Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[UrielColtan]

 

Fatal teleport is not a solution, not only does it not always activate and only saves you from pressing the melee button afterward for the same effect in regard to regular teleport, it also suffers from the same scripted cinamatic problem and simply kills one enemy at a time.

The cinematic for both, albeit stylish, are really slow at the end of the day, they should be swapped for more instantaneous and interactive moves, for that reason. Don't just make it so his clones get launched and do everything either. His clones should merely be supplemental to the new ability or abilities that Ash himself gets. Don't want Ash's 4 to be turned into Shadows of the Undead.

Shuriken although I use it a lot, could also stand to be buffed in damage in both base and slash procs, let mods other than augment and general Warframe mods effect it, maybe as a solution let secondary or even melee mods effect it, like the case with the likes of Atlas and Mesa or something. Let it cost less with consecutive use too, also like with Atlas, allow Shurikens to be counted in combos too. If not, then at the very least  give shuriken some crowd utility, IE some knockback and knockdown properties to give emphasis to the ability description and more team assistance for Ash. 

Teleport also needs to be relooked at and not simply retricted to use only for a target. Teleporting to anything with health is not enough. Let it be a free short range teleport unless targeting.

Smokescreen needs to be buffed by at least 2 more seconds as well if they are not going to allow it continuous stagger to make it stand out from Loki.

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Cytobel]

Dear Ash,

Welcome to being rail-roaded into mediocrity.  Welcome to having a rework squandered on things that don't fix your problems.  Welcome to the inevitable reality of being stuck with this situation for YEARS to come.

Sincerely,

Volt

P.S., Gratz on the solid tweak to your Smokescreen.  You're gonna need it.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Cytobel

[Tengu_Bruxo]

After the rework, you can no longer Fatal Teleport, or Blade storm the capture target.. :/

[blasron]

1 hour ago, ssh83 said:

After playing Ash more, I have to say...

RIP Bladestorm.

DE added "no corpse" effect because they know Bladestorm rework killed any tactical reason to use it over other weapon and offensive frame.  Does not make up for the clunky and energy-inefficient nature of the rework at all.

 

well even there no-corse is useless since chanelling do the same. a bit slower but still better energie efficent and you can put them to sleep with ivara.

 

Moral. all of what ash can do stealth, killing capacity is done better by many other frame and those other frame are more beneficient to a team. So ash became a worst frame than oberon. (those are my opinion if your are not happy with it well my back hole need some licking)

[Oni-Habu]

1 hour ago, FateChristopher said:

I really loved the rework to be honest. The main thing that I really love about it is that there was more freedom of movement. Picking out your targets before executing them is very cool and you feel like a fighter pilot of an extremely dangerous and mobile jet.

The one thing that I don't like is that no matter what it comes down to us still watching that animation and for me it stops the pace of the game. Warframe is a game where you start off with the pedal to the medal and its GO GO GO until you reach the end of the mission. The Bladestorm animation is a hard stop in terms of that pace.

For me what would really work is just simply not having the animation. Get rid of the vomit cam and simply just send out the clones to attack and you keep on moving, defending the objective, etc. I would still feel pretty cool seeing my army of shadow clones taking down the enemy while I Smokescreen and move on.

So in short get rid of Ash's vomit cam sequence and just send out the clones so that we can have freedom of movement during Bladestorm.

They need to rework clones so that they aren't "clones". Maybe some sort of effect that makes it look like he's blinking around or moving faster than the eye can see, while we still have control . Clones were basically a means to an end to make old bladestorm faster, but if we're getting rid of vomit cam, we really don't need them either, since creating doubles and illusions has always been Loki's neck of the woods.

[Achromatic.]

People seem to want more ways to teleport.

Since Nezha can teleport to his fire hoop when thrown, what if Ash can warp to where his shuriken is?

Also can we get a slightly bigger reticle for BS mark mode? A small circular area, like a mini Mesa Peacemaker.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Biter.

