Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

So... back to Press 4 to win? I'm confused how they "did it before". Ash is much better than he was before.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

So... back to Press 4 to win? I'm confused how they "did it before". Ash is much better than he was before.

I meant other reworks of other frames, like Excalibur, Nekros, and Limbo. Really balanced now(Limbo after the nerf). Also fun to play. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I was saying that Bladestorm is a really boring, and should have more interactivity.

[rafacasper]

Unless you are at high level content, you can´t lock the aim on more than one enemy before releasing bladestorm. The other teamates kill the enemies much faster than the time required for an Ash lock down more than one enemy.

[MudShadow]

I think after the nerf the only decent build ASH has is duration/efficiency based stealth+seeking shuriken. And that's the problem with ASH and many other Warframes. They have no synergy between their four abilities, which means players end up modding for one or two abilities. And spamming one or two moves (and that's it). 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

16 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

 

 

Given the fact that what my rework really does is cleaning up his kit and make it more refined and focused then yeah i think he needs it.

BTW that "Armor redution" thing... rememeber you can only hit one enemy at a time and you need a bunch of Power Strenght (43% says the wiki) for it to rip it right away. I feel all you just said would be better done my my version of Ash.

 

 

2, basicly beein a spammable, allmost free cast. And that's really just intensify+power drift.

And i'm not saying it's bad, especially the whole melee attack thing would do him a lotta good, but i still ask you, does he need it as it stands? playing him with mentioned melee setup, using rising storm and just sliding from time to time allready gives the desired results, does it not?

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[BansheePrime]

Latching onto that exalted weapon idea like a big ol' leech that just won't let go, he could either throw his daggers or always to be able to perform finishers on targets in melee with them. Make it so DE!

Edited April 26, 2017 by maj.death

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

Though you have given me an idea for an Armor Shred Augment.

I'm eager to see what you come up with.

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

- Explosive Kunai is ment to be a crowd control power. it will knock down all enemies in the explosion's range, couple that with Hidden Blade's instant kill on finishers and you got a resipe for DEATH..

Wait, do Hidden Blade/Blade Storm's 'ground finishers' also get the instagib feature? It's hard to tell since when people talk about finishers they only count 'Stealth' and 'Counter' finishers, often ignoring 'Gound' finishers.

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

- Springboard Dropkick, like Explosive Kunai, is ment to be serve a diferent purpose. Base Ashiko is for takedowns and traverse through the battlefield quickly while the Dropkick is more to aid in melee combat.

Understood. Tho "aid in melee combat" sounds more like you are actively engaging the enemy (and he is attacking you too) which means the removal of Stealth takedowns on unalerted enemies still a thing to argue.

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

- The healing augment is more about that more spiritual side of Ninjas, wich is why i called it Incense. Its ment to be a small boost to keep allies going and maybe making the healer's job easier.

Well, ninjas have buddhist roots so it's okay. Still rather weak outside of low-mid level missions as the enemy damage output is just too big for 125hp every two seconds to make a difference. Perhaps change it to a % of the player's health? Like 10% of the player's health healed every 2s? That way it scales with your allies and would be equally good for a Loki or Inaros.

4 minutes ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

- Remember that this rework is purely for PvE since PvP balance is still on the works so im not messing with that.

Yeah I know, though I would specify in the case of PvE/PvP stuff. As I said, it's not that the effect is bad with the Viral proc, but the damage is just too much, applying only the Viral proc would be enough in PvP. Could also have some visual indicator, like the cloud being subtle one by default but changing to full mustard-gas visible cloud when the augment is applied.

 

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

1 minute ago, rafacasper said:

Unless you are at high level content, you can´t lock the aim on more than one enemy before releasing bladestorm. The other teamates kill the enemies much faster than the time required for an Ash lock down more than one enemy.

 

1 minute ago, MudShadow said:

I think after the nerf the only decent build ASH has is duration/efficiency based stealth+seeking shuriken. And that's the problem with ASH and many other Warframes. They have no synergy between their four abilities, which means players end up modding for one or two abilities. And spamming one or two moves (and that's it). 

Exactly. The nerf just made him worse imo. He's not a bad frame by any means, seeking shuriken is really good, but he needs for all of his abilities to work together well and not be so boring. It's not fun to try to mark enemies on console, and when you manage to, it just puts you in a vomit-inducing cutscene. It's a shame really. 

