Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[JamesMcJam]

On 12/4/2016 at 4:04 PM, Xiaoshino said:

Not Exactly. think about it, press 1, then press 4 = Dead. 

instead of

press 4, scan around for enemies and mark them 3 times, and if they aren't dead, Press 4 again = Might be dead.

You'd have to aim to target an enemy, vs. moving your camera across a crowd to target multiple enemies.

Edited December 6, 2016 by JamesMcJam
Incomplete post

[UrielColtan]

19 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

It's slower cause it was too good before, don't let that cloud your mind, DE slowly tries to remove powers like what BS was and I imagine ember would come soon after.

How exactly does it do less damage? It's still 2k per hit and still with forced bleed....

I get the problem with the interactivity but frankly I've neither seen nor come up with a decent suggestion for the fix :(

 

Bleed damage has actually been reduced in spite of pretend Ash players saying his damage has been increased, and a single mark does not do the same job for basic DPS in proportion to efficiency.

"It's slower cause..." should rarely be an acceptable answer for a swift killing ninja. Too OP, yeah right, no one complained about how high of a damage they did before because raw damage rarely scales as well as utility. The main concern was that his ult was non-interactive and that it locked off enemies from other player damage, which was only a thing because of the non-interactive cutscenes. Just get rid of them.

The only consolation to the prior repetetive, non-interactive cutscenes was that the move was actually more effective than this, and was more energy efficient. It's been made more pathetic and slow now, and we still have to suffer through the cutscenes. Don't let your desire to see Ash nerfed and stale, cloud your mind.

You can't see or have not seen a decent suggestion over the cutscenes? More like you ignore them, likely because you're like those who don't really care about Ash and subsequently don't care that the control is taken away from the player when activating his ult, because you don't play him anyway.

Like the people who just wanted him to be nerfed simply so their Synoid Simulor Mirage or whatever can shine. 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by UrielColtan

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

I mean, who the hell would be saying they want an ability Ash does not even have, to get nerfed? Because that's effectively what you are conflating.

This is not what I was saying at all.  I still stand by my statement that forum users will and have gone ape$#!%%! at any change.  My only mistake was thinking you were referring to the most recent changes of the last year.  I mean lets be fair.  It was a few pages back, and easy to miss in 62 pages.  :D

[MemeSageZ]

8 hours ago, Tengu_Bruxo said:

This is the idea that i posted on the feed back forum.

Hey Tenno,

I’m writing this in hopes that DE will see that the community has some soild ideas, as well as caring hearts for this game. Anyway here I go.

I’ve been playing around, really thinking hard what DE could do in order to help fix this Ash rework. Tons of ideas from the community have been thrown around different fixes here and there.. With that said, I decided that make a full rundown with some of the ideas, as well as push Ash to the “assassin-estc” frame that we know that he can be.  Would love to know what you guys think.

These are my ideas.

Shuriken: Remains the same: 25 energy key 1  Ash throws 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 shuriken which seek-out enemies, each dealing 100 / 250 / 350 / 500 Slash damage with a 100% status chance.

Teleport:  remains the same: 25 energy key 2 (holding onto the current changes which make teleport much better) Ash teleports to a target within 20 / 45 / 45 / 60 meters. (Current Bladestorm animation for the finisher will apply here)

Below are the changes that push Ash into the niche that he should be a part of. I’ll give my reasons with the changes that I propose.

Assassins Sight:  75 energy key 3: Ash’s sight extends, bolstering the critical chance and movement speed of his allies within 15 / 20 / 22 / 25 meters. Affected allies will gain 15% / 20% / 25% / 50%  increased critical chance and movement speed for 7 / 10 / 12 / 15 seconds.

Design notes:

This will give Ash a stronger “team” feel while in groups, instead of being the frame that everyone associates as either a solo frame, or noob frame.  This also increases his viability at higher level missions. This also places Ash in a group of frames (Rhino and Valkyr ) that help increase party output without stepping on the toes, or out classing them.  After all Ash (imo) has always been the Assassin frame.

Shadow Dance: 75 energy key 4 (or any other name that would fit better): Ash unleashes the power of shadow and ash staggering enemies for a short duration within a radius of 15 meters. Ash becomes untargetable for 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.