[KoinStar]

5 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Just dont change the color of the text, not the Theme.

The color of the text says automatic.

[H0139]

Well, if Ash need to mark enemies first before bladestorming, how about this? Marks provide stackable 10% reduced armor to the marked enemies, making Ash a good warframe for squad plays.

[Kaotyke]

42 minutes ago, KoinStar said:

The color of the text says automatic.

Keep it there and we are good. Just like the last posts.

[Hypernaut1]

17 minutes ago, H0139 said:

Well, if Ash need to mark enemies first before bladestorming, how about this? Marks provide stackable 10% reduced armor to the marked enemies, making Ash a good warframe for squad plays.

Only problem with a debuff is that marking doesn't cost any energy. 

I think it could still work, but it would be WFs first non energy ability (unless you consider Oberon's passive a non energy ability)

I do believe there is room to add some functionality to marking. My personal choice would be to make marked targets take extra shuriken damage, or turn shurikens into clones on a marked target.

[Gunstray]

What a bloody nerf. Instead of just fixing ash's issues(mainly invulnerable enemies) You decided to tack a half baked feature and still keep the worst parts of bladestorm. The cinematic executions.

Wasted opportunity here DE.

[(PSN)supersocc11]

I'm the only person who actually LIKES the bladestorm cutscenes aren't i....they aren't even long and they look awesome. It shows the essence of ash!

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

10 hours ago, S.C. said:

You kinda missed the point. It's about no being able to play yourself, not about whether you're stuck in a cutscene or outside of it. People still want to be able to actually play, get it? And you didn't address the other side either, because you still end up losing that animation.

In short, you improved basically nothing.

And how about you? I see no feedback from you without touching other skill besides bladestorm, youre not improving anything, youre making it worse.

Ash BS since the first introduction was all about teleporting everywhere stabbing enemies, AT FIRST, he has no clones at all, then DE acknowledge that the animation takes too long, so they added clones to speed it up. Now people complaining the animation being too long, lack of players participation, DE rework it again. This time by only letting ash do the first attack on each enemies (1st mark) & with targeting feature. But now people complaining again, wanting ash to not participate in BS at all.

Without including ash in BS cutscene, BS essentially become a version of ember's WOF, even worse, BS is dealing finisher dmg that ignores shield & armor, even mesa, oberon & banshee cant move in their ult.

So TL;DR

If you want ash to be out of his BS at all, then there will be a severe damage nerf to compensate it, or you gotta put feedback of a new ult, no more BS...

[H0139]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Only problem with a debuff is that marking doesn't cost any energy. 

I think it could still work, but it would be WFs first non energy ability (unless you consider Oberon's passive a non energy ability)

I do believe there is room to add some functionality to marking. My personal choice would be to make marked targets take extra shuriken damage, or turn shurikens into clones on a marked target.

There's another option. How about changing Ash's bladestorm augment to cause a stackable 10% reduced armor and return 20% energy on kills.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

On 11/26/2016 at 0:26 AM, The-Tective said:

Just tested reworked Blade Storm in Simulacrum.

175% Efficiency, 214% Duration

Spawned 20 Enemies then used Smoke Screen and then activated Blad Storm and marked every enemy twice while i was invisible and i had 73 energy left (i had 150 before).

I wasted almost 80 energy for 20 enemies.

Still forced to watch a cinematic scene for several seconds and wasted a lot of energy with max efficiency build.

I'm not impressed.

EDIT: Does Blade Storm still deal finisher damage? My Nikana Prime with just maxed Pressure Point deals the same damage on finisher as Blade Storm with 100% strength (2000 damage) against 3 marked lvl 135 Corrupted Heavy Gunner.

You were in simulacrum, somehow a controlled environment. :(

In real game, your team may kill enemies you marked already :(

In real game, things unexpected happen, such as enemies spawn or other stuff. :(

In real game, you may mark an enemy and by the time you wanna BS him he is out your sight,,,  :(

in real game a lot of variables.

