Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

 i would freaking love it if melee slash dmg mods boosted the bleed procs of bladestorm

#dreamsarefree

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by arm4geddon-117

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

What part about he current Bs is even OP to begin with? One could make his clones attack AND let him recast while it is still ongoing with all the setup time, the weakish enemys which mostly die before Bs even activates, the ridiculous high energy cost and ...the rest of his kit really taken into consideration. He still wouldn't be Op...

I'm also among the people who like the focus the rework brought to him but let us face reality...he has become a trash tier ever since. Finisher damage by no means justifies the bullsh** they did with bs. But it's fine like this. The game is in beta and it's the communitys job to test content so i hope that the devs stumble across this thread with this idea in mind.

Edited February 11, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

 it's the communitys job to test content so i hope that the devs stumble across this thread with this idea in mind.

The point is that the part of the community that knew better (not the "nerf it crowd" neither the "ash is fine crowd") already posted from day 1 the problems current blade storm would bring, and what actually needed to be done, DE just went ahead and made changes anyway, then gleefully ignoring all the feedback that came after, only to up themselves by releasing Nidus with more sh*t stacked on him than any other frame, so they DID have resources and time to give Ash a proper and effective rework with community input.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

The point is that the part of the community that knew better (not the "nerf it crowd" neither the "ash is fine crowd") already posted from day 1 the problems current blade storm would bring, and what actually needed to be done, DE just went ahead and made changes anyway, then gleefully ignoring all the feedback that came after, only to up themselves by releasing Nidus with more sh*t stacked on him than any other frame, so they DID have resources and time to give Ash a proper and effective rework with community input.

Yep, they do this a lot in reality. Ignoring theyr work and just pushing theyr own agenda, how one might consider it common in any type of management position really. Just thought i'll leave a little reminder there for a change about what responsibility they've taken upon themselfes by keeping the game in beta. You can't please everyone, that's a given but just breaking frames and then become deaf to constructive criticism really shouldn't be a option. Why not remind them? No point in ranting anyways.

Edited February 11, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Yep, they do this a lot in reality. Ignoring theyr work and just pushing theyr own agenda, how one might consider it common in any type of management position really. Just thought i'll leave a little reminder there for a change about what responsibility they've taken upon themselfes by keeping the game in beta. You can't please everyone, that's a given but just breaking frames and then become deaf to constructive criticism really shouldn't be a option. Why not remind them? No point in ranting anyways.

Yep. Reminding them is enough every once in a while :3

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Ash Ideas: These concepts have been passed around and discussed forever (it seems like it, anyway).

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

On 02/08/2017 at 3:40 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

I am one who wanted Bladestorm to be changed. I wanted it to be a bit more interactive, and get rid of all the shaky cam/cutscene stuff. I wanted to be more involved, and not get motion sickness while playing, or just sit and watch/do other things while the game played the game for me. 

I really thought that Ash's rework was going to address that, but if anything it fixed one problem while actually making another problem even worse. Bladestorm is now interactive (perhaps TOO interactive for such a fast paced game as Warframe, but that's another thing to discuss), but the cutscene prime problem is even worse. 

With invis to take your time and mark and enough energy/pads/trin you can mark and mark over and over before you finally activate Bladestorm. You can get way more enemies targeted than before in a single Bladestorm. What this means is that the ability has been made more interactive, but for every bit of interactivity you take, it increases the amount of time that the game plays the game for you while you sit there watching. The more you interact and mark enemies, the longer your Bladestorm is going to last while you just sit there and watch. 

I am not sure what the best solution is to this, but it really shows that one problem has been fixed at the expense of making another worse. What good is increased interactivity if the more time you spend interacting, the more time you have to spend NOT interacting and just watching the game play for you? Why can't we have some version of the ability where we are not locked into watching animations during it? 

OK for 1, by the time you mark the number of enemies your squad mates have probably already killed them. For 2, if you don't want to spend a lot of time in Bladestorm you might want to consider I dunno.. not marking that many?

[Darkmatt3r]

Oh hes rotting there for me & will rot forever . The change was great but it gets boring after few games . Community asked for a change & which is good but now we are dealing with a shakeathon marathon whenever we play ash . 

I am just laughing right now *grabs popcorn*

[Grahnz]

I agree with OP, was definitely disappointed to see that the animation hadn't changed since the animation was one of the biggest issue with BS in general. 

On a side note, does anyone know if they ever decreased the energy cost of Marking? Many people after the rework had huge issues with its consumption even in stealth mode.

[Tesseract7777]

20 minutes ago, Grahnz said:

I agree with OP, was definitely disappointed to see that the animation hadn't changed since the animation was one of the biggest issue with BS in general. 

On a side note, does anyone know if they ever decreased the energy cost of Marking? Many people after the rework had huge issues with its consumption even in stealth mode.

They haven't changed the cost since they reworked the ability. 

And, I noted that they nerfed the absolute stuffing out of his energy economy for BS when they reworked him. 

I don't remember my exact calculations, but as you know, he consumes less energy when marking while invis. However, that is still a nerf based on the original numbers.