Ash instantly enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, emitting black smoke and seeing the environment in monochrome. During shadow dance, enemies within 50 meters that are seen near the aiming reticule become tagged with a Death Mark that appears above them, while all marked targets are highlighted in red.

Shadow Clones assault all marked enemies within his ability radius. Each attack inflicts 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 2000 Finisher damage with a 100% Bleed chance. Damage is affected by Power Strength, Steel Charge, and Combo Counter multipliers

Design notes:

This ability becomes two fold. Smoke bomb, as well as a form of AoE attack vs multiple targets. I’ve seen various people play with the idea of a “cool down” to Ash’s Bladestorm, to remove his animations etc.

For me this kind of fixes the problem tying his damage to the duration of his stealth. (Which is why Ash has a short stealth timer). This also helps with Ash’s Survivability by functioning as smoke bomb, but also removing the threat from around Ash with his Clones attacking everything within his “marked” field of vision. In this “mode” Ash will still have his full breath of movement.

The marks don’t stack as they do now, instead they mark once, then a clone attacks at its full strength. This also removes the time needed for multiple marks, as well as the cinematic animations that slow Ash down, but allows his clones to keep them. Once the duration of his stealth ends, the clones will disappear. Clones will still be affected by combo-meter and such.

Anyway these are my current idea’s that might help bring Ash into something more of a team player, yet still keeping his “Fast hitting Assassin” feel.

Hope my fellow Tenno like this!

I Like the major of your ideas, I Still Feel like The first ability is useless though.

[Aatrocy.]

biggest difference is that new player like the new ash since they never had to use him in a lategame 100+ wave defense while the old one who used it are getting annoyed by the 30s cutscence and 4 perma spam defense while doing somehthing better and are pissed of the hugly decreased team contribution it offers. most likely with the new rework itll be taken even less for sortie or 40+ mission

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

What exact theme change would come from making Ash have a new ult that isn't some glorified nerf oe slide show? Obviously people want changes akin to what happened with Excal.

I don't know what you're getting at.  They didn't give him a new ult because they probably felt his current one speaks to their core idea of him.  Plus I don't think the solution is to give every rework an exalted weapon.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Look guys you might as well hear this now. As much as I hate to say this, let’s just call this situation it what it is. DE will not change ash, think about it when do you know of a time DE did a re-work and we didn`t like it then they changed it back? It`s never happened. When DE showed Ash in the dev stream, was it any different to how it is now? Once they changes something they won`t change it back so them asking for feedback is a lie and everyone of you should remember this when future reworks come out whether is good or bad, the only way they will change a re-work is to de-buff it like Excalibur.

The only thing they changed is how to activate bs from hold to press because of console players but even now they are not thinking about console players, at least with pc players when marking they are using their hand which is quicker but console players have to use their thumbs. If it was me I would make the aimer in the middle bigger so that it’s easier to mark enemies (this doesn’t mean I like this new bs because I don`t). Sometime it makes me wonder, I’m not even a game developer but I can come up with simple solutions.

My opinion on Bladestorm.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/728645-how-i-would-have-changed-bladestorm/#comment-8111567

[Tozeas]

I actually kind of like the new blade storm, sure it's a nerf from its previous version, but if you position yourself well its decent, I've been enjoying it for solo stealth missions.

[Dawn11715]

You are aware of the fact that you can literally have the marking on at all times.... 

needing shuriken would actually increase the duration needed to mark  and it would make it worse as a panic trigger.

[MontyOG]

this is just what i want if I could rework ash, probably not going to happen but who knows

 

The Rework:

shuriken - change to a dual mode ability similar to ivara or vauban's first ability however to change the mode it would be holding down the key. 1st form is the shuriken. 2nd for would be caltrops that slow enemies and deal damage over time to enemies within the area.

 

smoke screen - change to a stun bomb or an aoe throwable that reduces accuracy of enemies (or a poison bomb or something idk)

 

teleport - i say incorporate lethal teleport into it where you do a finisher however maybe reduce the damage multiplier so it isnt a guaranteed 1 shot in some mobs (dunno how to make this non op with the dagger mod) OR make it a distance teleport and not a targeted one.

