Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[Stoner]

9 hours ago, arch111 said:

Thank you so much for the link! 

Aye, no problem. I just looked a bit in the Wiki. 

 

8 hours ago, (PS4)Oddreign said:

I think I have an answer as to why Valkyr Prime is the way she is.

Valkyr was shoved into the Void oven by DE and when she was done baking, they took her out and sold her for lots and lots of Money!

See? That lore is clear and simple :D in fact "Buy now" was the subliminal message embedded into the cheap Valkyr Prime trailer.

Could that mean.. all Primes are not Orokin design but... Digital Extremes design?? 

whoa

[SilentMobius]

On 12/2/2016 at 7:22 PM, Stoner74 said:

Also, from Devstream 53, "It's the pre-corpus captured Valkyr". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jz4DCz77xI&start=910&end=960

 

Just remember that the way this was intonated it was:

"It's the pre-corpus captured, Valkyr"

Again only showing precedence, not descent.

With what we knew before Valkyr Prime was it more likely that Valkyr Prime would have been based on the Gersemi mesh, sure, I've said as much myself.

Just like it was more likely that nova's design was part of the modern era from what we were told, but as we now know it was never stated as such and turns out to not be the case

However "more likely" isn't an explicit statement given what we have and what we were told it looks more likely that vanilla Valkyr is a vivisected prime. There are plenty of other options but we have an explicit statement of how primes come about an that doesn't allow for modern-era design of Primes nor does Valkyr Prime's flavour text allow her to have been modified since the Orokin Era.

So we are left with limited options.

[Cakeomaru]

An interesting perspective... If PRIME are to be represented as the first, therefore the original, then..:

Gersemi Valkyr Deluxe Skin may have been predated even before the Orokin Empire, just like the Excalibur Proto-Armor Skin, or Nyx Nemesis Armor.

Based on the in-game description of the Exclibur Proto-Armor Skin, it says:

Discovering the precise nature of this recently uncovered armored prototype has proved elusive. Initial attempts at dating point to ancient origins, perhaps even predating Orokin Empire.

 

so if the Proto armor were to exist first, then Excalibur Prime may have been inspired from the Proto-armor itself, then there goes the normal Excaliburs later on, right? We all know that the Proto Armor IS NOT a warframe, but rather an exoskeletal armor, that Hayden Tenno wears.

So let's look at Valkyr Prime. Valkyr Prime have some striking resemblance with normal experimented Valkyr, that it has lead to some people to think that it's a paradox, of how a Valkyr Prime may be actually based on the normal variant, where being PRIME is a statement of being the first. But WHAT IF:

Gersemi Valkyr also predates Orokin Empire? think of it as either the stone-aged warframe (That will create a contradiction to Excalibur's lore. Cuz Excalibur's the FIRST WARFRAME.). OR another exoskeleton armor, that just happens to be not shown in Dark Sector. So the Orokin Empire may have been inspired by this pristine-conditioned Gersemi 'armor' , and hence created their Valkyr Prime.

Then how would the normal Valkyr fare? Here's my speculation:

Corpus seem to have a vast amount knowledge about the Orokin Empire. I mean, look at Alad V, during the Second Dream Quest. He's been spouting lots of implications that he knew something, that players do not know (yet...) Probably from Orokin database, the Corpus may have obtained a schematic of the Valkyr Prime, and started on that. By capturing Warframes, and using their components, the Corpus have began experimenting, and trying to copy Valkyr Prime's design, with their Corpus Technology. Hence, creating Valkyr.

Corpus are technologically advanced, and to be able to create Zanuka, which is an enemy with Warframe components, that's quite impressive. Probably the Valkyr was one of their better experiments that went fluke, since Valkyr's a berserker-themed warframe, so ladelah, her appearance is similar to how Valkyr Prime appeared in the trailer.

Gersemi Valkyr >>> Valkyr Prime >>> Normal Valkyr

 

This is how would I approach it, IF we are considering Gersemi Valkyrs design to be part of the lore. Otherwise, disregard it, if it will just appear as canon, just like some other premium skins.

[NightmareT12]

You guys still steaming your brains out with this?

[MrM1]

1 hour ago, Cakeomaru said:

An interesting perspective... If PRIME are to be represented as the first, therefore the original, then..:

Primes are not always the ''first'' versions. Take Inaros or Titania as an example. They do not have a Prime lore-wise since they are already the very first ones.