When not invis, it now costs roughly three times as much per attack. 

When invis, it still costs about two times as much per attack. And keep in mind you still had to spend the energy to invis in the first place. 

So yeah huge energy nerf for Ash. 

To be exact. Ash could attack up to 18 times before per Bladestorm and Bladestorm cost 100 energy. 

This comes out to 100 / 18 = 5.6 energy per attack (rounded up to the nearest decimal). 

Now it costs 15 energy per attack. And 10 if you are invisible. But if you invisible you spent 35 at base energy cost to go invisible in the first place so that is significantly more than twice as much as before per attack even when you are invisible. And Ash is I believe, tied with several other frames for lowest base energy pool in the game. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Darkmatt3r said:

Oh hes rotting there for me & will rot forever . The change was great but it gets boring after few games . Community asked for a change & which is good but now we are dealing with a shakeathon marathon whenever we play ash . 

I am just laughing right now *grabs popcorn*

Well, the obvious issues with DE's idea of reworking revisiting Ash were pin pointed roughly on the same Devstream they announced that they were going to change blade storm. About six months later they showed BS targeting and people once again actual Ash users pointed all the issues it would create, and about another 4 or 5 F-ing months later DE released the "revisit" roughly unchanged from what they showed on that stream, and the response was pretty much the same, granted it is better than the horror we expected, but still is a half-arsed job. At first one could somewhat understand what with the whole TWW in the process of being developed, but later they upped themselves by releasing the all powerful Nidus with awesome mechanics, which meant they could have delayed the rework another month or two to give us a true rework that solved the issues players have been pointing out for 3 years, or at least keep doing little to average changes based on feedback, something they didn't at all, looking at the 90+ pages of megathread without ANY change whatsoever. And Ash is still sh*T in Conclave too, Blade Storm somehow even more useless than it was pre-revisit.

[Darkmatt3r]

5 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, the obvious issues with DE's idea of reworking revisiting Ash were pin pointed roughly on the same Devstream they announced that they were going to change blade storm. About six months later they showed BS targeting and people once again actual Ash users pointed all the issues it would create, and about another 4 or 5 F-ing months later DE released the "revisit" roughly unchanged from what they showed on that stream, and the response was pretty much the same, granted it is better than the horror we expected, but still is a half-arsed job. At first one could somewhat understand what with the whole TWW in the process of being developed, but later they upped themselves by releasing the all powerful Nidus with awesome mechanics, which meant they could have delayed the rework another month or two to give us a true rework that solved the issues players have been pointing out for 3 years, or at least keep doing little to average changes based on feedback, something they didn't at all, looking at the 90+ pages of megathread without ANY change whatsoever. And Ash is still sh*T in Conclave too, Blade Storm somehow even more useless than it was pre-revisit.

I feel you brother/sister ^__^

[Grahnz]

I actually really like the animation and its cinematics, but it definitely does last a lot longer than it should. Even if they don't decide to change his BS again, that energy cost really needs to be fixed. It's incredibly difficult to be energy efficient while boosting his power strength. You could focus on efficiency, but at that point the damage is pretty much useless for later content.

Wasn't the first version of Blade Storm (when Ash was first released) more mobile and less cinematic? Like you could freely move around with it? They've already boosted his mobility with smoke screen, so a change that incorporates that philosophy would be neat.   

That or just show the cinematic animation once and let the clones do the rest lol.

[Nazrethim]

8 hours ago, Grahnz said:

I actually really like the animation and its cinematics, but it definitely does last a lot longer than it should. Even if they don't decide to change his BS again, that energy cost really needs to be fixed. It's incredibly difficult to be energy efficient while boosting his power strength. You could focus on efficiency, but at that point the damage is pretty much useless for later content.

Animation can be speed up with Fury (P) or Quickening, don't use Berserker, it doesn't work on BS for being a buff.

I think reducing mark cost to 10 (5 while invi) would be fine. Or make the initial mark per target cost 15 and the 2nd and 3rd mark cost 5.

You don't actually need power strenght for Ash, just Body Count and a good melee, Blade Storm damage is affected by combo counter, so keeping a high combo counter works wonders.

Quote

Wasn't the first version of Blade Storm (when Ash was first released) more mobile and less cinematic? Like you could freely move around with it? They've already boosted his mobility with smoke screen, so a change that incorporates that philosophy would be neat.   

Have you seen the Conclave animation for bladestorm? Ash appearing next to target and stabbing the neck? That was Blade Storm original animation, for everything. It worked exactly as it does now, minus the individual target marking. Later they added cool animations and clones to boost it's crowd clearing potential and speed it up. The best way to make Blade Storm interactive and mobile is to make it a stance ultimate

Quote

That or just show the cinematic animation once and let the clones do the rest lol.