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

5 minutes ago, maj.death said:

Latching onto that exalted weapon idea like a big ol' leech that just won't let go, he could either throw his daggers or always to be able to perform finishers on targets in melee with them. Make it so DE!

Good ideas! I do hope they look at him again. Throwing daggers would be pretty badass.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)LastDoomKnight

[elitetrollz]

Spam melee attack while in Bladestorm animation to get faster melee speed (just a suggestion)

[ShadowStalker]

1 minute ago, elitetrollz said:

Spam melee attack while in Bladestorm animation to get faster melee speed (just a suggestion)

that does not make sense? the animation of bladestorm is based on your melee attack speed Mods 

Edited April 26, 2017 by ShadowStalker

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

. Although DE said they wanted to get rid of the bladestorm animations, they didnt? 

Did they tho? Or was there just this Ryu Hayabusa Ash fanboy cult that claimed they would after pushing this strange Ryu Hayabusa themed Exalted ability Bladestorm original concept for months?

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ShadowStalker]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

Ok, I'm really not over how much of a dissapointment the Ash rework was. Although DE said they wanted to get rid of the bladestorm animations, they didnt? Like, why? Bladestorm really should be an exalted weapon ability that synergies with his other abilities(lots of great ideas on ash revisited thread). Why can't DE give him a rework that is solid, balanced, and most of all engaging and fun for ash? They've done it before with other frames, and in time I hope they look at him again.

I have been saying the same thing for ages but for now let DE Focus on The really Weak Frames then i really REALLY hope DE Changes Bladestrom to make it Strong and Different

[Neightrix]

42 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

So... back to Press 4 to win? I'm confused how they "did it before". Ash is much better than he was before.

Blade Storm is worse. Here's why:

1. Locking onto enemies takes time, especially if you want to hit each more than once. Any time spent doing this is slower than just tapping a button.
2. Ash used to share targets with his clones, he attacked about every 4th enemy. Now he has to attack every single enemy himself with clones only doing follow ups.

The only way the old Blade Storm was slower was if any enemies lived and Ash still had attacks remaining, such as getting "stuck" on an Ancient. That could have been fixed by allowing the player to stop. Now you can kill enemies faster with weapons, especially melee.

The change to Smokescreen was totally on point, no complaints about that.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Neightrix

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

2, basicly beein a spammable, allmost free cast. And that's really just intensify+power drift.

And i'm not saying it's bad, especially the whole melee attack thing would do him a lotta good, but i still ask you, does he need it as it stands? playing him with mentioned melee setup, using rising storm and just sliding from time to time gives the same results, does it not?

Yes. His abilities are just clunky at best. Yes he does need a rework. Its kinda like Excalibur: You didnt knew he needed THAT many changes until he got em.

 

5 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Wait, do Hidden Blade/Blade Storm's 'ground finishers' also get the instagib feature? It's hard to tell since when people talk about finishers they only count 'Stealth' and 'Counter' finishers, often ignoring 'Gound' finishers.

Yes they do.

 

7 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Understood. Tho "aid in melee combat" sounds more like you are actively engaging the enemy (and he is attacking you too) which means the removal of Stealth takedowns on unalerted enemies still a thing to argue.

Thats the point. Kinda like you use your fav melee weapon, beating people down with a hammer or something, using Shuriken to keep the combo counter up while you aproach and suddenly there is a bunch of enemies in front of you so you use Springboard Dropkick to push the main lancer against all his friends, knocking them down giving you plenty of time to bring the hammer down on them.

WHile Ashiko is more calculated Dropkick is more active and crowd oriented.

 

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, ninjas have buddhist roots so it's okay. Still rather weak outside of low-mid level missions as the enemy damage output is just too big for 125hp every two seconds to make a difference. Perhaps change it to a % of the player's health? Like 10% of the player's health healed every 2s? That way it scales with your allies and would be equally good for a Loki or Inaros.

Actually i have been thinking about it and what if it not just heals friendlies it also increases incoming healing? So Smoke cloud would be a tiny heal that also boost the healer's healing.

 

12 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Yeah I know, though I would specify in the case of PvE/PvP stuff. As I said, it's not that the effect is bad with the Viral proc, but the damage is just too much, applying only the Viral proc would be enough in PvP. Could also have some visual indicator, like the cloud being subtle one by default but changing to full mustard-gas visible cloud when the augment is applied.