Goodbye Ash, time for you to retire

[Wolfchild07]

Actually, nah, just tired of nerfs. I very rarely use him, but Ash's Bladestorm was a problem? Really? I see more Mirage + Simulor than I ever see, or saw, an Ash. The main problem with his ability was group members being unable to kill the targets. They could've just fixed that. Who's going to be next? Nova? Don't let Molecular Prime slow targets so much, it's easy mode, right? It's getting ridiculous. It's a horde mode game.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

I have been thinking to rework ash bladestorm by adopting mechanics from other frame

I thought of BS with effigy mechanic, ash invisible while his decoy clone stays in a place, any enemies entering its range will be attacked by BS clones, ash free to move. But then again, ash isnt defense mission type frame, he's the exterminate type frame, so i scratch out this idea.

I thought of BS with hysteria-ish mechanic. BS activate hidden blades with unique stance. Performing anykind of finisher while in this mode will summon clones performing BS attack to other enemies within 10m radius, no animation but ash doing finisher on his own.

I thought of BS with peacemaker mechanic, BS only attack enemies in LOS. Ash stuck in his place performing ninjutsu spell until the skill ends. During this phase, ash has increased chance of evasion (enemy has a big chance of missing their attack on ash). Upon ending skill, ash will release a 360 smoke bomb, dealing fire damage & reducing armor. Damage, range & armor reduction based on percentage of damage done during BS.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 minutes ago, Wolfchild07 said:

Actually, nah, just tired of nerfs. I very rarely use him, but Ash's Bladestorm was a problem? Really? I see more Mirage + Simulor than I ever see, or saw, an Ash. The main problem with his ability was group members being unable to kill the targets. They could've just fixed that. Who's going to be next? Nova? Don't let Molecular Prime slow targets so much, it's easy mode, right? It's getting ridiculous. It's a horde mode game.

Exactly. You see everybody complaining about bladestorm taking no skill for a nuke ability. But then they completely ignore the fact that nova's 4 turns any mission on any lvl into a practice range in just a press of a button.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I expected this when you first unveiled the changes, but I wanted to withhold judgment until I had gotten some hands-on time with them. Now that I have, I feel vindicated.

The changes to Blade Storm are utterly non-compelling. The marking mechanic is only a more cumbersome version of the initial target requirement Ash had before. It does not make the ability seem more "interactive" or flexible in any way. It's the same old Blade Storm that takes longer to cast. Dynamic target acquisition? Blade Storm already had that in the form of area estimation. The ability is a cutscene/slideshow? It still is. Nothing has really changed except it takes longer to cast. Not in terms of meaningful impact on game-play.

I'll admit that it is potentially useful to be able to specify exactly which targets are caught in a cast, but that is only relevant when there are few enough enemies around that a cast isn't really warranted next to something like, say, Fatal Teleport. If there are crowds of enemies, where Blade Storm excels, it is nigh impossible to make precise enough selections without some unintended targets getting roped in.

The rest of the changes are decent, but long overdue.

Going back to the subject of Fatal Teleport, this augment now outclasses Blade Storm in almost every way  provided a decent melee weapon is equipped.

• Better damage output (and Finisher Damage levels any scaling advantage the BS bleed procs may have given it).
• Better potential cost efficiency (50% refund on kill, coupled with efficiency boosts and the fact that in all likelihood only one cast will be necessary per enemy)
• Better precision (you target each enemy individually)
• Better casting speed (no need for a double button press)

Seriously, why should anyone who has Fatal Teleport use Blade Storm anymore, except for enemies that aren't affected by Fatal Teleport? I'm not usually one to support the whole "this is trash" mentality... but when the differences in performance are this great and the two abilities are functionally identical, what is the point of the under-performing ability?

I don't spend most of my time playing Ash, so perhaps someone who knows him to a greater depth will be able to provide insight regarding some benefits to the BS changes that I missed. 

