say that the initial version of Valkyr, the Primed variant, looked more like the "normal" Valkyr than the more refined Gersemi variant.  Given that Salad has had a lot of knowledge about stuff that even the Lotus isn't privy too, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that maybe he had some information relevant to Valkyr's "true" form that us Tenno did not have.

Here's how I see it:

Valkyr Prime is made.  It possesses such immense power that even the vaunted technology of the Orokin could not truly tame the creature they created, so they had to find a way to limit her power.  Enter the "arm restraints" that we see on Valkyr Prime.

Time goes by and as experience from trial and error is gleaned, the Orokin are able to produce a more controllable, more stable version of Valkyr in the "Gersemi" model, sans restraints (maybe they're built into other aspects of the Gersemi suit, or maybe they're just unnecessary due to other technological advances).  Stuff happens, the Orokin empire is shattered, rocks fall and everyone dies, and we fast forward to the present day.

Salad gets ahold of the Gersemi Valkyr, and, in an effort to recreate the Primed variant that is the original source model for Valkyr, he experiments on the Gersemi and leaves it looking like the Valkyr that it is today.  But the process of the experimentation destroys the built-in restraints present on the Gersemi model, and thus we get our normal Valkyr with her restraining armcuffs (that don't seem to hinder her movement at all, almost like they aren't intended for any kind of actual physical restraint but instead function more in the role of a "power muffler" that keeps Valkyr's power in check).

That's actually a good theory.

The problem is... we have to work with hard data here, otherwise we could work with theorycrafting here forever (like for example, that all Valkyrs had a tail but the Prime one had their tail cut and the "stump" protected by a gilded plate in order to give less "loose bits" to get hurt; or that the winglets were added later in the Gersemi to restore a bit of Prime's mobility).

But working with hard data, and looking at the design of all 3 valkyr bodies, what we have is this: Gersemi was ignored when designing Valkyr Prime, even though DE stated that Gersemi was her original form as restored by the Tenno (and then mangled by Alad V).

Based on what we know, the current Valkyr Prime is a lore inconsistency. And while the text in the Codex (still unreleased) and the trailer had the chance to fill that gap... so far, they didn't. The trailer doesn't have a single spoken word, and the Codex is yet to be released.

So... we're still with nothing. Just paradoxes and inconsistencies.

[DoppelShifter]

9 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

Corpus are obsessed with Orokin technology and think of them as gods. It isn't a stretch to think that Alad V was trying to imitate the prime design as part of his experiments.

This was covered before. The objectives of the experiments with Valkyr, as far as we canonically know, weren't "rebuilding Valkyr Prime", but working towards Zanuka Project. Anything else is pure speculation. And the inconsistencies here are based on hard data.

Edited November 23, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[PoobahTheGrand]

Just watched it and it was pretty weak

[morningstar999]

2 minutes ago, xFrostKnightx said:

I appreciate your garbage reply with it's un-needed rubbish assumption.  (Learn some manners and deal with that attitude)

not an assumption go re-watch the last devstream 

they said what they are classing as the end of their year as different to the end  of 2016. (either for anniversary or the end of their tax year) 

your the one being rude I just stated a fact. my 'making up rubbish' comment was a response to DE changing what they meant by the end of the year to this now. 

[ShakeyMac]

1 minute ago, DoppelShifter said:

This was covered before. The objective of the experiments with Valkyr, as far as we canonically know, weren't "rebuilding Valkyr Prime", but working towards Zanuka Project. Anything else is pure speculation. And the inconsistencies here are based on hard data.

While I understand your objections, I don't think "Zanuka Project" is a good enough reason here.  Salad has made it clear time and again that he, like the Honey Badger, has no F's to give, and thus he does what he wants, whenever he wants, regardless of what anyone else tells him.  It's totally in line with his character, and the character of most Corpus in general really, to attempt something "on the side" for their own personal gain or interest.  It also makes good sense to someone interested in Profit to have a "diverse portfolio."  Zanuka may have turned out to be a bust.  The smart businessman hedges his bets.  Even better when said hedging also furthers his personal interests.