1 hour ago, Cakeomaru said:

Gersemi Valkyr >>> Valkyr Prime >>> Normal Valkyr

Technically this might be the only explanation. This can also explain why Inaros and Titania don't have Primes

[arch111]

Hmm. This Prime.talk is confusing us all I think.

Is not Prime the definition of "Made by the Orokin in the Orokin Era" and not needing to be FIRST to exist.

I think the idea of a proto first and Prime later sounds perfect - that is the way it is done.

We can divide warframes into,

Proto, Prime, Tenno reproduction and special edition.

No doubt Rhino served as Temple Gards and only those used that series. We can only guess what a Rhino Proto looked like though.

Titania proves that Primes came second allso. Does not rule out a Prime made after though.

It's a Interesting point of view.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Well I guess you wouldn't waste all that bling on prototypes and dev builds. The regular frames would be proof of concept and the primes just the presentation piece to the Orokin.

Of course now we know about transference etc its much more likely that the primes were just in fact "dress uniforms", the warframes that were piloted when around the Orokin. They wouldn't want dirty, nasty, battle scarred frames wandering around their perfect palaces would they? The ones on lua and other Orokin bases would have to fit the decor.

[ArcariusAero]

10 hours ago, arch111 said:

-snip-

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It'd clear up the Valkyr Prime issue too.

[DoppelShifter]

On 12/4/2016 at 1:09 PM, Cakeomaru said:

An interesting perspective... If PRIME are to be represented as the first, therefore the original, then..:

Gersemi Valkyr Deluxe Skin may have been predated even before the Orokin Empire, just like the Excalibur Proto-Armor Skin, or Nyx Nemesis Armor.

Based on the in-game description of the Exclibur Proto-Armor Skin, it says:

Discovering the precise nature of this recently uncovered armored prototype has proved elusive. Initial attempts at dating point to ancient origins, perhaps even predating Orokin Empire.

 

so if the Proto armor were to exist first, then Excalibur Prime may have been inspired from the Proto-armor itself, then there goes the normal Excaliburs later on, right? We all know that the Proto Armor IS NOT a warframe, but rather an exoskeletal armor, that Hayden Tenno wears.

That's the thing, the Proto-Armor is a cameo from Dark Sektor, with a flavour text tailored towards "not being so immersion-breaking". Same thing for the Nyx Nemesis armor. They're cameos, intended for being a nod to the spiritual predecessor to Warframe; the game which changed so much that eventually became Dark Sektor.

We just can't assume out of nowhere that Gersemi (or any other skin or warframe) will have the same lore, especially considering where the main story from the quests is taking us: it's a story about the current Warframes, reminiscent of the fall of the Orokin, and how what happened during that conflict is impacting the balance of power up until now.

...Simultaneously exploring open windows for stuff from before the Orokin Empire (aside from the aforementioned nods to Dark Sektor) is basically plot suicide. Too many spots to try to cover at the same time, which ends in none of them actually making total sense.

As for the rest of the discussion,

For some reason the Forum stopped giving me automatic updates on this thread, but anywho.

We do indeed have strong suggestions that the Primes were the first of their respective kinds, back from the Orokin wars (against the Infested and against the Sentient). This is emphasized by the flavour text in the Excalibur Prime, the fact that the components are only found in Orokin-related content (while the other frames have their components found in more recent and closer conflict zones; ranging from other conflicts involving the Tenno to the far more recent experiments by Alad V with two warframes he found: Gersemi Valkyr and Mesa), and even by offhand comments here and there during Devstreams and such. So if Primes are not the first warframes to enter war-time production, then we'll need some very important plot-point to justify that, because the current lore (including stuff found in Second Dream and War Within) suggest this path.

As for Gersemi and Prime stuff... look, DE_Steve even mentioned that they considered making a Gersemi Prime skin, but eventually scrapped the idea (that's in a tweet linked somewhere in this huge thread). So Gersemi is definitely a post-Orokin-war thing.

Actually, the bit of information that generated the most "lore breaching" stuff was the Valkyr timeline, cemented during Devstreams 53 and 83: "Gersemi is Valkyr before the Zanuka experiments" and "Valkyr Prime had her visual design inspired in the 'mangled' Valkyr instead of Gersemi, which DE_Steve mentioned that would raise lore challenges, but DE_Sheldon said they were working on it".

The biggest problem is: we never saw anything else coming after that. Not even the Ballas-narrated trailer that some players commented that was in the works.

Until DE mentions something official, debating theories won't get us anywhere. ...Although leaving the subject in silence might as well end up leaving this lore hole open (since "it's not being much of an issue right now, since little people are complaining"), and that's a big problem, specially for continuity.

