Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[UrielColtan]

17 hours ago, Biter. said:

The thing I hate about Exalted Weapons is I'm forced to either mod for the Ult or the actual melee weapon itself. At least with current Ash I only have to worry about having Primed Fury on there.

Whats stopping you from just modding your weapon the same way? Unless you just don't put mods on your melee or Warframe at all. Don't even need to put mods on weapons for it to still be handy. Otherwise you will at worst lose with very specific faction mods.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

53 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

Maybe they are evaluating over 50 pages of suggestions and constructive opinions to make Ash what the community really wants him to be.

eh we're at a crossroad here, Mag went over 50 pages of feedback  nothing happened. On the other side, when they made volt speed drop a pick up people ranted about it for so long, they reverted it back a couple MONTHS later, removing the pick up. it's a 50/50, is this Ash rework feedback going the Mag's direction, or Volt's?

Who knows lol

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

3 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

eh we're at a crossroad here, Mag went over 50 pages of feedback  nothing happened. On the other side, when they made volt speed drop a pick up people ranted about it for so long, they reverted it back a couple MONTHS later, removing the pick up. it's a 50/50, is this Ash rework feedback going the Mag's direction, or Volt's?

Who knows lol

Mag is still a beast tho..but this is about Ash.

[UrielColtan]

Mag herself may be revisited with her upcoming deluxe skin.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Awazx]

2 hours ago, Racter said:

What we have right now is, in literally every way, inferior to guns, melee, and other frames abilities. Ash in his current state is a bad joke, there is absolutely no reason to use him right now.

 

[Disaeo]

You can't really compare BS rework to anything else. It seems like DE doesn't want us to use bladestorm at all lol. Why would I mark an enemy if my weapons/teammates kill faster?

Edited December 1, 2016 by Tetroner

[Nagisawa]

2 hours ago, Kunsumption said:

Maybe they are evaluating over 50 pages of suggestions and constructive opinions to make Ash what the community really wants him to be.

Sadly, all they read is the first page.  There was a Devstream where that slipped out.

[Mr.Sgura]

I'll just throw in my concept for bladestorm:

Make BS an exhalted weapon that:

-executes only finishers on every enemy, stunned or not

-BS finishers keep the same animations they have now but without camera movement, like usual melee finishers

-every X finishers, or scaling with combo counter, Ash releases a clone that attacks nearby enemies the same way

-clones could be unkillable and have a set duration and a spawning cap or be killable without cap

-energy consumption increases for every clone

-when activating BS, ash gets a buff in speed/attack speed and armour or evasiveness (like mirage during shadow Eclipse)

 

I thought this way it is possible to get rid of the waiting times, conserving the animations without clippy camera angles, transforming the "press and forget" power into a more involving one

[UrielColtan]

13 hours ago, Nagisawa said:

Sadly, all they read is the first page.  There was a Devstream where that slipped out.

Go on.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

As we can see players (like me) do not like the bladestorm rework that DE has done to Ash. In my opinion this is what DE  should have done to address the problem that most people have been talking about which is of watching the animation and people not being able to get kills when enemies are marked.

I say make put bladestorm back the way it was but with two changes; one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things and it is possible to do this because if you mark one enemy three times the other two marks you don’t do the clones do the two so the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not.

Ash is my favorite warframe not just for bladestorm but for all his abilities. And now from what I see he is completely useless Put him in a full team with one of the players being ember and see what happens, you won’t be able to get any kills.

Dear DE out of all your reworks this is the worst one, Excalibur`s 4<sup>th</sup> ability got De-buffed with the damage but you can still use him (in a team) but Ash you can`t. Yes I get it Ash as an assassin marking enemies makes sense but you’re missing the point, the important thing; how he plays and Ash fans (including me) are disappointed so please DE for the sake of Ash fans, make Ash great again.

[Yaerion]

Just now, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

-

Teleported within 

 

[UrielColtan]

On 11/30/2016 at 10:39 AM, Blacknight00D said:

Here is my 2 cents. If I mention anything in here that has been mentioned in the past 40+ pages, I apologize. 