 

blade storm - rename to "assassin's touch" (or something along those lines) basically this is a buff when active that doubles the energy cost of the next ability cast but has a different effect as the following.

shuriken - basically a micro mesa ult that throws A SINGLE shuriken at all enemies on screen marking them. the next teleport you cast on a marked enemy does what we know as the current blade storm but not as op in damage terms. maybe does a percentage of their max health (something along the lines of 20 or 30%) while applying a given proc depending on the faction, viral of infested, corrosive for grineer, magnetic for corpus. the procs last scale to ability duration, this way there is a way to use ash as a debuffer and not straight damage.

smoke screen - as well as the stun/poison effect, you go invisible for a somewhat considerable amount of time (broken with your next instance of damage applied to an enemy with a damage multiplier but nothing extreme) as well as spawning a clone that will distract enemies and attack with a damage multiplier like 0.5 or something.

teleport:

IF USING ON MARKED ENEMIES (from the charged shuriken) turns into an aoe around a target that basically turns into the old blade storm HOWEVER instead of watching the repetitive long animation, your camera stays in the position of casting and you see ash go at like mach 5 speed between targets so per target you see ash just dashing between them taking like 0.2 second (ash would also be in a 'smoke like' energy form that is what ever your energy colour is)

IF NOT USING ON MARKED ENEMIES then teleport turns into a blink strike basically, which would then drop caltrops around the enemy in a 10m radius (idk the exact balanced distances) 

 

Personal Input 

TLDR: THis concept makes ash in the higher leveled missions a debuffer and micro CC frame.

I love ash, i like the concept of just an assassin in general, it's generally speaking the class i gravitate towards on most games. However, i think that Ash right now is simply designed as the 'every button helps you kill more sh*t' frame, which i don't think assassins should be generally speaking. For ME assassins should, yes, be capable of high dps, or burst damage, however i also think that with the 'ninja' theme of Ash, other tools, techniques that were used by assassins of that time (and the romanticized versions), could be incorporated into the game that not only allows ash to deal high amounts of burst damage, but also be used as crowd control, or weakening the enemy so that it makes it a lot easier to kill high leveled mobs. The premise of this concept is basically, Ash is going to be extremely good at kill lower level trash mobs with his aoe abilities, while in higher levels, Ash changes from a be all end all damage frame that kills everything, into a debuffer and semi CC frame that is good at simply debuffing large groups of enemies, while dealing a moderate amount of damage. I also think that this may help other frames that may not get used much in certain situations, become more viable as this Ash rework would make abilities that don't scale well into the higher level mission more viable.

Important:

Firstly, some of these ability rework ideas are not mine, the shuriken rework for example came from someone Quite Shy showed in her 'Ash is dead' video, and im sure some of these ideas have been said in the past, I am not claiming that these are my ideas, these are just a bunch of different ability reworks, some i have seen some i haven't, that i think would make ash more than just a mob killer. If there is an reworked ability idea that seems like i copied it, i don't intend to copy it, and i don't know where it came from so i can't give credit where it is due.

Final notes:

I think the current Ash 'rework' (implemented in 19.1.0 i think, as well as alongside the Ash deluxe 'koga' skin, which i have to say i love if anyone from DE is reading this) however, i don't think that it was quite enough of a change to be called a rework, to me at least it just felt like a tweak, which i know quite a few other people feel the same. I am however not an idiot, i know that reworking a single ability must take a literal ton of work, spanning days, weeks, maybe even months let alone all abilities on a warframe. this concept that i have presented is extremely different (in terms of coding and mechanics) and would likely take a long &#! time to do, and since DE has just spent a month or so creating the recent Ash rework, i highly doubt they want to do another one straight after, if at all and i'm fine with that, i like Ash and i have always liked Ash, he is my favourite frame, this whole essay essentially has simply been provided as my personal opinion on what i would like to see IF DE decides to do ANOTHER rework.

Thank you for reading :)

[CrazyCatLad]

Admittedly I didn't read it all but you lost me at Smokescreen. Don't you touch it. It is fine as is.

[MontyOG]

haha i'm not trying to change anything, it's just what i would like to see. i really hope my concept just sparks conversation to make ash a little more diverse, that's all and in the concept, i changed ash's cloak to be part of his ult. it's a little more complicated than it should be but meh just having fun

Edited December 6, 2016 by -CM-Wolfe3Lad
forgot to put in information

[Extroah]

Didn't read it all, and as said above, leave Smokescreen alone. But besides that, i like the "synergy" between Shuriken, Teleport and Bladestorm. This would've been awesome, but he's pretty fine as he is right now.