[VisionAndVoice]

I liked it. Especially the moments with an impaled crewman (that looked like he was impaled on his own prova for a moment) and the scowling guy, who was actually sliced in half.

[DoppelShifter]

11 minutes ago, ShakeyMac said:

While I understand your objections, I don't think "Zanuka Project" is a good enough reason here.  Salad has made it clear time and again that he, like the Honey Badger, has no F's to give, and thus he does what he wants, whenever he wants, regardless of what anyone else tells him.  It's totally in line with his character, and the character of most Corpus in general really, to attempt something "on the side" for their own personal gain or interest.  It also makes good sense to someone interested in Profit to have a "diverse portfolio."  Zanuka may have turned out to be a bust.  The smart businessman hedges his bets.  Even better when said hedging also furthers his personal interests.

That's still entirely speculation. And like I said, we could make headcanon-crafting here all day (and personally I'd love to do that).

But we're discussing hard data and what we have as confirmed. And that points to inconsistencies that are yet to be filled -- if they'll ever be (maybe the Codex explains something, but at this point, I highly doubt it).

Which is a weird precedent, because Valkyr was the very first Warframe to have two distinct "normal" forms: the Mangled Valkyr that we get from the get go, and the Gersemi form, canonically stated to be her true form as restored by the Tenno and mangled by Alad V. And then she gets a Primed version and then a paradox: follow the "default" Mangled Form, or the canonically more "true to origin" Gersemi deluxe skin? And while the Gersemi seems to be the best option lore-wise, at least from all the information we have, the Valkyr Prime launched today follows the Mangled Valkyr, including details that originally pointed to consequences of her dissection (look at the legs and compare the gilded details; they follow the "stitched" add-ons from the Mangled form, instead of the fully armored and smooth form of the Gersemi).

TL;DR: Again, when working with hard data vs speculation and fanon theories, the current Valkyr Prime ignores Gersemi (and actually makes allusions to a FUTURE version of Valkyr), and thus is inconsistent with the Lore.

Edited November 23, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[xRufus7x]

11 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

This was covered before. The objectives of the experiments with Valkyr, as far as we canonically know, weren't "rebuilding Valkyr Prime", but working towards Zanuka Project. Anything else is pure speculation. And the inconsistencies here are based on hard data.

There are no inconsistencies when the lore is vague to begin with. We know Alad experimented on a Warframe, presumably to turn her into a weapon ultimately leading to Zanuka. We know nothing about the experiments he used or if he based it on Orokin technology but it is safe to assume that either he did or the Corpus tech just mimicked that of the Orokin by coincidence due to them being the closest technologically to them. Either way, it is hardly a glaring lore hole from which there is no return. It is pretty easily explained away.

[Shoelip]

58 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Let's gather all tenno together and picnic in the forests of earth :D

As long as we leave our tents and sleeping bags behind.

 

It's a cool trailer but... I really want a lore trailer.  Come on DE.  We need a lore trailer.  Please give us Valkyr lore fans some sort of consolation...

Edited November 23, 2016 by Shoelip

[ShakeyMac]

2 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

That's still entirely speculation. And like I said, we could make headcanon-crafting here all day (and personally I'd love to do that).

But we're discussing hard data and what we have as confirmed. And that points to inconsistencies that are yet to be filled -- if they'll ever be (maybe the Codex explains something, but at this point, I highly doubt it).

Which is a weird precedent, because Valkyr was the very first Warframe to have two distinct "normal" forms: the Mangle Valkyr that we get from the get go, and the Gersemi form, canonically stated to be her true form as restored by the Tenno and mangled by Alad V. And then she gets a Primed version and then a paradox: follow the "default" Mangled Form, or the canonically more "true to origin" Gersemi deluxe skin? And while the Gersemi seems to be the best option lore-wise, from all the information we have, the Valkyr Prime launched today follows the Mangled Valkyr, including details that originally pointed to consequences of her dissection (look at the legs and compare the gilded details; the follow the "stitched" add-ons from the Mangled form, instead of the fully armored and smooth form of the Gersemi).