The bladestorm rework is an improvement but in the wrong direction. What needs to happen is more interaction with the animation cut-scenes to feel like you are more of an assassin. I've have been watching the Batman Telltale Series and they do the actions within the scenes well. Bladestorm can benefit from these actions.

Idea #1 

Each Bladestorm animation should have a certain button that you have to hit within a certain time (maybe a second) to complete the animation/kill. If you hit the wrong button or miss the time limit, you miss the kill and only damage the enemy a small percentage. 

 

Idea #2

Each enemy has a critical area on the body. During the quick animation, the player should have to click within the circle which would indicate where the critical point on the body is. The circle indicator should shrink over time in the animation. The faster you click the circle, the faster the animation, the more damage you do. If you miss the circle, you will only do very minimal damage.

 

In conclusion

It has been mentioned that bladestorm has been reduced to a multiform of Teleport now without as much damage, I agree. We should go back to the old way of Bladestorm and add one of the above ideas into it. If people still want to target their enemies, the augment Rising Storm should be changed to support this.

TellTale, popular but they provide little substance gameplay wise, and ditto choice wise, as most of your choices they offer make little difference. Their stuff is basically even more watered down visual novels than the visual novel genre has been, with narrow outcomes overall. Multiple "play"throughs render very few dynamic results. I rather Ash not take cues from them.

QTEs are an impotent way of adding interactivity, for what are still canned animations, they don't fit a team based game with shooting, hordes and level hazards anyway and they are annoying in the games that do have them. Ninja Blade went right back to the store for me because of that stuff. i want to play my games, and that has been the growing trend since the trend GoW helped resurge from those terrible early 90s FMV  mini-games, lost more of its novelty in later years.  

 Things can be killed faster than with these cutscenes, they serve little use other than annoying detachment. Things like this are for when a dev is feeling too lazy to program something so they they put in prerendered things to fill space. I'd hope DE would actually want better than that. I was also hoping with the first mention of a rework for Ash that this would inevitably be replaced with something more like an exalted state, as suggested all way back during the Wukong and Atlas preview devstream, but they just ended up keeping the cutscenes and making the move less effective.

Hopefully the devs try again and offer a new, playable 4 for Ash, as well as buffing his other abilities more than they have.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[0zryel]

I love the control I have over the BS so far... I can control who I kill if Im short on energy... I don't have to wait until full energy to release... I get refunded if enemies die, its perfect. Also it took care of all does 4 mashers players, that made ASH look like a Joke, that did nothing but press that ability. Thank you DE for the rework... Im actually being tactical with ASH again. 

NOTE: I have a question: In capture missions I can't seem to mark those  capture targets... I do know that before remake this was intended to stop BS cancer, but is it going to stay that way? We can mark at least 3 times a Bosses why not let us with the capture...is it intended?

I know its not really that important but I though I should let you know. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by 0zryel

[UrielColtan]

 You have no control over actual BS and you expend more energy for worse result, with Ash's already pitiful energy stats. Getting revenge on some Ash players is a weak motivator for supporting this.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[(PSN)Vexx757]

As we can see players (like me) do not like the bladestorm rework that DE has done to Ash. In my opinion this is what DE  should have done to address the problem that most people have been talking about which is of watching the animation and people not being able to get kills when enemies are marked.

I say make put bladestorm back the way it was but with two changes; one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things and it is possible to do this because if you mark one enemy three times the other two marks you don’t do the clones do the two so the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not.

Ash is my favorite warframe not just for bladestorm but for all his abilities. And now from what I see he is completely useless Put him in a full team with one of the players being ember and see what happens, you won’t be able to get any kills.

Dear DE out of all your reworks this is the worst one, Excalibur`s 4<sup>th</sup> ability got de-buffed with the damage but you can still use him (in a team) but Ash you can`t. Yes I get it Ash as an assassin marking enemies makes sense but you’re missing the point, the important thing; how he plays and Ash fans (including me) are disappointed so please DE for the sake of Ash fans, make Ash great again.

