Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, notHunky said:

Yeah... I already don't play ash much since his kit for the most part is underwhelming against some of the more tougher enemies later on in the game. Bladestorm was probably one of his only abilities which acted somewhat like crowd control while dealing tons of damage, and this rework is just a straight nerf to that ability. I think you guys should roll back these changes until a better rework can be implemented; I mean a complete rework to his kit with better synergy added between all his abilities like how Frost, Saryn, and Excalibur were all changed.

I agree 100%. And there are some brilliant reworks DE could implement. IDC if they take a year to do it.

[Dastorious]

Ash Is my main, and ash been my main since a few days after his release (original ash, not prime)
I feel like this frame has been nerfed for no actual reason- when there were so many other things about his only useful ability (bladestorm) to be reworked.
the ability was special and fun to use- and the only two changes required for it were that team mates could still hit the enemies that are targeted by the bladestorm, and to fix the weird and uncoordinated camera views of the strikes created by using the skill.
The thing that this rework turned ash into an highly uneffective and quite useless warframe- which takes more time and energy (energy both in game and IRL) to use and just make him a whole lot worst. 
Plus, all the build I had for ash, and i guess lots of other players who mained him as well have to change now, because we can't just keep on building for damage when we need to build for so much efficiency and max mana as well. ash just wold become way more vulnerable and at the same time way more ineffective without benefiting the players around him or the players that actually play HIM.
As a suggestion i feel many would agree- have ash's blade storm send his clones kill his enemies, while- others could still hit enemies as well, and let ash run freely! it would solve the problem of being stuck for whole minutes in a slideshow of motion sickness and the problem of other team mates not being able to hit the enemies!
Having ash, and just recently getting my ash prime was my main reason for staying in warframe. I am deeply depressed by the fact that my warframe now has been ruined.
I hope that this change is at least reversed- because with  this update i have top leave warframe until it does.
@[DE]Danielle I hope one of you will listen and have ash good and useful once again! :D

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dastorious

[MontyOG]

The Rework:

shuriken - change to a dual mode ability similar to ivara or vauban's first ability however to change the mode it would be holding down the key. 1st form is the shuriken. 2nd for would be caltrops that slow enemies and deal damage over time to enemies within the area.

 

smoke screen - change to a stun bomb or an aoe throwable that reduces accuracy of enemies (or a poison bomb or something idk)

 

teleport - i say incorporate lethal teleport into it where you do a finisher however maybe reduce the damage multiplier so it isnt a guaranteed 1 shot in some mobs (dunno how to make this non op with the dagger mod) OR make it a distance teleport and not a targeted one.

 

blade storm - rename to "assassin's touch" (or something along those lines) basically this is a buff when active that doubles the energy cost of the next ability cast but has a different effect as the following.

shuriken - basically a micro mesa ult that throws A SINGLE shuriken at all enemies on screen marking them. the next teleport you cast on a marked enemy does what we know as the current blade storm but not as op in damage terms. maybe does a percentage of their max health (something along the lines of 20 or 30%) while applying a given proc depending on the faction, viral of infested, corrosive for grineer, magnetic for corpus. the procs last scale to ability duration, this way there is a way to use ash as a debuffer and not straight damage.

smoke screen - as well as the stun/poison effect, you go invisible for a somewhat considerable amount of time (broken with your next instance of damage applied to an enemy with a damage multiplier but nothing extreme) as well as spawning a clone that will distract enemies and attack with a damage multiplier like 0.5 or something.

teleport:

IF USING ON MARKED ENEMIES (from the charged shuriken) turns into an aoe around a target that basically turns into the old blade storm HOWEVER instead of watching the repetitive long animation, your camera stays in the position of casting and you see ash go at like mach 5 speed between targets so per target you see ash just dashing between them taking like 0.2 second (ash would also be in a 'smoke like' energy form that is what ever your energy colour is)

IF NOT USING ON MARKED ENEMIES then teleport turns into a blink strike basically, which would then drop caltrops around the enemy in a 10m radius (idk the exact balanced distances) 

 

Personal Input 

TLDR: THis concept makes ash in the higher leveled missions a debuffer and micro CC frame.