TL;DR: Again, when working with hard data vs speculation and fanon theories, the current Valkyr Prime ignores Gersemi (and actually makes allusions to a FUTURE version of Valkyr), and thus is inconsistent with the Lore.

Much of what you're saying is "hard data" is also speculation.  No, I'm not saying that the visual details on Valkyr P are wrong or aren't what you say they are, but the conclusion you're drawing doesn't add up to me, simply because, like my conclusion, it requires a lot of logical leaps of faith.

I think the only thing I could confidently say is that there isn't enough information about what happened "between" each iteration of Valkyr to determine exactly what's going on.  Valkyr P may very well be incorrect from a lore standpoint, but the conclusion drawn saying it's incorrect is just as much speculation as the conclusion drawn saying that it's correct.  Both of us have a lot of blanks to fill in, and there are any number of reasons as to why my interpretation or yours could be correct.

Or, as Rufus puts it:

 

3 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

There are no inconsistencies when the lore is vague to begin with. We know Alad experimented on a Warframe, presumably to turn her into a weapon ultimately leading to Zanuka. We know nothing about the experiments he used or if he based it on Orokin technology but it is safe to assume that either he did or the Corpus tech just mimicked that of the Orokin by coincidence due to them being the closest technologically to them. Either way, it is hardly a glaring lore hole from which there is no return. It is pretty easily explained away.

 

[StinkyPygmy]

That's what is considered lore breaking these days? Dang, and here I thought this was gonna be another thread about why valkyr prime couldn't exist without breaking the lore.

[DoppelShifter]

2 minutes ago, xRufus7x said:

There are no inconsistencies when the lore is vague to begin with. We know Alad experimented on a Warframe, presumably to turn her into a weapon ultimately leading to Zanuka. We know nothing about the experiments he used or if he based it on Orokin technology but it is safe to assume that either he did or the Corpus tech just mimicked that of the Orokin by coincidence due to them being the closest technologically to them. Either way, it is hardly a glaring lore hole from which there is no return. It is pretty easily explained away.

Check my post directly above yours. Visually the Valkyr Prime follows some elements that are more clearly consequence of the dissection than actual original features (which we would still see on Gersemi if that was still the case).

I have yet to be able to freely look at the model, but I can already point to some:

- The legs have golden lines in the same spots where you'll find "stitched wires" in the Mangled Form. Absent in Gersemi.
- The spine has an open, spiky armor, pointing outside, just like the Mangled Form. In Gersemi, that armor is smoother and covers her electronics better.
- In the end of her spine, there's a gilded plate. In the Mangled Form, that same spot has a set of open sockets. In Gersemi, there's a tail there.
- Her chest armor is mostly open, asymmetrical and missing what would be actual closed armor plates, just like Mangled Form. Gersemi has a symmetrical, closed torso armor plating.
- There are "restraining bonds" on her gauntlets, analogue to the ones in the Mangled Form. Absent in Gersemi, since that form doesn't have gauntlets at all.

On top of that, winglets (present in Gersemi and compatible with the Valkyrie motif) are completely absent, without even a socket or protrusion that could suggest that Gersemi iterated on anything.

Analysing on a purely aesthetic standpoint, Prime points to Mangled, not to Gersemi. In fact, it seems to completely ignore Gersemi and make equivalences to visual aspects that point to post-mangling/experiments on the Mangled Valkur. And that is weird. 

[ShakeyMac]

2 minutes ago, DoppelShifter said:

Check my post directly above yours. Visually the Valkyr Prime follows some elements that are more clearly consequence of the dissection than actual original features (which we would still see on Gersemi if that was still the case).