Edited December 1, 2016 by (PS4)Vexx757

[Extroah]

The majority of people here seem to rather like it, except for those press 4 to win people. Also, your first point can't be done, because killing Enemies that were marked by Bladestorm would bug out the Ash, that's why it was done so in the first place. The current rework is fine as it is, you can now coordinate with your Team on which Enemies you should target instead of just attacking a random crowd where you didn't even want to go,..

[Evanescent]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

 

Ash is my favorite warframe not just for bladestorm but for all his abilities. And now from what I see he is completely useless Put him in a full team with one of the players being ember and see what happens, you won’t be able to get any kills.

?????

You played him yet?

'Cause his 2 and 3 got some nifty buffs and feel really fluid. His shuriken still sucks, but not much has changed outside of the targeting.

Are you jumping on the bandwagon, friend? Don't. 

If you aren't, perhaps you would like to revise your statement to 'I like ash for bladestorm'?

I have nothing against you, but it seems strange you complain about him being useless and liking him for all his abilities when the only thing that got really changed is BS needing targeting and his 2 and 3 getting better.

 

[Nep_Blanc]

For a not Ash fan I just saw this rework a nerf packaged in a rework and a really bad nerf.

I hope they revert it and just make it the way as OP suggested, in a way it can make him broken but they could easily fix that the devs are more then capable to make new code that will prevent issues with the proposed ideas.

Ash never was engaging but at least can we just use the abil and see the clones kill and still keep walking on our own?

 

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

1. Remove the "Megathread" Tag. that and "PSA" tag are reserved for DE staff and Forum Mods.

2. dude, we dont even have it on consoles yet. before passing judgement, why dont you wait until YOU can actually experience it

Edited December 1, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel

[0zryel]

40 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

 You have no control over actual BS and you expend more energy, actually.. 

If that's true I haven't notice, I don't kill everything on screen unless its needed, I like to be diverse on how I carry my self in missions or it would get boring... I like to prioritize on heavy threat targets... so I always have energy to spare for. Since Im a Power strength focus ASH with a Prime Flow...Almost all mods are into power strength... before the rework I had to wait to fill out my energy reeeeaaaally high to unleash BS on a full room of enemies... if there was no full room, I rather not waste it, since my offensive abilities are almost guaranty a one shot kill, except in extremely high lv missions, but it left me empty, so its was risky. Now I can just focus BS on that ONE deadly enemy and still have a bit of energy left for other abilities or another BS threat target while my team kill the rest. I could not do that before...so to me its working better than I expected.

Ash players that could spam BS infinitely must be in heaven with this as they will never run out of energy and can quick BS anytime all the time any target at will if their quick enough to mark them, if they wish...

Either way If this change Ill adapt and work around it, my ASH has never been focus on BS anyway... with the new changes I can now add to it more to my tactical play style, that's all.

Edited December 1, 2016 by 0zryel

[minidelight]

35 minutes ago, Extroah said:

The majority of people here seem to rather like it, except for those press 4 to win people. Also, your first point can't be done, because killing Enemies that were marked by Bladestorm would bug out the Ash, that's why it was done so in the first place. The current rework is fine as it is, you can now coordinate with your Team on which Enemies you should target instead of just attacking a random crowd where you didn't even want to go,..

you dont need to coordinate anything with your team, because its faster to kill enemies with weapons than with the "reworked" BS.

Edited December 1, 2016 by minidelight

[UrielColtan]

12 hours ago, 0zryel said:

If that's true I haven't notice, I don't kill everything on screen unless its needed, I like to be diverse on how I carry my self in missions or it would get boring... I like to prioritize on heavy threat targets... so I always have energy to spare for. Since Im a Power focus ASH with a Prime Flow...Almost all mods are into power... before the rework I had to wait to fill out my energy reeeeaaaally high to unleash BS on a full room of enemies... if there was no full room, I rather not waste it, since my abilities are almost guaranty a one shot kill except in extremely high lv missions, but it left me empty, so its was risky. Now I can just focus BS on that ONE deadly enemy and still have a bit of energy left for other abilities or another BS threat target while my team kill the rest. I could not do that before...so to me its working better than I expected.

Ash players that could spam BS infinitely must be in heaven with this as they will never run out of energy and can quick BS anytime all the time any target at will if their quick enough to mark them, if they wish...