That was what DE, and people who know better (you can tell because their suggestions include a lot of attention to detail) tried to avoid, well, people who knew better did, because when DE proposed World on Bladestorm the general response was "Oh please no, no more mindless spammable abilities! no more hiding behind a corner while the game plays itself!". I guess DE didn't get the message entirely. Or they were just busy polishing Nidus infested tentacles to care about giving Ash a proper rework.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

I actually really like the cinematics. It was the reason I started playing him to begin with. As far as his energy cost I'd say that has more to do with how you have him modded. I personally haven't had a problem with energy cost while using him and I can still clear crowds in sortie missions. Give yourself a naromon lense and arcane trickery and you should have no problem with cost going forward. I personally don't either in or out of invisibility

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Knuckles2184 said:

I actually really like the cinematics. It was the reason I started playing him to begin with. As far as his energy cost I'd say that has more to do with how you have him modded. I personally haven't had a problem with energy cost while using him and I can still clear crowds in sortie missions. Give yourself a naromon lense and arcane trickery and you should have no problem with cost going forward. I personally don't either in or out of invisibility

Having cinematics isn't THAT bad, cinematics for EVERY SINGLE KILL is. Prior Ash was brandet doing nothing but spamming BS, what was a issue by itself. No fatal one as it was a choice (the most effecfive one but still). BS was changed to avoid spamming but his clones were removed so now you do less, spending the same ammount of time beein stuck in the animation while you attack enemys one by one. That's a fact. So is the spent energy per enemy ...it's among the highest if not THE highest per enemy energy cost in the game imo. This rework was one big mess, pushing the agenda that he does finisher damage to compensate for it... He does good damage, that's true but enemys aren't that strong to begin with and there's auras and tools to avoid armor anyways, so it's really no reason to place it that much to the limmit of beein completely broken nerfed.

[(PSN)Smooth81Criminal]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Having cinematics isn't THAT bad, cinematics for EVERY SINGLE KILL is. Prior Ash was brandet doing nothing but spamming BS, what was a issue by itself. No fatal one as it was a choice (the most effecfive one but still). BS was changed to avoid spamming but his clones were removed so now you do less, spending the same ammount of time beein stuck in the animation while you attack enemys one by one. That's a fact. So is the spent energy per enemy ...it's among the highest if not THE highest per enemy energy cost in the game imo. This rework was one big mess, pushing the agenda that he does finisher damage to compensate for it... He does good damage, that's true but enemys aren't that strong to begin with and there's auras and tools to avoid armor anyways, so it's really no reason to place it that much to the limmit of beein completely broken nerfed.

Ash's clones weren't removed they are still there. They just attack after you do if the enemy survived the first hit. That's actually one of the benefits for efficiency. If his clone kills an enemy for you, that energy also gets refunded back to you, I've actually seen it happen. His cinematic still doesn't bother me, regardless of how many enemies he does it to. I'm not saying the energy cost doesn't suck because it completely does. But I am saying that it's manageable

Edited February 12, 2017 by (PS4)Knuckles2184

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Knuckles2184 said:

Ash's clones weren't removed they are still there. They just attack after you do if the enemy survived the first hit. That's actually one of the benefits for efficiency. If his clone kills an enemy for you, that energy also gets refunded back to you, I've actually seen it happen. His cinematic still doesn't bother me, regardless of how many enemies he does it to. I'm not saying the energy cost doesn't suck because it completely does. But I am saying that it's manageable

It totally is. One can 100% drop duration and range ever since the rework occured and replace it with utility, power management, that's in fact what i did with his build. It after all doesn't even matter what kind of invisibility ash has going for the reduction...be it SB invis, naramon or trickery. Never noticed that there's still clones attackig after you (probably bc i gained around 90% power strength on top), difference to the original BS is still that the clones attacked SIMULTANEOUS and kept the casting time relatively short. And that, that was the aspect that screwed it over for me....

The worst part about BS was allways getting stuck on high leveled eximus units and they made this a permanent state instead of making it better >.> They addet a setup phase....really, what's the point in making it that long lasting? They had the choice to make people suffer less from the animation, the one thing that bothered people at all, to reduce it to a bare minimum without making him OP in any way but they only made it worse, running the agenda that he would become OP if they didn't while making him significantly weaker in the first place. It's a joke man.

Edited February 13, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Somethinglurks]

So it's 2/13/17 and the Ash Rework (bladestorm change) was a resounding success and everyone now plays more ash!   ......wait

Edited February 13, 2017 by Somethinglurks

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 12/29/2016 at 4:36 AM, Fallosssss said:

2nd ability - Invisibility + x-ray vision through walls. In this ability you see all in grayscale, enemy is red and the ally is green. You can kill the enemy only by finisher attack (with finisher animation) and you can teleport through wall only to ally.
This make Ash more different than Loki with 2nd ability

I Love this idea for X-Ray, predator sort of tracking ability with his invisibility.

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

Yea I wasn't thrilled they didn't find a way to not sit through that animation but I do like the way it functions now.

[Oranji]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.10.1

• You can now access Chat while Ash is performing his Bladestorm.

 

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

•  You can now access Chat while Ash is performing his Bladestorm. 
• I got nuthin , speaks for itself   

[MagPrime]

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

and why is that trolly?