...and as for this:

 

On 12/4/2016 at 4:42 PM, arch111 said:

Titania proves that Primes came second allso. Does not rule out a Prime made after though.

...That's the thing... it doesn't prove.

Titania, Inaros and some other quest-related Warframes seem to suggest that they were active during the Orokin War (with the Titania quest explicitly stating that the Titania prototype was brought to the Silver Grove, and it was destroyed soon after).

Though both of these quests also suggest a return at a later time, before the current Operator comes there to make the quest. Which kinda puts a wrench into this "first and untouched" thing about those specific frames.
It's more likely that the ones in the beginning of such stories were Primes, or incomplete prototypes which already had a Prime version developed by the Orokin, and the blueprints that we get are either engineered by "filling blanks the best way we can", generating a non-Prime out of a "broken Prime", or because the blueprints we get were actually from after the Orokin War, made after that warframe was studied and one or more operators with it returned in a "tenno" variety of the frame (the first seems more plausible with Titania, while the second seems more plausible with Inaros).

But that's us crawling to another lore discussion altogether: "Were Primes really the first of their kind?" and "Are the quest-given warframes Prime-based?"

Those two questions not only stray away from what's being debated here (especially considering that THIS thread started as an amalgamation of Warframe Feedback threads complaining about Valkyr Prime and that the Forum Mods merged here), and actually deserve their own threads discussing that in depth, but that also doesn't give any insight or help about the Valkyr Lore issue:

- DE said Gersemi was the original form of the mangled "Vanilla" Valkyr (DevStream53)
- DE said that Valkyr Prime was visually inspired by the Vanilla Valkyr (DS83)
- DE said that they are aware that this raises lore issues (DS83)
- DE said they are working on that (DS83)
- ...DE so far said nothing more about it.

So we basicaly keep the outcry (especially during the next Devstream) and wait for a more direct answer from DE (because I think they were quoted, messaged, linked and poked enough about this subject, so they know about it).

Edited December 6, 2016 by DoppelShifter

[Stoner]

It now has been 2 weeks, 2 weeks since they said they were working on a narrated trailer. 2 weeks and still nothing. Not a single word from them. I don't know about you all, but I'm getting worried. 

[Yrveth]

22 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

I don't know about you all, but I'm getting worried. 

I kinda got over it around Thursday I guess. It clearly doesn't work to care more about the lore than... well, to care, in general, about it. If nothing interesting comes out of that Ballas trailer, I won't be upset at all.

[arch111]

1 hour ago, Stoner74 said:

It now has been 2 weeks, 2 weeks since they said they were working on a narrated trailer. 2 weeks and still nothing. Not a single word from them. I don't know about you all, but I'm getting worried. 

I really see Valkyr as a battle-suit made for real WAR. Not like Vauban who was like a policeagent against the merchants, not like Saryn who fought against the Infestation on Earth. Not like Nekros who was sent out to spread fear among the tribes.

But like Excalibur, Mirage and Mag - all made for the war.

"A proud warrior emerges, unspoiled by time or malice."

Unless DE have some fresh Lore to give us, I expect Ballas to talk about her nature and brutality.

 

[Stoner]

12 hours ago, arch111 said:

I really see Valkyr as a battle-suit made for real WAR. Not like Vauban who was like a policeagent against the merchants, not like Saryn who fought against the Infestation on Earth. Not like Nekros who was sent out to spread fear among the tribes.

But like Excalibur, Mirage and Mag - all made for the war.

"A proud warrior emerges, unspoiled by time or malice."

Unless DE have some fresh Lore to give us, I expect Ballas to talk about her nature and brutality.

 

 

13 hours ago, Belgard said:

I kinda got over it around Thursday I guess. It clearly doesn't work to care more about the lore than... well, to care, in general, about it. If nothing interesting comes out of that Ballas trailer, I won't be upset at all.

They better have some new lore, because they said themselves lore was an issue with Valk prime. If nothing comes out of that trailer, nothing new, I'm going to be extremely pissed...

[Zendadaist]

Didn't someone from DE post all over their Facebook comments that they were finishing up an actual Lore trailer to explain? What happened with that?

[Yrveth]

They posted on the forum too, two weeks ago, and that's last we heard about it. Though they didn't explicitly say it will explain anything. At least not here, maybe on Facebook they did.

[Stoner]

The devstream thread is up if anyone has questions about that. 