Either way If this change Ill adapt and work around it, my ASH has never been focus on BS anyway... with the new changes I can now add to it more to my tactical play style, that's all.

Do you even really play Ash? If an Ash player wanted to focus on that one enemy for less energy, then they just Teleport to them for the finisher proc for higher damage, or even better, Fatal teleport, which also gives energy and does even more damage. You're acting like pointing the retical is some classy precision surgery when its merely nothing but gimped Mesa targeting, without fixing the actual non-interactive part of Bladestorm, or substantially improving some of his other abilities. You do run out of enrgy, substantially in higher levels. Eximus don't care about energy returns or damage with higher armor. Energy return don't care about deaths from bleed procs. Energy return don't care about needing to cast smokescreen repeatedly to safely keep marking because Ash is so squishy.

Edited December 1, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Zanchak]

26 minutes ago, Extroah said:

The majority of people here seem to rather like it, except for those press 4 to win people. Also, your first point can't be done, because killing Enemies that were marked by Bladestorm would bug out the Ash, that's why it was done so in the first place. The current rework is fine as it is, you can now coordinate with your Team on which Enemies you should target instead of just attacking a random crowd where you didn't even want to go,..

It's a rather large assumption that only "press 4 to win" people dislike this rework.

His "4" now is awkward, time consuming and pointless to use when you can achieve the same results in less time with a gun or another frame. They are "ults" for a reason, perhaps people should remember that before everything's made useless.

As for co-ordinating with teams - how is that going to happen in pubs? "Oi there Ash my matey, you just kill those ones and I'll be over here killing these all polite like so we don't step on each other." Are they gonna go out for a nice cuppa afterwards?

It's a terrible rework with "some good bits" - but terrible overall.

[Extroah]

10 minutes ago, Zanchak said:

It's a rather large assumption that only "press 4 to win" people dislike this rework.

His "4" now is awkward, time consuming and pointless to use when you can achieve the same results in less time with a gun or another frame. They are "ults" for a reason, perhaps people should remember that before everything's made useless.

As for co-ordinating with teams - how is that going to happen in pubs? "Oi there Ash my matey, you just kill those ones and I'll be over here killing these all polite like so we don't step on each other." Are they gonna go out for a nice cuppa afterwards?

It's a terrible rework with "some good bits" - but terrible overall.

Well, that's a good point. With coordinating i meant more like Discord/TS with Clanmates, but yeah, public matches would be a different topic, lol.

[Gendarme]

7 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

 

 

 

There was no upgrade. His stats and other abilities didn't benefit enough to justify his best ability being nerfed and still keeping the annoying non-interactive cutscenes. Better way to change his play style would be to actually improve his other abilities and stats, removing the cutscenes, and moving marking to his 3rd as an optional tog, not just prioritizing conditions that some other frames don't even have to deal with in simular situations. The best idea you have there is giving augments their own slot. Augments should not be straight up corrupted mods with conditions though. Too much priority on conditions is actually what makes for narrow minded play styles. We would still only be using specific powers to place on our Warframe like back in the old days if we stuck to stagnating conditions that pideonhole you into doing a limited amount of things.

Okay, the first part i do not understand, in my post, if that's what you were reffering to, I didnt nerf his best ability, nor have i kept the cutscenes, although reading back i understand how one could misunderstand what i wrote.

For the second part, I've actually made a topic on its own, and the purpose of it was to show the way i see auguments and their implementation through a complete concept for a frame, and stimulate a discussion about it. Then the mods here decided to teleport it to this thread, i guess because it had to do with Ash? 

The way i see auguments is not as a simple +power that you sometimes just have to slot in because its too good, instead, in my view, they should be modifications to abilities that come with additional functionality, but also come with a drawback to promote different playstyles and additional customisation for frames.

Comparison with corrupted mods is one i expected, but corrupted mods are useful because of their inflated stats, often times when one is modifying a frame one focuses on 1 or 2 stats and completely disregards the rest, which makes certain abilities super strong, and then others borderline useless. Auguments that modify the way abilities function, changes their purpose and the way one plays instead of focusing on how often does one press 1, 2, 3 and 4.