[Toran]

I adapt by not using Blade Storm anymore. I switched from power to duration, efficiency and survivability, Steel Charge and Coaction Drift. I teleport alot and engage enemy groups manually with my Galatine Prime. Paired with Naramon this works rather fine. Needless to say it's a very forma-/mod-heavy build. On the other hand, Ash's no newcomer's frame anymore, now.

I wish they'd come up with something completely new and finally synergized Ash's skills.

The real shame is: he brings little to a group now (and easily killing mobs that are out of sight or at hard-to-reach places was a group benefit). Sure, I could take Smoke Shadow along but I really couldn't care less with random groups and the mod's laughable range of 5 meters...

[dodyouserious]

Give ash an actual rework or i will riot. oh and btw for the quality feedback IT SUCKS O MAAI GOD HOW IS IT CALLED A REWORK IT BARELY CHANGED!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[nelu_Y3K]

I got it. Just make Bladestorm scale with melee mods.

Or give Ash an exalted dagger. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by nelu_Y3K

[Achromatic.]

Another update and nothing about Ash. Looks like we'll have to wait until they vault him then unvault him so they have monetary incentive to change him.

[Drufo]

There was a time where Blade Storm where executed by Ash alone. It was so much slow that you were left behind or couldn't help a teammate in need before finishing the long cutscene. So DE introduced clones and sped it up a lot. With the rework, the old problem has returned: Blade Storm, if done on a good number of enemies, is very slow. What I'd like to see is the addition of a way to cancel it at any time in case I want to help a teammate or I want to go on without killing everybody. I think "hold 4" would work, even if you want to cancel the ability before even starting it (so to not waste energy on enemies you don't want to kill anymore), without the risk of canceling the ability by mistake.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Drufo

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

7 minutes ago, Drufo said:

There was a time where Blade Storm where executed by Ash alone. It was so much slow that you were left behind or couldn't help a teammate in need before finishing the long cutscene. So DE introduced clones and sped it up a lot. With the rework, the old problem has returned: Blade Storm, if done on a good number of enemies, is very slow. What I'd like to see is the addition of a way to cancel it at any time in case I want to help a teammate or I want to go on without killing everybody. I think "hold 4" would work, even if you want to cancel the ability before even starting it (so to not waste energy on enemies you don't want to kill anymore), without the risk of canceling the ability by mistake.

Or just make it toggle?

[Arcadiace]

Personally I think the cutscenes should be limited. One or two animated cutscenes, regardless of the number of marks; and let the clones do the rest.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Arcadiace

[Sashmaul]

1 hour ago, Biter. said:

Another update and nothing about Ash. Looks like we'll have to wait until they vault him then unvault him so they have monetary incentive to change him.

This is the same assumption I have come to, honestly im dissapointed I thought after all the feedback regarding this they might have tweeked some aspect. With alot of the issue being the cinematic and still being locked into it and or those who have stated that it is not that long, I was in a survival with one other person and I admit i missclicked, in doing so insted of telepoting to the downed allie I watched the cinematic and when i came out of it I had 2 seconds to get to him. Lets just say this is more than an issue for me to watch the game go by. 

[NinjaZeku]

Why can't we just remove the Ash teleport part and let the clones do 100% of it?
If the goal was to make him "more interactive" and stuff,
losing control long enough to go get a drink just like during old BS is ... well, BS :P

Ash has a whole 'nother ability that gives him teleport pwnage,
if the special animations need to stay in the game for whatever reason,
maybe slot them onto the Teleport Augment ... yes no maybe?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

 

[Implodingbanana]

42 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

Why can't we just remove the Ash teleport part and let the clones do 100% of it?
If the goal was to make him "more interactive" and stuff,
losing control long enough to go get a drink just like during old BS is ... well, BS :P

Ash has a whole 'nother ability that gives him teleport pwnage,
if the special animations need to stay in the game for whatever reason,
maybe slot them onto the Teleport Augment ... yes no maybe?

I think they considered it, but it felt to much like Ember's world on fire.

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, Biter. said:

Another update and nothing about Ash. Looks like we'll have to wait until they vault him then unvault him so they have monetary incentive to change him.

I'm 'hoping' the lack of any updates is because of the recent events they've had to attend rather than them just ignoring the fact that they've gone wrong with the changes to ash....