I love ash, i like the concept of just an assassin in general, it's generally speaking the class i gravitate towards on most games. However, i think that Ash right now is simply designed as the 'every button helps you kill more sh*t' frame, which i don't think assassins should be generally speaking. For ME assassins should, yes, be capable of high dps, or burst damage, however i also think that with the 'ninja' theme of Ash, other tools, techniques that were used by assassins of that time (and the romanticized versions), could be incorporated into the game that not only allows ash to deal high amounts of burst damage, but also be used as crowd control, or weakening the enemy so that it makes it a lot easier to kill high leveled mobs. The premise of this concept is basically, Ash is going to be extremely good at kill lower level trash mobs with his aoe abilities, while in higher levels, Ash changes from a be all end all damage frame that kills everything, into a debuffer and semi CC frame that is good at simply debuffing large groups of enemies, while dealing a moderate amount of damage. I also think that this may help other frames that may not get used much in certain situations, become more viable as this Ash rework would make abilities that don't scale well into the higher level mission more viable.

Important:

Firstly, some of these ability rework ideas are not mine, the shuriken rework for example came from someone Quite Shy showed in her 'Ash is dead' video, and im sure some of these ideas have been said in the past, I am not claiming that these are my ideas, these are just a bunch of different ability reworks, some i have seen some i haven't, that i think would make ash more than just a mob killer. If there is an reworked ability idea that seems like i copied it, i don't intend to copy it, and i don't know where it came from so i can't give credit where it is due.

Final notes:

I think the current Ash 'rework' (implemented in 19.1.0 i think, as well as alongside the Ash deluxe 'koga' skin, which i have to say i love if anyone from DE is reading this) however, i don't think that it was quite enough of a change to be called a rework, to me at least it just felt like a tweak, which i know quite a few other people feel the same. I am however not an idiot, i know that reworking a single ability must take a literal ton of work, spanning days, weeks, maybe even months let alone all abilities on a warframe. this concept that i have presented is extremely different (in terms of coding and mechanics) and would likely take a long &#! time to do, and since DE has just spent a month or so creating the recent Ash rework, i highly doubt they want to do another one straight after, if at all and i'm fine with that, i like Ash and i have always liked Ash, he is my favourite frame, this whole essay essentially has simply been provided as my personal opinion on what i would like to see IF DE decides to do ANOTHER rework.

Thank you for reading :)

[Xianos_Chaos]

The rework is a piece of crap in my opinion.

Skill 1. Nothing change but still good.

Skill 2. Didn't change my feelings for it since when you cast Smoke Screen, enemies around you get a second stunning.

Skill 3. I don't think this was needed but meh.

Skill 4. Piece of crap Mesa's line of sight is terrible, literally now people instead of pressing 4 and killing, now people press 4, have a seizure in your hand, and press 4 again. It's honestly terrible, but like Azamagon suggest, the ability perhaps better flow if it were more like Nekros' new desecrate where you toggle it on and have this aoe around you to mark enemes, then press 4 again to bladestorm, that would put more interactive flow of you getting into enemies line of sight while not have to worry about scanning them three times to mark or have seizures with your mouse.

[Xianos_Chaos]

31 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Bladestorm

I honestly like it better now, but it is indeed a bit slow. So, to help alleviate that:

* Make the mark per enemy cost 10 energy by default. The synergy with Smoke Screen is already there (it's great to use it before starting to mark).

* While marking, in a small/moderate radius around Ash, enemies are automarked (Natural Teleport synergy!). Note: If that's too "easy", at least make the AoE-marking occur in an area around Ash where he lands after using Teleport during the marking mode (not as natural, but at least some decent synergy)

* While marking, Ash could gain an added special crosshair-ring (default size about the same as the total current crosshair, if drawn as a circle). Any enemy seen in this ring is marked. Crosshair's size is modded by P.Range!

What you describe was like Nekros' new desecrate ability for which I agree with, this would bring more flow of marking enemies while not having to worry about that line of sight crap.