I have yet to be able to freely look at the model, but I can already point to some:

- The legs have golden lines in the same spots where you'll find "stitched wires" in the Mangled Form. Absent in Gersemi.
- The spine has an open, spiky armor, pointing outside, just like the Mangled Form. In Gersemi, that armor is smoother and covers her electronics better.
- In the end of her spine, there's a gilded plate. In the Mangled Form, that same spot has a set of open sockets. In Gersemi, there's a tail there.
- Her chest armor is mostly open, asymmetrical and missing what would be actual closed armor plates, just like Mangled Form. Gersemi has a symmetrical, closed torso armor plating.
- There are "restraining bonds" on her gauntlets, analogue to the ones in the Mangled Form. Absent in Gersemi, since that form doesn't have gauntlets at all.

On top of that, winglets (present in Gersemi and compatible with the Valkyrie motif) are completely absent, without even a socket or protrusion that could suggest that Gersemi iterated on anything.

Analysing on a purely aesthetic standpoint, Prime points to Mangled, not to Gersemi. In fact, it seems to completely ignore Gersemi and make equivalences to visual aspects that point to post-mangling/experiments on the Mangled Valkur. And that is weird. 

Well, weird or not is a subjective statement.  But I'm not saying anything for or against that point; to each their own.

I will say this though; my experience with DE is that "rule of cool" seems to win out.  Lore aside, I think the designs for most frames were mostly about "man, wouldn't it be cool if...." and then they just rolled with it.  I mean, you have Nekros Prime with literal organs pulsing out of his midsection.  Not exactly "combat ready" in that department, but boy does it look awesome.

[DoppelShifter]

7 minutes ago, ShakeyMac said:

Well, weird or not is a subjective statement.  But I'm not saying anything for or against that point; to each their own.

I will say this though; my experience with DE is that "rule of cool" seems to win out.  Lore aside, I think the designs for most frames were mostly about "man, wouldn't it be cool if...." and then they just rolled with it.  I mean, you have Nekros Prime with literal organs pulsing out of his midsection.  Not exactly "combat ready" in that department, but boy does it look awesome.

That's the thing... they aim for consistency as well. Look at my very first post for examples, where I mentioned they reworked old weapons like the Burston, Boar and Lanka to better fit the theme of their respective factions.

So... I think this is a new precedent when it comes to "rule of cool" vs "hey, but you said otherwise before".

I'd say "now it's just wait and see", but... devs forget. There are oversights. If we don't point those out, they get ignored and/or pile up.

....Otherwise I'd never have started this thread to begin with.

[(PSN)GreSnake]

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Guys.  Rob talked to megan.  the one out rn is just a teaser.  the actual trailer is in the works still and will have ballas's voice in it.

[Doom_Bunny]

3 hours ago, Damuranashi said:

Alad V was trying to make the Gesemi Valkyr look like the Prime version when he experimented on her. There. I cannot believe you people are going insane over this.

- How does he know anything about the prime version? All he and everyone else appears to know is that the warframes destroyed the entire orokin civilization.

• "Yes, yes hurry, Tenno. But be careful, last time you got close with the Sentients you wiped out an entire civilization. But you don't remember that, do you?"

- We know the corpus have long life spans (Darvo) but neither that or being orokin (technically everyone is orokin) automatically excuse him of how he knows about Valkyr prime.

• "Damn it father, I'm almost 105 years old! I make my own choices!"

- Alad V's objective is clearly the Zanuka project. Why would he go about trying to restore Valkyr when he was learning from the experiments.

• "Found the Reservoir? Hm, as unpleasant as our past is, I have to ask; I've, uh, seen inside a Tenno, yes. And what I've found didn't make sense. Does this Reservoir conceal some great deception?"

It's disappointing DE haven't straightened out lore, fixed some ability problems, and the 100 armour buff doesn't help due the general state of scaling in Warframe.

[Gelkor]

I want to hear some more lore in Ballas' dulcet tones that make we want to punch him in the throat. I needs it.