16 hours ago, Zendadaist said:

Didn't someone from DE post all over their Facebook comments that they were finishing up an actual Lore trailer to explain? What happened with that?

Nothing so far, they said they we're working on one. That's about it.

[Othergrunty]

If it's okay i like to throw in a suggestion for a little change to Valkyr's lore that could explain the whole mess of the story.

Basicly i would slightly adjust Valkyr's story into being a frankensteinian monster creation from the Corpus experiments, rather than a mutilated prisoner.

The idea being that the Corpus tried to assemble a Valkyr Warframe, using bits and pieces they found, rather than tearing a version of Valkyr appart. This would also explain why the Tenno would end up copying THAT Valkyr for their regular model.*

Think of it this way. The Corpus found parts of a Valkyr Prime and a Valkyr Gersemi, then they tried to assemble a full one from it. Resulting in the body mostly being the Prime and the head having pieces of the Gersemi. Still missing a few parts they used their own technology as substitute. So the things in the arms, aren't restraints, they are crude replacements.

This would also play into what Infested Alad V. did with an "empty" Mesa Warframe. The original plan having been to finish a Valkyr and then try to controll it with the same technology that allowed Zanuka to have Warframe abilities. The Corpus allready knew how to create their own void keys. So it's not too much of a stretch to think, they also knew how to draw energy from the Void.

So Alad had Zanuka made from Warframe parts, perhaps including the rest of the Gersemi parts, using a Corpus made void key (ala how Vor got empowered) to power it and the controll collar to give it commands. His plan was then to use the same tech to power and controll a fully finished Warframe. Meanwhile the mostly "assembled" Valkyr accidently got connected to a Tenno who used it to rampage it out of the lab.

Seeing how Valkyr always striked me as inspired by Weapon X Wolverine, this would fit.

Later while Infested but not quite consumed, Alad actualy pulled the trick off with the Mesa. Perhaps now having greater understanding of the Infestation (which the Warframe bodies are based on).

*This speculation is based around the idea that the Primes are not the prototypes, but the first MP model, with both the regular and the Primes being based on the same Prototype. The original Valkyr prototype and her plans having been lost. So Tenno had to use the Corpus assembled one as new basis.

[arch111]

Just realized what Valkyr Prime is. A bat. I saw a colorscheme of grey, white and purple.and I saw it.

It looks like a Onaqui, a monster in the deep djungle that feed off the hears of its victims.

[Stoner]

Sooo, nothing about Valkyr prime in the devstream. That's very disappointing.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Stoner74 said:

Sooo, nothing about Valkyr prime in the devstream. That's very disappointing.

They said that they are making the vid but people already left for vacation so it's going to take longer. And it involves a corpus tileset. Which makes me afraid.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

They said that they are making the vid but people already left for vacation so it's going to take longer. And it involves a corpus tileset. Which makes me afraid.

Oh really? I haven't watched the devstream, I asked one of my clanmates if they talked about Valkyr prime. 

Corpus tileset huh? Well, that probably means a post corpus prime.  I don't like that. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Stoner74

[Apoc001]

12 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

Corpus tileset huh? Well, that probably means a post corpus prime.  I don't like that. 

not at all what it meant, they simply mentioned that the vid was giving the animation department an opportunity to touch up some corpus tilesets

[TARINunit9]

On 11/18/2016 at 9:50 AM, Cyborg-Rox said:

but then how come Valkyr Prime looks nothing like the Gersemi skin

In my eye she's a closer match than I thought at first

Legs are IDENTICAL, arms are a very close match (the things on Gersemi's and Prime's elbows), and the Prime's torso, while clearly modified, is closer to Gersemi than to Valkyr

The biggest departure is the helmet, which is a very close match to Valkyr's unbroken helmet, which I don't see any real issue with

[Apoc001]

11 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Legs are IDENTICAL

you may want to look again......harder..

[Stoner]

26 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In my eye she's a closer match than I thought at first

Legs are IDENTICAL, arms are a very close match (the things on Gersemi's and Prime's elbows), and the Prime's torso, while clearly modified, is closer to Gersemi than to Valkyr

The biggest departure is the helmet, which is a very close match to Valkyr's unbroken helmet, which I don't see any real issue with

I don't see where you see more Gersemi than og. Legs identical? Please compare both models. The prime legs are identical to the original Valkyr. As well as the arms, back and her overall shape. The only thing they took from Gersemi is the torso that extends to her knees.. Which makes me think they just put that there to hide the corpus bits.