[notHunky]

I already posted this in the feedback thread but will leave this here just in case. I think a few CC effects and team oriented benefits could go a long way with this frame for a quick fix.

Shuriken: Load the default non-augmented Shuriken ability with concussive explosives which momentarily blind and stun enemies, opening them to melee finishers.

Smoke Screen: Increase the duration of Smoke Screen's invisibility and allow fellow Tenno to also turn invisible if they are within 15 meters of the initial cast. (Do not make this an augment. Ash desperately needs to have more skills which help benefit the team.) The range of the stun and ally invisibility effect can be effected by range mods.

Bladestorm: When first activating Bladestorm, Ash should throw his new stunning shurikens in all directions (applied only as a visual effect) which will blind and stun all enemies within X amount of meters. This will allow players to have better crowd control, while being able to select targets and such for the new reworked Bladestorm. Also maybe the new Bladestorm should only use clones for the finishing attacks, so that the player can still perform actions and shoot at things?

If possible, they should also fix enemies becoming invincible to allied damage during the Bladestorm animations. Maybe actually turn shooting enemies effected by Bladestorm into a skill based damage bonus? For example: when the clones pop out and start stabbing people, shooting an enemy while they are in the stabbing animtion will not apply damage during the animation, but it will store 3x any incoming damage and apply it as finisher damage when the stabbing animation ends.

At the moment though I'm not too sure what to do with teleport.

Edited November 28, 2016 by notHunky

[Xianos_Chaos]

So for the past three days I been ranting to myself how S#&$ty the new Ash Bladestorm feels, it's line of sight is a piece of crap, the mobility while toggle on for marking is actually refreshing, not a fan of the three markings though, but I get why cause of the animation keeping enemies alive from the old bladestorm and having you do less animation means enemies can be killed by others while clones are working them as well. But the line of sight crap ruins the flow of it, it's pretty much gone from Press 4 and kill to Press 4, have a seizure on screen, and Press 4 again. Not what it was meant for, but it's the most effective way for Ash players to do a lot of killing.

But what I come to realize while driving home today is that Ash' crappy rework would have made Mesa's Peacemaker so much more better! Back then, people's biggest problem with Peacemaker when the rework was happening was people wanted it to be the weapon warframe like excalibur, wukong, and valkyr. Able to move around while having your pistols out. But then they created that horrible thing that keeps you locked in place and getting tunnel vision while killing as you have a high energy drain cost with a low 425 energy store with a prime flow. It was terrible, but this new Ash rework for bladestorm, though crappy for him, seems would suit her better. A toggle on ability that allows you to move around, use other abilities, gain energy, and costing energy with each shot fired. Removing that high energy drain and tunnel vision for a better flow for a survival/attack warframe.

 

I wanna hear from the Main Mesa and Mesa fan players what you think of this idea? Does this sound more better for your ultimate than what you have now of Peacemaker?

[Tricky5hift]

Mesa's Peacemakers are fine the way they are now.

Ash just needs to get rid of that nauseating finisher animation or replace it with something more intuitive.

[Melos-mevim]

I use mesa a lot and really love the frame I think its fine as is, if I was to change anything I'd let her walk at a pace like nyx with the adsorb augment

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

This is a ninja. ?

 

This is a ninja ?

Alittle inspiration to go along with all these Awesome rework ideas ? keep it goin tenno. ?

 

[Xianos_Chaos]

This new rework is a piece of crap, while I get the idea behind the markings and I do like the toggle idea for it, the line of sight is terrible, literally it changed bladestorm from press 4 and kill to press 4, have a seizure with your hand, then press 4 again. This ability would work so much better if they went more with like Nekros' desecrate rework where you toggle it on and have an aoe area around you and enemies coming into this area will be marked and then you can bladestorm your marked enemies. That would bring more flow while forcing you to be more active around enemies.

 

Though Like some say in this post, this rework for Ash would work sooooooooooo much better for Mesa's Peacemaker! The toggle on ability to bring your pistols out, using energy for each shot fired, getting energy and using your other abilities would make Mesa more fun to play with while getting rid of that terrible high energy drain and tunnel vision.