Even so, this change feels like a formulaic change for the sake of change, not for the sake of improving the skill within the lens of Warframe's game-play. I think it would be more interesting to try something unique: Turn Blade Storm into a buff that reduces (perhaps eliminates) the energy cost of Ash's other skills for the duration, and enhances their offensive power while active. For example,

• Shuriken becomes ranged damage and CC output
• Smoke Screen becomes an enemy debuff in addition to invisibility
• Teleport fills the role of the individual Blade Storm attacks a la Fatal Teleport

I'm not going to address the specifics of how to do that here, but the benefits of this change are plentiful:

• Blade Storm is no longer cumbersome to cast, and fits the pace of combat more closely.
• Blade Storm is taken out of direct competition with Teleport.
• Players are still required to be active (no more "cutscene" style Blade Storm)
• Players can interrupt it at any time to support their team
• It brings the improvements to Ash's other skills out where they shine. Instead of just "building for Blade Storm," players will be able to build for his full kit.

Just my two cents.

[xXHappyCrasherXX]

actually the more i use this nerf the more i like it i love the range :D thanx de

[Awazx]

5 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Dear Ash,

Welcome to being rail-roaded into mediocrity.  Welcome to having a rework squandered on things that don't fix your problems.  Welcome to the inevitable reality of being stuck with this situation for YEARS to come.

Sincerely,

Volt

P.S., Gratz on the solid tweak to your Smokescreen.  You're gonna need it.

+1  

[(PSN)supersocc11]

But ash needs to use his arm blades....it's part of his identity...if he just sends clones out he becomes a caster and not an assassin. I don't like the direction the community is going with their recommendation to make clones do all the work...

Edited November 29, 2016 by (PS4)supersocc11

[atom]

after playing with ash for the past few days i can say that i like the general direction of the rework but i would like to see it taken further.

smoke screen is now very good and encourages duration builds.

teleport buff very welcome thank you. i can understand if there's a technical limitation because of the finisher mechanic that prevents it but maybe some interaction with his shuriken can be added to teleport?

i very much like the new bladestorm marking mechanic even if it's technically a nerf from the p42w slideshow from before.
i would like to suggest further tweaking it by removing the (very disorienting and flow breaking) cinematic part, having the clones attack, and letting ash be user controlled with access to weapons and powers. (or making this an augment)
this would be offset by removing ash's invulnerability during bladestorm (maybe give him a bit of a buff to armor?) and the new marking mechanic considering it hits less targets now.

thank you! 

Edited November 29, 2016 by ..atom..

[Chirishman343]

out of curiosity has DE replied to any of these. i got to page 32 before i just kinda gave up. i don't feel the urge to reiterate other people's complaints, they are all spot on, so no i am not at all pleased with the re-doing of ash's ult.

as an aside, i always assumed the clones were all just ash moving so fast no one could keep up with him. so he appeared to be in 3 places at once.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Chirishman343
added to post.

[Wiverio]

Been playing mostly Ash since rework, new ult takes some getting used to, definitely... but it is kind of how I imagined it to work? For some reason had the same idea about its mechanics as Chirishman343 (that clones were a speed thing), so it makes some sense for me that you have to move fast yourself to mark them.

He certanly isn't as good as a room nuker for the mobs that are spread widely and to whom everybody is too lazy to actually get to now xD and playing with him in a group and trying to use bladestorm is kinda useless, since they'll probably die while you're marking them. Still good against some high level grineer fellas though - and it's basically what I've been using him for mostly xD (and for his good looks :3)

That beeing said... tried him in solo nightmare survival and noticed that little delay after using the bladestorm that gets you killed instantly in a mission like that :( like after finishing the animations you still can't do anything for a second or so, but you are already getting damage from the mobs, (cause they are more aware of your original location than you are...  just bladestorm things) is it just me who is so slow or is it a thing? XD somebody pls confirm, I'm not sure of anything anymore now xD

And sorry for my English If it's bad :(