I dont really wanna mess with PvP balance since DE is changing the modding system and if im correct they will probably make it more like the PvP mods (wich would be cool, like those mods that switches damage types around or those that increase HP for reduced Shields). So im saving it for later and focusing on the main issues.

For the effects it does have a respective effect represented on the picture under the ability suggestion, its one of the last drawings on the pic.

 

 

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

All they changed on excal was this one ability that basicly made him jump tho, in a time where his unchanged javelins have been THE dps ability.

Now he's a glass cannon that, after beein nerfex back and forth, needs to be in melee range to perform.

Was it worth it? Ash on the other side is the best frame to make use of this broken OP Maiming strike synergy gaining extra slash regardless while he's able to spam armor away.

A++ performance in all ranges, not exactly what i'd call bad.

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Did they tho? Or was there just this Ryu Hayabusa Ash fanboy cult that claimed they would after pushing this strange Ryu Hayabusa themed Exalted ability Bladestorm original concept for months?

They did say they want to change the cutscenes in one of the devstreams, and I'm not even a huge fan of ash, Volt's my favorite. I was just putting out ideas for a different bladestorm because it's a really boring ability. It doesn't have to be exalted, I'm just hoping for a more interactive ability. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by (PS4)LastDoomKnight

[Trichouette]

41 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Ash is much better than he was before.

He is better in my opinion but it's still AWFUL.

Why ?  Because cutscenes ARE NOT FUN

It's not even a QTE, you're just watching your frame do the work, how boring is that

Edited April 26, 2017 by Trichouette

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

14 minutes ago, ShadowStalker said:

I have been saying the same thing for ages but for now let DE Focus on The really Weak Frames then i really REALLY hope DE Changes Bladestrom to make it Strong and Different

I agree. While ash is pretty low on the list to be looked at, I do want to see them look at him again someday. 

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

All they changed on excal was this one ability that basicly made him jump tho, in a time where his unchanged javelins have been THE dps ability.

Now he's a glass cannon that, after beein nerfex back and forth, needs to be in melee range to perform.

Was it worth it? Ash on the other side is the best frame to make use of this broken OP Maiming strike synergy gaining extra slash regardless while he's able to spam armor away.

I dunno his Radial Javelin is intact but is his three now, same with his Radial Blind, Slash dash is cooler and now he has a large ANIMEEEEEE Energy Sword that shoots energy waves and create mini-Blinds you tell me.

[Nazrethim]

Also, Excalibur didn't get his RJ to cost 200-600% more energy than before while taking forever to actually hit all targets.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

33 minutes ago, Neightrix said:

Blade Storm is worse. Here's why:

1. Locking onto enemies takes time, especially if you want to hit each more than once. Any time spent doing this is slower than just tapping a button.
2. Ash used to share targets with his clones, he attacked about every 4th enemy. Now he has to attack every single enemy himself with clones only doing follow ups.

The only way the old Blade Storm was slower was if any enemies lived and Ash still had attacks remaining, such as getting "stuck" on an Ancient. That could have been fixed by allowing the player to stop. Now you can kill enemies faster with weapons, especially melee.

The change to Smokescreen was totally on point, no complaints about that.

BladeStorm got worst, but I'd say it's for the best?

The usual "Press 4 to win BladeStorm for days" was what everyone built Ash for since it was easy to spam and a powerful Nuke. There was no reason not to build for it.
With BladeStorm out of the way, his first three skills along with their augments now shine at their rightful place.

One intensify is enough to strip any enemies of 100% of their armor,
invisibility is always welcome anywhere since it kinda increase you survivability by a lot,
Finisher on Teleport does an amazing job at killing things at almost any level.

I find Ash to be "Better" than before the rework as well since he's now Game Friendly while being a good addition to the team.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

25 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Also, Excalibur didn't get his RJ to cost 200-600% more energy than before while taking forever to actually hit all targets.

i think you missed a Quote there

 

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Guess i will just leave this here

May be related in same way i dunno

[Loobiz]

1 hour ago, ShadowStalker said:

that does not make sense? the animation of bladestorm is based on your melee attack speed Mods 

It does make sense and it's a great idea. You target ONE guy, while in animation you start tapping E, the faster you do it the wider the spread of your abillity until a max of enemies cap by range mods for example. @elitetrollz