[-DM-Mordred]

21 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

I use mesa a lot and really love the frame I think its fine as is, if I was to change anything I'd let her walk at a pace like nyx with the adsorb augment

That, or allow us to use this on PvE

[Melos-mevim]

1 minute ago, KillMePlis said:

That, or allow us to use this on PvE

either or

[Sir.X]

I've always liked Ash due to his literal "ninja" kit, however due to the negativity of his Bladestorm before the rework, I didn't use him that much. Now with the rework, he is much more fun to use, but I do see that there are some tweaks and polishes that he still needs.

First off, It would be nice that if you cast smoke screen before executing bladestorm, you stay invisible during the animations, and whenever your done the invisibility shuts off. So that would be nice to keep the whole "killing a whole group without being seen" thing going.

Second, it would be difficult to make it higher, but the duration of smoke screen is kinda low, and it would be nice if it was around loki's duration, but maybe add a unique mechanic, like because its a literal smoke screen, he slowly fades into being visible, so something like 12 seconds of smoke screen, 6 seconds of fading into visibility. And also, if you cast smoke screen, the initial cost of your other abilities should be reduced as well.

Third, just a simple fix for shuriken, to where the more you press 1, it adds bonus damage and shurikens, along with reduced energy cost.

Finally, the only issue I kinda have with bladestorm is the power range and slash procs done to enemies. Allies and your clones will refund your energy cost if they kill them, however if they die from the slash proc, you get no refunded energy. It would be nice that if you kill an enemy from the slash procs done by bladestorm, you get a certain amount of energy back to you, or a fixed amount. The other thing is that power range on him is weird for bladestorm, because I can't seem to figure out where it begins and ends, and if it wasn't limited by that small amount, it would make it easier to destroy large groups of enemies.

...As you can see, the running issue in my feedback is energy cost and efficiency. If you want his abilities to be more interactive, he needs more energy to cast it, almost being in the same boat as the Saryn rework.

[YUNoJump]

Sounds like Mesa becomes McCreesa with that change. Sounds cool, but current Peacemaker has a nice balance of challenge and reward.

[Shryoss]

I like the way she is rn, though, if  she could walk like Nyx with her augment it would be perfection for me (without needing a mod, doubt that will happen...). You can actually bug her ultimate somehow, I don't know how to replicate, but you can walk with ult very slowly and dodge as well.

[JFSIMON]

Some people love this rework , while some people don't like .

I'm the one who don't like it ,

since we must spend lots of time targeting before we got rekt .

This is unfavorable when we are in emergency .

 

And , to solve the animation problem , I have an idea :

Use older Bladestorm , press 4 again while stabbing enemies to stop the animation .

[Raniu]

I don't agree with all the 'Peacemakes is fine' comments.

We're playing a ninja game yet we become immobile in Peacemaker. She's mostly used on def missions :/

• allow players to zoom in while in Peacemaker

• allow players to walk (Nyx's augmented Absorb speed) while in Peacemaker (ability's feature)

+ allow players to use Mesa's Waltz in PvE (a mod you have give up a mod slot for)

Voila, Mesa is perfect.

[Jackviator]

11 hours ago, Aeon94 said:

Bladestorm should be like " Mark and send Ashsassin clones to kill targets " instead of Massacre Cinematic. With this change we could use any other ability while letting our clones to kill targets with Bladestorm. No more cinematic much more fun ! :D

You know what, that's a pretty good point. I never really thought about it much, but Ash is really a "watch the frame do cool stuff while you sit on your a**" type of frame.

Plus, the motion sickness can get a bit extreme at times.

I just might might edit that in.  

Edit: I just might've edited that in.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by Jackviator

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

22 minutes ago, JFSIMON said:

Some people love this rework , while some people don't like .

I'm the one who don't like it ,

since we must spend lots of time targeting before we got rekt .

This is unfavorable when we are in emergency .

 

And , to solve the animation problem , I have an idea :

Use older Bladestorm , press 4 again while stabbing enemies to stop the animation .

More like 95% dont like it,  3.5% are indifferent and the 1.5% that play ash in low level solo missions love it. 

[Unbr0k3n1]

I love the changes made to Ash's Smokescreen... but this rework failed to solve the problem that it originally intended to solve: His ultimate is still broken. The McCree marking of targets makes the ability "more interactive," sure, but after that it still does the same thing as it did before the rework: You still have to sit through those non-interactive animations - not to mention there are other warframes that can do the same thing (i.e. clear the room with their ultimates) more efficiently. This cinematic combat mechanic needs to be scrapped. Realistically, it should probably function closer to Excalibur's or Valkyr's ultimates except following stealth theme and synergizing with his other abilities (smokescreen and/or teleport).

Maybe even pull the camera back so it's slightly isometric and let him engage in a freeflow melee combat similar to what you'll find in Shadow of Mordor, Assassin's Creed, or Arkham Asylum with his signature daggers. You could still let him teleport to targets if that makes things simpler, and apply finisher damage to hits or add to the melee combo or something. Maybe give stealth affinity bonus if he activated smokescreen beforehand. I'm just spitting out ideas at this point.

But basically, his 4 still needs work. And there's really no incentive to use his 1 either.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Insomniak

[(PSN)Crixus044]

So a whole lot of people a pissed at ash's bladestorm rework. I deem it a failure,  but the idea of manually marking enemies is not bad.  It had potential,  but i saw this coming from a long ways away and now,  it had bore the fruit of the forum salt. It went in the wrong direction,  but there is redemption. I propose a rework 2.0.

Bladestorm: Targets enemies in Ash's range who have considered ash a high threat. All other enemies must be manually marked before cast. 8 teleportations base,  18 teleportations cap based on power duration (marking enemies can get you above teleportation cap by 1.5x) in a 25m radius. Unalerted enemies must also be manually marked like low threat level enemies,  but using bladestorm on unalerted enemies doesn't break stealth multipliers. If ash is marking enemies while smoke screen is activated, ash will remain invisible for the duration of the marking phase of Bladestorm, but it costs 5 energy per second after smoke screen's original duration expires. Also, no longer requires aiming at an enemy to activate if a high level threat is in range. Costs 100 energy,  5 energy per enemy marked, or 5 energy per second while marking invisibly. 

Threat levels in warframe exist, and even though they scale with alertness, in any video game, the player dealing the most damage to an enemy and closest to the enemy is considered the hottest threat of that enemy. I think that if warframe can expand upon threat levels and utilize them as power basis, this rework proposal can make ash awesome again, without making him the spam master p4tw type he use to be. Only enemies with a certain threatened level will be targeted by ash.

I like the idea of ash teleporting around and killing a whole bunch of enemies,  but pre-rework made him a kill steal p4tw radiation hazard ash hole. Especially when he would be getting enemies who don't even know he's there. He has been reworked to require targeting enemies one at a time with his reticle, which has reduced his mass killing potential significantly. It's a neat idea and has removed the p4tw aspect of ash that everyone loved using, but hated on their team, but ash as a killer dps warframe has been reduced to low levels of effectiveness with a higher energy cost compared to other dps killing warframes.

I feel like bladestorm is a true assassin ultimate ability and should be something themed around taking out high threat targets like an assassin would be doing, while requiring precision and tactical choice to remain stealthy, which i think having his teleportations based on strength and only targeting high threat level enemies would make him as enjoyable as he always was and effective, while still less annoying than his pre rework state. 

[Gremlin]

The rework actually feels really sweet. Give it a try before you judge so hard. I was pleasantly surprised.

[zNightWolfz]

there is nothing wrong  with the rework i enjoy it alot more than before now..

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, Ker-Blammo said:

The rework actually feels really sweet. Give it a try before you judge so hard. I was pleasantly surprised.

I did. It was not as bad as people say "ash is useless" "he should be a starter frame because he is not endgame anymore" "i pressed 4 but i didn't win, rip". But he doesn't feel that fun or awe inspiring anymore.  And using the power on a controller is just horrendously clumsy. In a squad where people are using their really high power gear,  he is actually kinda weak and I've actually grown a lot more fond of my seeking shuriken build.